Termination of Oral Work Contract

frugalftw on 20/03/2024 - 23:06

Hi ozb,

Someone I know has been terminated from his job, and I’ve been trying to figure out the legality of it all:

  • he was informed on the day he would not be paid and needed to leave the premises
  • he needed to vacant the storage space immediately or his equipment would be sold off

Background info:

  • the work was based on an oral contract of 20 hours/week
  • he has been doing it a few hours/week for a few months then offered 20 hours/week last October
  • there has been an administrative change and people apparently have been unsatisfied with his performance but no one has said anything to him
  • the only communication he has received was when he had been sacked; there was nothing on his performance
  • it happened on the same day he quit his day job to commit to this job, he then had to go back to his boss
  • it’s manual labour

Anyone’s got 2¢? There was zero paper trail, only phone calls. The person isn’t really into wanting any legal actions; I’m nosey and curious.

Education & Work

Comments

  • SBOB on 20/03/2024 - 23:17
    +5

    No employment contract, I assume therefore no paper trail and no payslips and no PAYG tax withholding?

    If so, sounds like the termination notice was in line with the expectations of any legal requirements for the employee/employer relationship.

    • frugalftw on 20/03/2024 - 23:21

      There was talks about paying for gst so yes to pay slips or some sort of invoices. It’s not a cash in hand kind of deal and plenty of people know the person worked at the place (hence the complaints).

      • SBOB on 20/03/2024 - 23:31
        +8

        There was talks about paying for gst so yes to pay slips or some sort of invoices

        Sounds more like a contractor working under an ABN than an employee if you're talking GST and invoices.

        So a contractor working for a company with no documented defined terms, agreements or notice periods

        If so, sounds like the termination notice was in line with the expectations of any legal requirements for the contractor/business relationship.

        • jv on 20/03/2024 - 23:48
          +2

          Sounds more like a contractor working under an ABN

          20 hours/week

          ATO might disagree though…

          • Love a bargain on 21/03/2024 - 12:58

            @jv: How ATO views the income from one contract is irrelevant to the legal status of that contract.
            e.g. ATO considers whether the taxpayer has only one or multiple of "clients" as a factor but the law doesn't.

  • jv on 20/03/2024 - 23:18
    +9

    Termination of Oral Work

    😲

    • Muzeeb on 20/03/2024 - 23:27
      +2

      Sounds like Mrs Muzeeb after a few minutes seconds.

      • jv on 20/03/2024 - 23:29
        +2

        😲

        • Muzeeb on 20/03/2024 - 23:30
          +3

          Yep. That's the look she gives also. Lock jaw runs in her family apparently.

          • elgrande on 21/03/2024 - 09:29

            @Muzeeb: Speaking from experience I presume..

            • Muzeeb on 21/03/2024 - 12:40

              @elgrande: Definitely an area I would like to gain more experience.

      • Gunnar on 20/03/2024 - 23:32
        +2

        Mrs Gunnar calls me Usain Gunnar. Dunno why becaus I really don’t like sport

    • Iwantthebestprice on 21/03/2024 - 00:24

      🫢

  • El cheepo on 21/03/2024 - 02:17

    What kind of work was it?

    Without any paper trail or records of anything theres not a lot anyone can reasonably do.

    Plus it would only be classed at casual work even if you could pin it with a paper trail.
    Casual workers can be easily fired for no reason. If pressed by any complaints from fair work etc, they can easily make up a reason. (Assuming there was no termination letter)

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 05:00

      Maintenance work, cheap labour I’d say, doesn’t require much experience. I’ve never heard of this zero notice period practice, so it’s kind of a shock. Then again it’s not any less shocking that there’s no paperwork at all. The man has no idea about exit clauses etc., he’s never done contract work for a company before.

      • DealHunted on 21/03/2024 - 06:56

        Some casual work contracts have a notice period of 1 hour, not even a day! I once worked for American Express via a third party on a casual contract that had an hour's notice.

        • El cheepo on 21/03/2024 - 10:41
          +1

          Yep, i switched back to casual at my company and my new contract says 1 hours notice.
          Then it also requests 7 days notice if i plan to leave. (Cant be enforced though, i too can give 1 hours notice)

          Fortunately i have a great relationship with my company so its unlikely to ever go that way.

          And being casual, A company can literally just say: we don’t need you anymore (because of x).

          • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:11

            @El cheepo: Thanks for sharing, that’s quite eye-opening. It makes me wonder how much of the employment rate needs to be discounted.

        • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:09

          Wow an hour? What’s the point of even having that?

  • 2jzzzz on 21/03/2024 - 06:19
    +1

    Might give your jaw a break

  • joka on 21/03/2024 - 06:35

    Could this person still have been on their probation period? Sounds like notice was given within six months.

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:13

      There is no probation period. I’m sure he would be aware if there is one, also considering his initial job was only a few hours a week that has grown into 20 hours, it’s almost a type of promotion.

  • Hardlyworkin on 21/03/2024 - 07:04
    +1

    Without all the details, we are all guessing. If a casual employee, just paid for time worked. If a contractor then whatever was agreed upon between the parties. Many other scenarios where notice is required though we don't have all their info to be sure.

  • hasher22 on 21/03/2024 - 08:57

    It's been 6 months already from October to now. Hopefully exactly 6 months or a bit more.

    Your friend possibly can lodge a unfair dismissal case cause they had regular hours and minimum 6 months employment.

    It shouldn't matter if there's a contract or not or if they been hired as a contractor under their own ABN, the payslips should be proof enough.

    On the other hand, cause they are a contractor with no written agreement, I'm 99% certain they can dismiss anyone at will under 6 months and maybe that's what they did to avoid an unfair dismissal case.

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:19

      I thought even oral contracts are binding therefore enforceable. Many people are aware of him working for the company, so there are at least a dozen witnesses if it needs to be proven. Plus I’m sure he’s got banking records of regular deposits from the company.

      So the six months timeframe is where the line is, that’s interesting.

      • freefall101 on 21/03/2024 - 13:01
        +1

        What was in the oral contract though? We want you to do this work, bring your stuff and we'll pay you? He was contracted to do a job then let go. He might only be able to go for breach of contract, and what the terms of the contract he agreed to will matter.

        Employees of small businesses need to be there 12 months to file an unfair dismissal case, but it's not even clear how he was unfairly dismissed when he's not even an employee.

        • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 13:15

          My understanding is he applied for the job posting initially, to a few hours of routine work to compliment the then contractor. As it went on, he had been invited to take over the other contractor. He was doing it as a side gig and didn’t want to overwork so he declined. Some time later, after looking at property prices, he decided it was something he can take on, so he had an agreement with the then administrator for 20 hours of work per week. Regular and routine work might make him an de facto employee from an accounting point of view, even if they are paying him as a contractor. Contractors are paid by the outcome, employees are by the hour.

  • CrowReally on 21/03/2024 - 09:49

    Sadly these days an oral contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:27

      Is it really gone, the old fashioned ways of doing business? Has there been a moral decline?

      • CrowReally on 21/03/2024 - 14:25

        Its an old joke contrasting the concepts of "oral contract/written down" but to answer your questions in order: yes and no

  • Ocker on 21/03/2024 - 10:22

    Amazing how OP knows all of the fine details about "someone I know" !!

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 12:22

      It’s called listening. Look it up, I’m sure you can find a way to decipher it. One day it might even help you land a job somewhere.

      • Ocker on 21/03/2024 - 13:44

        Yep, as you rightly say - you are obviously "nosey"

  • AustriaBargain on 21/03/2024 - 12:50
    +1

    Oral contracts are binding, but unless anyone can prove what was said then if he denies it then I may as well have never been said. People in Australia lie readily, there is no honour, which is why we use paper contracts. Maybe in Japan or something some employers would be too ashamed to lie about something like this?

    • frugalftw on 21/03/2024 - 13:28

      It’s funny how you mention that — he lived abroad Asia teaching English until Covid sent him back. I’ve not worked in Asia so I’m not sure how things operate there.

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