Moderation on "What Is a Woman?" Post

snoopydoop on 03/06/2023 - 12:22
Last edited 03/06/2023 - 12:55

On recommendation from a moderator, I'm writing here to discuss/clarify on what I feel is inconsistent and insufficient moderation on this controversial post.
Please be civil in these comments - I don't want arguments, and am posting this in good faith in order to hopefully improve the site - not start fights.

There are two main issues I wanted to bring up here:
1) Inconsistency with deal being allowed to be posted in the first place
2) Genuinely problematic comments not being moderated effectively enough on a post which is clearly going to generate them.

Inconsistency with deal being allowed to be posted

The reason that a moderator gave in the comments as to why this deal was allowed is a "documentary which is not usually free thus meets the standards for a deal".

This inspired me to search for an almost identical circumstance (but intentionally not a political/inflammatory one). I truly posted what I would perceive a deal in the same vein. It was a documentary about YouTuber MrBeast, which has been professionally created by streaming service Curiosity Stream. It is available paid on their streaming service, and even has an official IMDB page.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17008854/

Curiosity Stream has uploaded this for free to their YouTube channel - a documentary which is usually paid for, which is now available for free, thus qualifying for a deal under posting guidelines.
My post was immediately moved to the forums, then removed, and I even received an account warning for posting. ("Trolling level 1")

I personally see no differences between these two posts - this I Am A Woman documentary has been posted specifically to generate comments and outrage, and is by its nature no less genuine a documentary than the MrBeast one on Curiosity Stream's subscription service.

This makes me feel like the reason it has been kept up is for some sort of political point, or moderation bias. I'd love some clarification for whether this is not the case - but I do not see how my own post could have been seen as "trolling" or "inflammatory", when this original post is arguably one of the most inflammatory "troll" posts that has ever been posted on the site. Which brings me to point 2….

Problematic Comments on the Post

When the media posts an article that could attract inflammatory comments, due to the 2021 High Court ruling puting the onus on publications for comments published on their website, they ensure that they have full moderation capabilities to ensure there are no hateful comments. When this moderation capability is no longer available, comments are closed, either temporarily while they catch up, or for good.
However, given there has been moderation for the duration this post has been up (eg. on my post), there has been some level of moderation capacity during this time, despite it being Friday/Saturday.

There are quite a few substantially hateful comments in this thread. I am specifically talking about comments that are genuinely hateful.

Probably the biggest is there are a large number perpetuating the conspiracy theory that the LGBTQIA+ community as a whole grooms children.. This is a view with neo-Nazi roots, and is well documented.
I mean, there is a comment up there right now saying "Destroy pedo freaks", a slogan that the neo-nazi group recently held up in Melbourne.
This is absolutely not the only comment that is blatantly hateful, there are many like it there. Perhaps others can point out the worst offenders. (EDIT: Removed ~2.5hrs after commented - plenty more with similar rhetoric that have been up for a long time)

If it is OzBargain's decision that posts like these are allowed to be up there - they absolutely need to make sure that the comments published are not hateful, and are well moderated. Otherwise it certainly comes across as acceptance of these comments. This is not very welcoming of LGBTQIA+ members of this website.
It was clear from the get go that the decision to keep this post up would require incredible amounts of moderation, given it was posted with the intention of aggravation, and keeping comments such as this one up there is upsetting to see that OzBargain is happily publishing these comments.

TLDR: I am disappointed in OzBargain's decision to leave this post up, their decision to give me an account warning for a far less inflammatory version of the same type of post, and the fact that there are many hateful comments rooted in neo-Nazi ideology currently on the website, still not moderated. To be clear - I am not talking about all comments in favour of this as a deal, I am talking very specifically about the blatantly hateful comments.

Site Discussion

Comments

Pirateguybrush on 03/06/2023 - 12:31

+97

Well said. The post should be removed.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:35
  
  +31
  
  I assume you mean this post
  - - capslock janitor on 03/06/2023 - 17:25
      
      +8
      
      Both posts should stay up
      - Scrooge McDuck on 03/06/2023 - 23:40
        
        +9
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: Sticks and stones may break my bones but words are worse than Hitler.
        
        chepsk8 on 04/06/2023 - 13:36
        
        -6
        
        @Scrooge McDuck: Words are what led to Hitler having the power that he did.
        
        Scrooge McDuck on 04/06/2023 - 16:27
        
        +6
        
        @chepsk8: No, the Nazis implemented censorship:
        
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Nazi_Germany
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 00:05
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        I mean yeah, I don't agree with the rules as they currently are but if this is what they are then they need to be enforced consistently
        
        Which rules?
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 01:10
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        Could've let OPs Mr Beast documentary post stay up (proving a point isn't against the rules, I checked) and shouldnt be moving other documentary posts to the forums when they count as a deal under the guidelines you linked to in one of your comments (Free Multimedia Content & Websites).
        
        The deal was removed for trolling. Not for what you mentioned.
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 01:35
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: When someone's intention is not posting a bargain, e.g. a joke post, or a post to prove some point in another thread then it's considered trolling. Nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with subject matter.
        
        It's similar to how we audit votes, ban sockpuppets, etc to ensure deals are authentic.
        
        Sorry for the repetition, I think it got lost in another comment chain.
        
        Kangal on 04/06/2023 - 01:55
        
        +4
        
        @neil: While I usually come to the defence of OzBargain, you guys really dropped the ball on this one. And it wasn't too surprising, because you've dropped the ball several times before.
        
        I am in support that OzBargain needs to make an apology to SnoopyDoop and other members. And that it should remove that What Is a Woman post. They should review the official guidelines and rules, and revise them to make them easier to understand and follow.
        
        With that said, I think it is great that we can share our ideas and opinions here. Some censorship may be a good thing (?). However, absolute control or censorship is self-evidently a bad thing. So I don't want OzBargain to get worse. It is not perfect now but it is not bad, in my honest opinion.
        
        Context: I've seen that documentary, it was entertaining and I agree with it. So I am not against that documentary in particular. BUT just because I've seen it does not make me right-wing, and I don't identify as such. If anything, people classify me as left-wing or centrist. I am against any extreme views from the right or the left. I am always-for what is ethical and morally right, which does not always align with what is legal. Overall I am not a fan of divisive actions, nor do I like politicised things, yet I do get exposed to it and do my due diligence to reduce its effects on myself (skepticism, research, etc etc).
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 02:01
        
        @Kangal:
        
        And it wasn't too surprising, because you've dropped the ball several times before.
        
        Examples?
        
        I am in support that OzBargain needs to make an apology to SnoopyDoop and other members.
        
        For?
        
        They should review the official guidelines and rules, and revise them to make them easier to understand and follow.
        
        I agree. We do write these guidelines with a perspective of a moderator to a user which may not be obvious to everyon. Might have to think about maybe getting someone not super familiar with OzBargain to read and see if they make sense.
        
        Kangal on 04/06/2023 - 02:17
        
        +2
        
        @neil:
        
        Examples?
        
        Will send in PM
        
        For?
        
        For the account warning "Trolling Level 1" which is undeserved. Also for removing the hateful comments only after they've been criticised by other members, despite actively moderating the thread.
        
        For?
        
        Most controversial for not removing that "deal/post" first. It is a case of something which is obvious and leads to controversial comments. Again, I think the documentary itself is fine, but in the confines of a thread, probably not good. You could have moderated it better…. or perhaps just locked the comments very early on whilst keeping the deal still posted up. I don't want to see OzBargain be "at the mercy" of liberals or conservatives. You should have the power to do what you do best, but sometimes you need to do better.
        
        I agree. We do write these guidelines with a perspective of a moderator to a user which may not be obvious to everyon. Might have to think about maybe getting someone not super familiar with OzBargain to read and see if they make sense.
        
        Thank you. Not sure if I can help in any way; I do constantly criticise my own communication skills.
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 02:30
        
        @Kangal:
        
        For the account warning "Trolling Level 1" which is undeserved
        
        Respectfully, it is deserved and is consistent with our moderation guidelines.
        
        Also for removing the hateful comments only after they've been criticised by other members, despite actively moderating the thread.
        
        We have 100,000+ comments per month and we don't read every comment posted on the site. We ask that users use the report link underneath a comment so we act on them.
        
        Most controversial for not removing that "deal/post" first.
        
        It meets the criteria for a deal.
        
        perhaps just locked the comments very early on whilst keeping the deal still posted up.
        
        This interferes with voting. IMO,I think reporting comments after the fact while not immediate is better than interfering with active discussions within a dynamic discussion forum.
        
        Not sure if I can help in any way; I do constantly criticise my own communication skills.
        
        Cheers. Might hit you up on that.
        
        Andrew0415 on 05/06/2023 - 08:58
        
        -2
        
        @neil: Sorry but this is just an unacceptable response. Whether you allowed the documentary to be posted as a deal or not is up for debate but Blind Freddy could see that such a post would attract numerous hateful and bigoted comments which would demand more active moderation than simply relying on reports. No one is asking you to read every single comment on every single deal but even you have to now concede that this was not just some standard everyday post. This is some serious shit - publishing hateful rhetoric can have massive impact on the mental health and wellbeing of an already vulnerable community. There has to be a middle ground between locking every potentially controversial thread and the posthoc, laissez faire approach you've adopted in this case.
        
        letmesee on 04/06/2023 - 21:07
        
        @neil: Can you rule out the decision to leave up the post, was because it provided the site with high traffic and engagement rates, which benefits your future marketing to partners and sponsors. Just asking because it seems you're tripping over yourself to justify the decision.
        
        Moderatorneil on 04/06/2023 - 21:45
        
        @letmesee:
        
        Can you rule out the decision to leave up the post, was because it provided the site with high traffic and engagement rates, which benefits your future marketing to partners and sponsors.
        
        100%. Moderation has nothing to do with high traffic and engagement rates.
        
        We don't have marketing partners or sponsors. OzBargain is an independent site.
        
        Just asking because it seems you're tripping over yourself to justify the decision.
        
        Where did I trip up? I'm only providing facts & data for a lot of assumptions made.
        
        letmesee on 04/06/2023 - 23:53
        
        +1
        
        @neil: Ok ill take you on your word that had no role, but you're tripping up because you've allowed a standard to be set that is not within what this site is about. What will you do now when the site gets flooded with doco's of questionable reputation and factual content, that are now deliberately made free for a limited time to qualify as a deal. I can only tell you my opinion and that is I will look for an alternative bargain site if ozbargain turns into a shit show.
        
        leiiv on 14/06/2023 - 16:03
        
        @neil:
        
        When someone's intention is not posting a bargain, e.g. a joke post, or a post to prove some point in another thread then it's considered trolling.
        
        How do you judge on someone's intention? It is totally subjective and it is where the moderator "bias" comes in.
        So far, you only stated that the post was "removed for trolling". But can you give an objective reasoning on why is it a troll post while the "What Is a Woman?" post is not considered as trolling?
        
        cookie2 on 04/06/2023 - 20:33
        
        +2
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: Sorry how was the deal post bigoted?
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 15:22
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        happy to voice how much they hate or dislike trans people,
        
        You are lying again
        Infront of everyone here, I challenge you to find me atleast few comments where people are ‘hating’ on trans people
        Don’t digress, just give me the comments
        
        And if you can’t find any, you need to apologise here and admit the dirty game that you lot are playing.
        Good lad
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 15:34
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: Well, link to one of those then and just roughly tell me what was said.
        I’d make the effort to get that user to share a screenshot of what was actually written.
        I can find you Atleast 10 comments of people that were being abusive towards the op or anyone that agree with the existence of that doc. And I can tell you what they had written in those comments.
        
        That was a busy post too and most people that were against it are here too, any of you? Find me those trans hating comments that you lot keep falsely alleging. I was there, I read nearly all of them and I’d be the first one to call anyone like that out.
        And btw I also do see the tactic you people play too, falsely allege people to be transphobe, racist etc just because they don’t agree with everything you say and you know those are some very heavy words too.. it just breaks the other person because of their conscientious natures.
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 16:11
        
        +9
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        Anyone who liked the documentary hates trans folks
        
        I liked the documentary and I don't hate trans folks. I support any adult wishing to transition - what people do to themselves with their own money or in their own bedrooms is none of my business.
        
        the presenter literally calls them child abusers in the documentary along with insulting and demeaning them in numerous other ways
        
        Please provide timestamps for any of these claims. He called out 'Doctors', 'Therapists', academics and others who are pushing trans ideology to children.
        
        Why do people on the radical left engage in ridiculous hyperbole such as this? Throwing around asinine insults such as "Nazi", "bigot", whatever-phobe etc. and assuming that there's so much hate when very little or none really exists in reality doesn't bolster your cause, it makes you look desperate and childish because you're incapable of constructing meaningful arguments against topics you don't like or make you feel uncomfortable. Grow up and learn to engage in constructive dialogue without seeking to be so offended by everything.
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 16:52
        
        +6
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        Liking the documentary means you hate trans folks or at LEAST don't properly consider them
        
        False dichotomy fallacy. I just told you I liked the documentary and I don't hate trans people and in fact support adults who transition on their own dime. Your arguments aren't based on any kind logic or rational reasoning. I've watched and enjoyed hundreds of documentaries and movies on the Nazis - does that make me a Nazi?
        
        the presenter literally calls them child abusers in the documentary along with insulting and demeaning them in numerous other ways
        
        I'm doubling back to these claims you made and failed to respond to. You need to provide timestamps for all of these claims, otherwise you're engaging in more fallacious arguments by deliberately being deceptive and engaging in libel.
        
        Ah, so people who know what they are talking about both in general and the topic at hand?
        
        Did you get the impression from the documentary that any of these so-called experts provided well reasoned arguments for promoting and encouraging children to transition and did you agree with the methodologies, chemicals and surgery they used to mutilate these children? Did you get the impression that these people were well grounded in reality and had the best interests of the children in mind? I certainly didn't.
        
        CoreArchitect on 07/06/2023 - 09:57
        
        +5
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: bro - your opinion just isn't that good. Kudos to the guys for trying to explain it to you in more reasonable terms. I wouldn't bother, frankly. You're just combative without knowing how to debate or structure a point.
        
        Liking the documentary means you hate trans folks
        
        LOL really? Back in your hole, that a ludicrous position.
        
        SBOB on 05/06/2023 - 16:33
        
        @gyrex:
        
        Why do people on the radical left engage in ridiculous hyperbole such as this?
        
        I don't think ridiculous hyperbole or misrepresentation of information, is exclusive to the 'radical left'.
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 16:36
        
        +4
        
        @SBOB: Probably not exclusive but it definitely seems more prevalent as demonstrated in this thread. There's a lot more childish name calling and insults being thrown around from those who oppose the documentary.
        
        SBOB on 05/06/2023 - 16:52
        
        +1
        
        @gyrex:
        
        Probably not exclusive but it definitely seems more prevalent as demonstrated in this thread
        
        likely depends which end of the football field you're yelling from, as to which posts you find 'ridiculous hyperbole' compared to 'playful banter'.
        
        for example, doesnt stop those on the right end of the field making 'claims' with images to support their argument saying they are from a 'family friendly pride march', for an image thats easily google'd to show its about 10 years old.
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13846652/redir
        
        hyperbole, lies, exaggeration or misrepresentation of information are equal opportunity. They don't care which side of the argument they are used by, as long as they get to run onto the field :)
        
        ihfree on 05/06/2023 - 16:53
        
        @gyrex: Fake news, mate. Looking at unpublished comments and ignoring personal attacks, you'd be looking at :
        
        7 from people who support the doco
        
        1 inconclusive
        
        1 from 'the radical left'
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 17:07
        
        +1
        
        @ihfree: We have no idea what's in the unpublished comments so it's pretty hard to make any kind of determination on the veracity of those claims. My comment was mainly related to all of the completely unfounded and childish "Nazi", "bigot", "*-phobe", "hate" peddling etc. claims made by those on the left which are littered throughout the comments. Maybe I'm wrong but it's just something I've noticed as I've scrolled through the pages of comments.
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 19:05
        
        +2
        
        @SBOB: Ofcos you only interject selectively
        
        Maybe the mods should give you the ‘assoaciacted’ tag permanently so it’s obvious to everyone how biased you are with these things.
        You are way brighter than I am, why not ever play fair. You know as I do where the majority of this toxic and abusive be rhetoric comes from. You saw the afternoon posts about ‘Matt is a Pedo’ bs.
        
        Also You can see how how he’s^^ outright accusing the other fella of hating trans folks just coz he watched and doesn’t hate that documentary.
        Why not ever call such behaviour out?
        
        Anyways, hope you are well. Its been a long time.
        
        SBOB on 05/06/2023 - 19:13
        
        +2
        
        @Gervais fanboy:
        
        it’s obvious to everyone how biased you are with these things.
        
        We can't all be as moderate and impartial as you.
        
        You saw the afternoon posts about ‘Matt is a Pedo’ bs
        
        Yep, and agreed their stupid rant should be left up. Too bad the mods didn't agree.
        
        So that would say I've called out a crazy on both sides.
        Similarly, why don't you call out the blatant misinformation, such as that the post I linked to claiming an image was from the 'family friendly march'. You've got plenty of posts in the thread calling out the clear lunacy of some on the far left, I don't see any by you calling out any on the far right.
        
        Why not ever call such behaviour out?
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 19:32
        
        +1
        
        @SBOB:
        
        We can't all be as moderate and impartial as you.
        
        🤣
        And I wish I was as funny as you
        
        Yep, and agreed their stupid rant should be left up.
        
        Okay, that does silence some of my argument then. My bad.
        I got a notification about your comment but by the time i got there, the post was already gone.
        
        such as that the post I linked to claiming an image was from the 'family friendly march'
        
        I saw it right after I commented and I was determined to call it out until I saw that pic right then.
        And he was right to mock it by calling it a ‘family friendly march’
        That man was on a public street in complete daylight, you don’t think there were kids or some decent folks around or do you think he didn’t know there would be kids around on a public street but he dressed like that anyways..
        And given how crazy and ‘progressive’ some libs are, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was someone there that had brought their kids with them.
        (Btw I don’t think they broke any laws there so I respect their rights but I like @franco would definitely ridicule or atleast disagree with something like that)
        
        I don't see any by you calling out any on the far right.
        
        Firstly, what do you mean by ‘far right’
        Serious question, you mean like Nazis???
        
        Anyways, If are talking about lying or unreasonable conservatives
        You know that’s not true either
        Just for example - You have seen me call Slav out soo many times.
        Talk about something recent - The recent anti-Trump book post. I argued against people negging it and claiming that it wasn’t a ‘deal’ when it technically was.
        Let me go through this thread and I’ll definitely call out the ones that outright lie like the fella I mentioned did.
        
        SBOB on 05/06/2023 - 19:40
        
        +3
        
        @Gervais fanboy:
        
        And he was right to mock it by calling it a ‘family friendly march’
        
        they didnt mock it, they claimed
        that was from a family friendly pride march too
        
        so, they either found a ~10 year old image, or just regurgitated whatever garbage they'd read elsewhere, and then claimed it was from such a march. Being 'on a street' doesnt make it family friendly. Plenty of "out there" rallies for "out there", perfectly consenting adults, held in parts of the world where its know to be far from family friendly events… many of them with perfectly straight "out there" people also. I'm not rocking up to them, doesnt mean I'll use a pic from one and lie about its source to make a point.
        
        If you have to lie about the image source to further the argument, then we're right back to ridiculous hyperbole or misrepresentation of information. If you get called out about lying about the image source, and double down.. well.. guess it depends which end of the football field you're yelling from as to whether you notice it or not.
        
        Im impressed we went full circle to proving my point in one one post :)
        Thats got to be a record.
        
        I'll quit while I'm ahead :)
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 20:38
        
        -1
        
        @SBOB:
        
        that was from a family friendly pride march too
        
        If the objection is that he’s slandering ‘pride’ marches in general.
        Then that’s wrong, okay now I understand your point against it. I just read the rest of the thread too.
        As it is they get a bad rep and one shouldn’t add to it by lying (?)
        Also, the ‘blocked you’ was just 🤦🏻‍♂️
        Let’s see if he responds.
        
        Being 'on a street' doesnt make it family friendly. Plenty of "out there" rallies for "out there", perfectly consenting adults, held in parts of the world where its know to be far from family friendly events… many of them with perfectly straight "out there" people also.
        
        And they are just as disgusting imo
        The body movement whatever, girls walking butt naked on streets.
        Love women but that sh*t was just repulsive,
        You can’t use a past precedent of something being disgusting that happened on the streets to justify others.
        None of this crap is family friendly but I still think if you are in public there should be some basic civility and decency. Ideally public marches should be family friendly.
        But that’s it, I wouldn’t want to ban it either.
        
        doesnt mean I'll use a pic from one and lie about its source to make a point.
        
        Point
        
        If you have to lie about the image source to further the argument, then we're right back to ridiculous hyperbole or misrepresentation of information. If you get called out about lying about the image source, and double down.
        
        Hallelujah, I agree
        And my point was that you keep the same energy when you encounter such dumbass from all sides.
        I believe you are very partial when you don’t have to be..
        
        Im impressed we went full circle to proving my point in one one post :
        
        Okay 🤣 but come on, we can still work on your numbers. You could do better than 95%vs5% (calling out left wing libs vs Right wing D.Heads)
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 16:21
        
        +2
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        Anyone who liked the documentary hates trans folks
        
        I asked you for some trans hating comments (you suggested those comments existed not me) and you came back with this?
        I clearly said ‘no digression’
        
        the presenter literally calls them child abusers
        
        He call some ‘people’ child abusers and groomers.
        Didn’t say that Trans people are abusers and groomers.
        You keep playing this dirty game of manipulation and slander.
        It’s like saying all straight people ever are pedophiles, eventhough most pedophiles ever were probably straight.
        
        and demeaning them in numerous other ways even while interviewing people
        
        So in your opinion, he was merely ‘rude’ to them and now anyone watching that documentary must hates trans people?
        
        pretend like it's some unbiased masterpiece when it's just a thinly veiled attack on trans people
        
        Attack ?
        Everything’s an attack for you lot. You can’t help but use these buzzwords can you?
        Anyways, please actually watch the darn thing. All he did was ask them questions, yes he came from a bias and yes he was persistent.
        He was only asking them questions, didn’t impose his worldview on any of them or lectured any of them.
        
        for people who already hate
        
        Planet’s got almost 8 billion people on it.
        There’s nothing that exists that someome somewhere doesn’t hate. I bet there’s people that hate sleeping babies and cute puppies.
        But for you to suggest he only made that documentary for people that hate Trans people is nuts.
        
        Who can blame people for being pissed about a documentary that contributes to hatred towards them or groups of people they care about?
        
        More drivel.
        Asking questions and not automatically agreeing with someone isn’t being hateful.
        I see privileged libs here loathing capitalism and the free market enterprise using their iPhones meanwhile endorsing Socialism all day whilst still living in and enjoying everything that the West has to offer. Despite their obvious hypocrisy, they are not hateful, they are just sceptical.
        Also the Libs that feel like challenging everything that’s been time tested and works like ‘Gender norms’ for example(Also not hateful imo) even though they say it’s all white privilege, oppression, colonialism, all that madness
        
        people who disagree with the documentary that you consider abusive is because the other ones were so much worse, and is also because you're likely blind and ignorant.
        
        Okay, find me those series of comments then. Where people from opposite camps had their comments taken down as ‘personal attack’ etc
        
        Just look at how sneaky and rude you are, all I did was ask you to back yourself.
        You lied, just admit it, I’ll respect you for it and go away
        
        Just took two seconds to look and here's one that's been up for hours: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13849406/redir Troon is a slur :)
        
        Just looked up the literal definition of it,
        
        “Poorly-socialized male-at-birth who was mostly raised by screens (TV, computer, etc.) rather than their parents.”
        
        That’s as hateful a slur towards all Trans folks ever as the word ‘incel’ is to every straight person ever.
        Some straight people are D.Heads, some Trans People are D.Heads.
        Calling someone in particular out doesn’t mean someone’s going against every person from their sub group. It’s soo disingenuous to suggest otherwise. There were a lot of crazies in that post and calling them out isn’t being ‘Transphobic’
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 17:22
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        he sees gender ideology as bullshit as a whole
        
        Why is it so important to accept modern concepts of gender ideology?
        
        I don't mean to sound condescending but you do realise that one can reject the ideological concepts, reject the ideology being taught in schools or pushed to children but still accept trans adults and accept whatever decisions they make with respect to transitioning? This seems like something which a lot of proponents of the ideology aren't grasping. I honestly believe a lot of people on here who enjoyed the documentary don't hate trans people and the majority of them don't care what they do with/to themselves but reject the ideology and vehemently oppose the ideology being pushed onto children - what's the issue with this?
        
        Do we all have to accept wholesale the ideology in your eyes? I'm an anti-theist but accept that people will still believe in their god/religion despite me believing that their religion is dangerous and destructive. Are most of them generally well intentioned people who have been hoodwinked/indoctrinated into it and erroneously feel that their beliefs are innocuous, yes.
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 17:36
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: Your entire response is a strawman fallacy and nearly every comment you've made is dripping with fallacious arguments. As such, I refuse to engage with someone who continues to use fallacious arguments despite being called out on them because you're being deliberately disingenuous.
        
        gyrex on 05/06/2023 - 17:45
        
        -1
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: I'm sorry you're incapable of grasping that logically fallacious arguments aren't valid and I'd suggest you investigate why logically sound reasoning is important if you're going to engage in discussion and debate.
        
        You can start here: https://www.mindtools.com/afwgbcu/logical-fallacies
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 18:09
        
        +1
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        “the literal definition"
        
        Firstly this is the literal definition of the word.
        https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/dutch-english/tr…
        Yes, there are other informal definitions too which we’ll get to now.
        
        Bro used the top result of urban dictionary
        scroll down bud and look at different sources
        
        Yeah just had a look and you’re right there’s a lot of different interpretations that it’s possibly used in too.
        The most commonly used being Troon - Transgnder (Tr) + Loon(oon)
        Going back to @john452’s comment (the one you had referenced) and the content and wording of it, he was talking about the crazies that were in that forum.
        (You are now implying an alternate malicious intent to it even though you can’t prove it and you are using that as evidence?? Eventhough he posted that after your false allegations happened)
        
        that "troon" is a slur used against trans people
        
        Sometimes it’s maybe used as a slur, not always.
        It’s not like the N word but you are trying to make it seem like one aka The Alphabet Mob.
        
        your lack of understanding about trans people and inability to do the most bare minimum of due diligence in general is definitely not showing!
        
        You told me about ‘Troon’, I looked it up and am still further discussing it with you.
        Unlike you I am not a liar or a manipulator.
        You FALSELY alleged for the existence of Tran-Hating comments and in response you have shared one link of a comment that was posted way way after you made that allegation.
        And you are using that as evidence, wow. How do you live with such little integrity about yourself.
        Mind you, that comment was picking on the crazies in that thread and not every decent Tran person ever.
        
        Walsh you'd know he sees gender ideology as bullshit as a whole,
        
        Yes, so do I
        I think kids are being brainwashed and the majority of other people disagree with it but they stay quiet coz in their heads they go ‘Let them believe what they wanna believe, it’s not affecting us yet’
        Some others don’t stay as quiet because they can see the damage these delusions are causing to the society. It’s affecting policies and free speech norms in almost every country now.
        Having said all of that, Matt and so do I here agree with personal liberty. You can do whatever you want in your life.
        He said that he’s okay with gender affirmation surgeries but for adults and not kids.
        Just that, if you wanna impose your opinions on others and teach it to kids, you will be challenged for it. That’s all, like every other idea that exists (good or bad) you’ll be challenged and questioned for them.
        Onus is on you to make better arguments, that’s how it is with almost everything else ever.
        But weirdly with the Trans movement, you lot can’t tolerate any debates or questioning, instantly you start being nasty and start claiming victimhood over everything.
        
        was that it's clearly biased against trans people from the start
        
        Wtf 🤦🏻‍♂️
        It was as biased against Trans people as any ‘Earth is round’ documentary is biased against the ‘Flat earthers’ and vice versa Ofcos
        Ofcos there’s disagreement but they use points to make their own case.
        Matt tried talking to many Trans ‘experts’ and only a few agreed to talk, he asked’em tough questions and didn’t interrupt them.
        There’s a pattern emerging of you not happy with this idea of anyone daring to question you guys at all.
        You harm your own movement by being soo dictatorial.
        
        So the comments are not targeted at trans people
        It contributes to the "trans people are groomers" rhetoric, i
        
        You keep repeating that BS
        Asked you soo many times now, what comments? What bloody comments?
        
        Have you actually convinced yourself that something exists when it clearly doesn’t???
        
        I wrote a short comment to you, asking you to backup your slander.
        And now here you are telling me everything but what I requested from you.
        And it’s somewhat my fault too, out of respect replying to your other nonsense. I thought maybe you would have a debate with some goodwill here.
        
        Anyways, you can reply to me and have your last say. Cool.
        Just have your opinions but please stop lying,
        I am sure there’s good innocent trans people here that might fall for your lies and might believe some of them.
        You’re only furthering the divide with your malicious allegations.
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 18:34
        
        +2
        
        @AwesomeSaucem: Could have made the effort to atleast quote them but sure, I’ll take whatever I can get. Thanks
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13845617/redir
        
        “trans perverts should be allowed to live in peace but away from children. They must not be allowed to push their agendas on to vulnerable kids”
        
        Only talking about ‘some’ trans folks that target kids, preaching sexuality to them.
        That’s not Hating Trans People
        (Lie #1)
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13846385/redir
        
        “ they hate when people don’t call them using their comically imaginary pronouns but have the audacity to freely call actual men and women ‘cis’. no such thing as cis.”
        
        Firstly, what does the pronouns crowd having anything to do with Trans people.
        There’s way more non-Trans people that play that pronoun game than there are Trans people in total.
        You accused me of not knowing enough, i clearly know way more about all of this than you do. And plus, I am not lying about anything
        But you clearly are
        
        Anyways, The user criticised the notion of mandating speech on someone meanwhile calling them ‘cis’
        The hypocrisy of it.🤦🏻‍♂️
        
        That’s not hating Trans people either
        ( Lie #2)
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/779013?page=23 Oh look, one of them is you
        
        “lol, how is he a Nazi ‘adjacent’ or is that too just like one of your many genders, completely made up?”
        
        The fella called several people a Nazi, I ridiculed him and him only. He’s one of the ‘Troons’ that was maybe being referenced.
        Again, how does being a Bigender have anything to do with being Trans??
        I am quite certain now that you don’t know what you are talking about.
        (Lie #3)
        
        I’ll write a second comment soon, give me some time
        I have to go now.
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 21:38
        
        +3
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        Are you just going to continue assuming context that favours you?
        
        Firstly, that’s what you have been doing.
        Second, he said trans perverts should stay away from kids.
        That’s obvious isn’t it? Why is anyone getting close to anyone else’s kids anyways.
        Are you gonna play dumb and pretend that there’s no coordinated effort by the Libs in academia and on social media to indoctrinate the kids young so the tomorrow’s society would be how you guys want it to be? I could be blind as a bat and It would still be obvious for everyone to see.
        Just stay away from the kids, the entire Crux of this whole argument, you come close to the kids you’d get called a pervert.
        I’ll give you this though, he could have ideally worded it as Lib perverts or Woke perverts instead.
        Saying Trans perverts is semi-exclusionary language as there’s a lot of teachers that are perverts but not Transgender..
        We can all play our bit to be more inclusive and welcoming. I’ll dm him this as feedback.
        
        they're talking about "the trans who target kids" then why does that come later and have a separation to it?
        
        He/she doesn’t have to be perfect.
        Burden of proof lies upon you before you accuse someone of committing a crime but you don’t care about due process do you. Just straight to allegations.
        Did you even engage with the person to see where they stand on it?
        You can call him rude but to accuse them of a crime, you need to ascertain their position first and be 100% certain.
        
        Calling their pronouns "comically imaginary" is hateful, and trans people the vast majority of the time use different pronouns than what
        
        You are now adding conjecture to aid your far fetched argument.
        Pronouns crowd doesn’t necessarily mean the Trans community but yes a lot of Trans people play the pronouns game too.
        So you can swing and mould it to fit your narrative, yes.
        Regardless, It goes back to mandating speech, everyone should be against that.
        
        Okay I am done and out now
        The rest of your comment was nothing but digression. You can’t stick to the point.
        
        So in conclusion - People weren’t hating on Trans people but found them to be hateful because they don’t subscribe to the gender ideology curriculum that you clearly follow.
        They don’t believe in the same things that you do. (Bottom line)
        
        No one wished any harm or ill-will on Transpeople (as no one should Ofcos) but some were on the edge about the idea of someone trying to brainwash their kids, as they should be.
        
        You unfortunately find all of that to be hateful against Trans people as a whole.
        I didn’t know we were redefining words now too..Cool.
        Take care.
        
        Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 21:16
        
        +1
        
        @AwesomeSaucem:
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13843545/redir
        People can play dress up and make believe all they want but what irritates me and plenty of other people are things like men "Identifying" as a woman and competing against real women in sports. Of being placed in a female prison. Or being allowed to use female changing rooms.
        Bring in seperate sporting categories, prisons and changing rooms etc. You want equal rights? Lets have them.
        
        How is he hating on trans people?
        He’s supporting women’s rights and how they are being snatched away from them.
        Trans people should have their own athletics categories imo, anyone against that might be deemed as exclusionary or in compassionate.
        But that’s not what’s happened here
        (Lie #4)
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13842773/redir
        A woman is awesome. Grandmothers. Mothers. Sisters. Daughters.
        Sorry but chicks with dicks is not a woman. We can accept, tolerate and embrace those people even, but they are not woman. Not even close.
        
        Slightly Crude language, yes but that’s just basic biology.
        How’s that hating Trans???
        
        He’s not talking about coming to your home or in your ‘safe spaces’ to make you believe what he wants you to believe.
        Just like that you can’t force him to believe what you believe.
        He’s entitled to his beliefs, as you are entitled to yours.
        You lot think gender is merely a social construct, I am not knocking on your door to knock some sense into you and make you change your mind. I wouldn’t dare..
        (Lie #5)
        
        Maybe be more humble and be open to the idea that maybe just maybe you could be wrong about what you believe.
        I know I was when all of this started. I was raised in a home, no parents anymore, I was a rebellious little lib too.
        
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13842132/redir
        Lots of articles online on how the Alphabet is infiltrating our schools, drag stories at libraries etc.., join us at protesting and protecting our kids against these groomers otherwise we will end up like this Dad in Canada.
        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2021/03/canadia…
        
        He’s challenging policy and talking about teachers (not trans people but teachers) talking to little kids about sex when it’s not their right to do so but only the parents unless the parents provide consent for otherwise.
        If you are whinging about his use of the word ‘protest’, last time I checked it’s his civil right to organise and protest. This isn’t your communist utopian Cuba yet.
        For better context read the news publishing that he also shared
        Regardless, no where did he mention or talk about Trans people, you keep clutching straws.
        (Lie #6)
        
        I knew this was going to be a futile exercise but someone had to challenge your lies because again, a lot of good unassuming folks here would have just believed you for your drivel as why would someone stoop this low and lie like you have been doing…
        You have just cost your whole ‘movement’ more credibility than what they had to even begin with.
        What a shame.
- nomekop on 03/06/2023 - 21:50
  
  +16
  
  We all are entitled to our own perspectives and I really appreciate the fact that this platform allows for diverse views.
  Deleting posts just because they challenge our beliefs? That's falling into cancel culture.
  
  Contrary to what the original poster (OP) suggests, I don't believe the post was made purely to stir up controversy. To me, and plenty of others, the movie is an exceptional documentary.
  
  What we can agree on, though, is the need to manage negative comments from all sides of the conversation. Yet, advocating to remove a post? That's exactly where we're going wrong.
  - infinite on 03/06/2023 - 23:54
    
    +8
    
    We all are entitled to our own perspectives and I really appreciate the fact that this platform allows for diverse views.
    
    It's not just you, either.
    
    It's one of the most highly viewed and rated documentaries of 2022.
    
    IMDB score of 8.4 with over 30K reviews, RT average scores of 83% from known leftist critics, audience score of 96% with thousands of lengthy positive reviews from those on either side of the political isle.
  - Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 15:26
    
    +5
    
    99% of negative hateful, spiteful, abusive comments were from the people that were against that post staying up
    I read nearly all of them.
    - infinite on 05/06/2023 - 17:16
      
      +1
      
      Those people need some serious mental health help. The absolute vile levels of sickening hatred from them was just staggering.
      
      It's really about time the mod's here implement a rule against making false claims of "genocide" and the like. These people are extinction rebellion levels of unhinged.
Pcosmic on 03/06/2023 - 12:32

+3

🍿
SBOB on 03/06/2023 - 12:32

+5

You're unlikely to get any decent responses as, just like the post in question, its likely to just bring out the extremes on either side (as the above first response illustrates)

Any moderate middle won't exist (or be wasted) on topics such as that, as you're either extreme leftist woke or radical right conservative. It's people at two ends of a football field yelling at each other, while the majority of the world is busy playing in the middle.

Posts like that make me think that a future like the movie Idiocracy would actually be considered a 'good outcome' than where social media inspired rage is driving us currently :)
lostgoat on 03/06/2023 - 12:40

+54

I am disappointed in OzBargain's decision to leave this post up

Yeap come to here to find a bargain and find this annoying stuff . Scotty should just pluck it seeming the mods can't.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:48
  
  +33
  
  Censorship is so awesome. I really hate the mental strain of thinking for myself
  - freefall101 on 03/06/2023 - 13:09
    
    +41
    
    I forgot that if a documentary isn't posted about on ozbargain then it doesn't exist.
    
    Stuff gets removed from ozbargain all the time, is that all censorship?
    - tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 13:18
      
      -1
      
      If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
      
      I think you’re missing the point entirely — I refer to censorship of the discussion, and not the documentary
      - freefall101 on 03/06/2023 - 14:03
        
        +18
        
        @tharlow:
        
        If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
        
        Depends how you define sound.
        
        I think you’re missing the point entirely — I refer to censorship of the discussion, and not the documentary
        
        Conflating censorship with being unable to promote though is rubbish. Is it censorship if I walk into your dining room and start talking about trans rights and you throw me out? This is a private deals forum and every post is at the mercy of the moderators. Many posts have discussion around them and are subsequently removed.
        
        Censorship is thrown around all over the place these days. Yet on the forums we have a post of people complaining about pride month without anyone claiming it's censorship.
        
        If you want to discuss it, post it in the forums. There is no need for it to be on the front page, particularly when other items of a similar nature get taken down. Ozbargain isn't for spam and that's all the video is, spamming a culture war to bring viewers to the daily wire. If the government tried to ban anyone watching it, I'd be right on the box next you protesting about censorship but that's not happening.
        
        tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 14:05
        
        -2
        
        @freefall101: You say this like people don’t have free will? You’re passing judgement as if you are the only arbiter of truth
        
        freefall101 on 03/06/2023 - 14:42
        
        +5
        
        @tharlow: What on earth makes you say that? My internet tone?
        
        I think you're reading a lot that's not written.
  - skidexa on 03/06/2023 - 18:14
    
    +1
    
    You can still watch it you know rolls 🙄
  - letmesee on 04/06/2023 - 21:17
    
    +1
    
    By demonising someone's personal rights to be who they are not censorship. They can't express who they are or what they believe, in fear of getting beat up, but sure why not, I can see how removing a non deal item from an exclusive deal website, will lead us to tyranny.
- Ghost47 on 03/06/2023 - 13:22
  
  +5
  
  Yeap come to here to find a bargain
  
  Then go to the Deals section of the website.
  - Gervais fanboy on 05/06/2023 - 15:29
    
    Omg, God forbid you go to the deals section and find something that you so desperately disagree with
    It must be a travesty to keep scrolling and not be triggered by it.
    - Ghost47 on 05/06/2023 - 15:53
      
      +2
      
      Wtf are you on about now? You completely missed the point of my comment which was tongue-in-cheek because we’re in the FORUMS ffs.
cannedhams on 03/06/2023 - 12:41

+22

OP,

The High Court case to which you referred relates to defamation. It does not relate to discussion of a political nature. While it is an offence to use a carriage service to post material that would be ressonably regarded as being, in all the circumstances, offensive, the High Court has previously found that bar for this sort of offending behaviour ought to be set very high (Monis v R https://jade.io/article/290541). It does not serve your cause to refer to case law which is not on point.
- snoopydoop on 03/06/2023 - 12:46 Comment score below threshold.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:47
  
  +6
  
  Never let the truth get in the way of a popular hyperbolic statement
- nomekop on 03/06/2023 - 22:11
  
  +1
  
  Thanks for sharing this @cannedhams !!
  It's interesting how nowadays people try very hard to censor ideas in whatever way possible
Aureus on 03/06/2023 - 12:48

+17

Ozbargain is a business and those hateful people are customers.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:53
  
  +4
  
  A cross-section of society is a cross-section of society. Brilliant! We should probably anoint an elite group of illuminati to pass judgement upon others’ dissenting opinions
  - Aureus on 03/06/2023 - 12:54
    
    +2
    
    Sign me up for the panel.
RobVH on 03/06/2023 - 12:51

+65

People should be allowed to consume the content they want. But the motivation for this post was not because it was a great bargain.

There is a lot of paid content that is made free for a short time to lure people in. Had this been a free day subscription to a service that hosted it, along with other films that would be a bargain. This is a thinly veiled attempt to undermine pride month in America. We dont need to drive more culture wars here. Ozbargain should be about inclusivity not political leanings.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:54
  
  the motivation for this post
  
  I think you’re assuming the motivation. The true motivation identifies as indeterminate
  - GrueHunter on 03/06/2023 - 19:21
    
    +6
    
    You’ve certainly identified yourself as something.
- sakurashu on 03/06/2023 - 23:25
  
  +5
  
  How is that any different than the deal for a free .gay domain for pride month?
  
  One is an attempt to promote pride month and the other an attempt to undermine it - aren't both political leanings?
  
  Claiming it's about inclusivity and then leaning one way or the other is clear hypocrisy but as Tim Minchin says I guess we are all hypocrites
- gyrex on 04/06/2023 - 08:39
  
  +1
  
  I perceived the post as a bargain. I've been wanting to watch the documentary for a while and had no idea that one could view it for free until the post arrived in my daily email so I'm really thankful to the OP for posting it. I subsequently shared the deal with many family and friends who also benefited from the deal. This seems like a storm in a teacup to me.
WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 03/06/2023 - 12:54

+2

@snoopydoop it may be worth adding a poll.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 12:55
  
  Yes, that will be definitive
cheesyvanilla on 03/06/2023 - 13:16

+23

From the guidelines on comments…

"Hate Speech

Hate speech attacks or expresses prejudice against a person or a group on the basis of particular attributes (including, but not limited to: race, religion, ethnic origin, national origin, disability, sexual orientation or gender). Hate speech includes spreading misinformation about a person/group with the intent to harm, create prejudice or create fear. Sexist, racist, xenophobic or similar comments will be deemed as a personal attack or hate speech depending on context."

It would seem reasonable that certain guidelines on comments would also extend to the items shared by users on Ozbargain. One can argue on the merits of any particular listing, but whether on intent to harm, or the creation of prejudice/fear, the intent of the documentary is fairly clear to me.
- chepsk8 on 03/06/2023 - 15:09
  
  +34
  
  "BuT WE'rE JusT ASkINg WhAt A wOMan Is?"
  - grandpotato on 03/06/2023 - 16:04
    
    At this point those posts must be trolling
  - jackspratt on 04/06/2023 - 18:01
    
    Is this an example of illiteracy, or just a busted keyboard?
- Thorn69 on 03/06/2023 - 15:11
  
  it would if it was hateful in any way you must view it first rather than saying its hateful from the get go because someone else called it so
  - cheesyvanilla on 03/06/2023 - 15:45
    
    +3
    
    Yeah nah I've watched it - would you agree that if he used a case in the film involving a cisgender boy (as in identifies as the sex they were born) that he falsely suggests is transgender and where the school hadn't even implemented trans-inclusive policies on bathroom usage at the time of the alleged assualt, that this is spreading misinformation that would cause some harm, prejudice or fear? -https://www.washingtonblade.com/2022/01/19/mother-says-teen-boy-charged-with-assault-in-girls-bathroom-at-va-school-is-straight/
mskeggs on 03/06/2023 - 13:16

+44

I just avoided that post, was clear from the description it was going to be dehumanizing and be a forum for some users’ baser opinions.
It makes me sad to see other people being treated that way, but there is a rump of people who aren’t going to be convinced by any amount of “debate” so I just let them to it and figure they’ll end up getting past the thing that has hurt them, or one day be too old to participate any more.

Attitudes change for the better.
One of my teenage boys played Culture Club in the car today - when I was his age it wasn’t a song men listened too.

I’m pretty sure it won’t take as long to see trans people treated more respectfully.
- tharlow on 03/06/2023 - 13:23
  
  +5
  
  The unexamined life is not worth living. There is so much more to life than a label, and that’s exactly the point here — respect starts with oneself. Morphing reality into a form you find more palatable is just not compatible with the ideal of coexisting peacefully
- bobbified on 03/06/2023 - 17:03
  
  …it won’t take as long to see trans people treated more respectfully.
  
  I think it's possible to live alongside each other in harmony, as long as one doesn't try to force their ideas down the other's throat.
  - chepsk8 on 03/06/2023 - 17:20
    
    +8
    
    Somebody’s existence and identity isn’t an “idea”.
    - bobbified on 03/06/2023 - 17:23
      
      What would you call it?
      - chepsk8 on 03/06/2023 - 18:48
        
        +1
        
        @bobbified: Accepting the existence of trans people.
        
        AndyDD on 04/06/2023 - 00:22
        
        +5
        
        @chepsk8: Do you accept the existence of trans-racial people?
        
        And allow someone who - say- identifies as black, to paint their face black, when physically, they were born white?
        
        If anyone has an issue with that, are they bigots who deny of the trans-racial person's existence and humanity?
        
        Speckled Jim on 20/06/2023 - 21:31
        
        @AndyDD: I have an issue with that, and I'm not a bigot, nor am I a hypocrite, nor someone desperate enough to use false equivalencies.
        
        Black face vs the contents of someone's pants? Really?
        That all ya got?
        
        AndyDD on 21/06/2023 - 14:27
        
        @Speckled Jim: Why do you have an issue with it? It doesn't have to be black face - I've got a feeling you wouldn't have much issue with a black person painting/dyeing their skin white, and identifying as white?
        
        If someone psychologically feels like they're in the wrong skin and does something about it, that's something to take issue with, but someone who feels like they're the wrong gender, and does something about it, that's ok?
        
        Speckled Jim on 21/06/2023 - 16:44
        
        @AndyDD:
        
        a black person painting/dyeing their skin white, and identifying as white?
        
        Did Michael Jackson identify as white? If he did, what business of it is ours?
        
        I've got a feeling
        
        Enough feelings. Get a clue.
        
        you wouldn't have much issue…
        
        Well I didn't assassinate MJ, nor did I exert my considerable influence on Somers-Carroll. A Jewish entertainer from Nawleans did though.
        
        AndyDD on 21/06/2023 - 19:04
        
        -2
        
        @Speckled Jim: "Did Michael Jackson identify as white? If he did, what business of it is ours?"
        
        So what business of yours is it if another entertainer, who is white, darkens their skin, as much as MJ lightened his, and identifies as Black?
        
        Speckled Jim on 21/06/2023 - 21:22
        
        +1
        
        @AndyDD: ?? You proposed this absurdity, as a false equivalency to the gender issue. My issue was with THAT. To be clear, you proposed an ephemeral "change" of race to justify outrage to a difficult and permanent change of gender.
        
        Tattoos. Makeup. Pink wig. Fez. Dress. Would I wear any of them in public?
        No, not unless it was all the above and for a performance that benefits charity. Others can decide for themselves.
        
        There is no central standards body that can dictate limits to these things in a free, democratic society. If you crave such limits to appearance, you don't belong here.
        
        Now, do I have an issue with people undergoing hormone therapy, gender reassignment or whatever? Not at all.
        That's their Everest, and more power to them.
        
        You guys are justifiably salty; you're in a minority comprised of less than 30% of the population. So you're extra-noisy to compensate.
        
        AndyDD on 21/06/2023 - 22:17
        
        @Speckled Jim: It's not a false equivalence simply because you think/say so. Nor is the concept "absurd" - someone can very well have a phychological issue that sees them identify as a different race, or indeed part of their DNA/genetics can factually be from a different race, making it biologically true - they may simply want to identify as that other race, despite their appearance not being consisent with that. Really not that far fetched from someone born male identifying as a woman.
        
        On one hand, when I asked if anyone would have an issue with ppl darkening their skin and switching race, you said "yes, I have an issue with that", on the other hand, "what business is it of ours?". There's some inconsistency in logic there.
        
        And I don't think "minority" of the population really matters? I'm not drawing a parallel with the current discussion, but the majority of people in certain parts of history and certain parts of the world have supported attrocities - it doesn't mean the minority who disagreed were "wrong" in their outlooks.
        
        Speckled Jim on 22/06/2023 - 20:57
        
        @AndyDD:
        
        Do you accept the existence of trans-racial people?
        
        If they already exist, my acceptance is of no consequence.
        
        to paint their face black, when physically, they were born white?
        
        Sounds like a stunt, but if that makes them happy and content, then fine.
        
        someone who feels like they're the wrong gender, and does something about it, that's ok?
        
        If course it's okay. It should be encouraged before adulthood, as by that time it's much harder to transition, assuming they survived to adulthood.
        
        Self-determination for all. Too progressive for fascist fanbois? There's a few outlier countries that deny even the existence of homosexuals within their borders, or make it a crime. Fill your boots. They're sure to welcome the like-minded.
        
        You can't stop progress. Get on board or out of the way. The relentless march of progress will steamroll any and all who try to stop it.
    - CoreArchitect on 22/06/2023 - 09:16
      
      Such garbage. If gender is a social construct it's an "idea" by definition.
  - mavis30551 on 19/06/2023 - 16:41
    
    Anti trans people always use this argument as if anyone is forcing anything down their throat.
    
    Meanwhile an anti trans video deal that should be banned is allowed to flourish with 30 pages of vitriol and hate aimed at trans people.
    
    Seems pretty forceful to me.
    - bobbified on 19/06/2023 - 17:03
      
      -1
      
      Forgive me - I didn't know that 'facts' were forceful!
      - mavis30551 on 19/06/2023 - 17:09
        
        +1
        
        @bobbified: So you think hate speech in a public website against trans-men/women are "facts"?. Gotcha.
        
        bobbified on 19/06/2023 - 17:29
        
        @mavis30551: That would depend on what your definition of "hate-speech" is.
        
        It's quite concerning the way some people get accused of "hate-speech" and "violence" because they don't agree with someone else's ideas.
    - Gervais fanboy on 19/06/2023 - 17:13
      
      an anti trans video
      
      Critiquing and asking questions is being anti?
      
      Gender dysphoria is a genuine condition that 99% of the population can sympathise with. Making it the norm and encouraging it on a whole generation of kids as if it were some fad is cruel and should be a concern to you and me both.
      
      30 pages of vitriol and hate aimed at trans people.
      
      You libs and your endless lies.
      F the 30 pages, only just quote me 30 genuine trans ‘hate’ comments, I’d pay you $100 and more importantly your BS would finally get some credibility here.
      Or otherwise you lot just keep making up these imaginary enemies so you can play the victim. Have some effin integrity.

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