Charged for Feeding in Solar Power

Euphemistic on 16/05/2024 - 16:49
Last edited 16/05/2024 - 16:55

Solar panel owners slugged by Ausgrid for generating too much power https://www.smh.com.au/environment/sustainability/solar-pane…

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/two-way-pricing-electric…

Ausgrid is going to implement charging residential owners for exporting solar power between 10am and 3pm, then give you 2c/kwh after 4. Meanwhile they'll charge anyone using power 30-50c/kwh for using power.

While you shouldn't install solar to get feed in tariffs, getting charged becasue ausgrid can't work out the grid and users to use solar power seems a bit rich. I understand the wholesale prices can go negative during sunny days, it this is ridiculous in times of "cost of living crisis"

Looks like they are pushing owners to get batteries.

I was planning on upping my solar system with more panels, but might delay that now and go for battery instead.

What will you do?

Home & Garden Solar Energy System

Comments

  • BOGOF on 16/05/2024 - 16:57
    +19

    The spokesperson said the new two-way tariff would encourage households to use energy in the middle of the day and export it to the grid at night, and help Ausgrid avoid costly network upgrades.

    How do you generate electricity at night to export?

    • Euphemistic on 16/05/2024 - 17:02
      +2

      After 4pm theres light in summer. They only will pay between 4 and 9pm.

      • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2024 - 17:16
        +2

        Read the detail. The 4pm is at some times during the year, other times it will be different. Summer could well see its not until 7pm.

        • smalltime0 on 17/05/2024 - 23:23

          That'd be hard to justify, since people from 4pm are getting home and turning on air conditioners at that time.

          • Euphemistic on 18/05/2024 - 10:14
            +2

            @smalltime0: If they turned on their AC before 4pm it would help. Decrease the load after 4 and increase usage when there is more sunshine.

            • smalltime0 on 18/05/2024 - 16:36

              @Euphemistic: Comment I replied to was basically saying that Ausgrid would still do the charge for feed in after 4 during summer. Which is nothing short of lunacy

    • HeWhoKnows on 17/05/2024 - 08:13
      +16

      They want you to install a battery!!!!

      Charge it during the day and then draw power from it at night.

      DING DING DING

      • Kangal on 17/05/2024 - 16:16
        +5

        Nope.
        They want to control your solar and battery system remotely. If you front all the risks and costs, and they get all the control and benefits. Step three is ??? but Step 4 is $$$.

      • iDroid on 17/05/2024 - 22:30
        +1

        I have 13 kwh batteries and they're fully charged by 11am most days (from empty). So there's still a lot of power to be used locally before 4pm…

        • HeWhoKnows on 18/05/2024 - 13:16

          I assume this occurs during the long days of sunshine during Summer.
          Plenty of power stored in your batteries for after 4pm and at night when they want to charge you for drawing power from the grid.
          But seems you will be charged for feeding back power into the grid once your batteries are charged…not good

        • serpserpserp on 19/05/2024 - 08:02
          +1

          Not in Melbourne recently. Two days ago I only generated 6.7 Kwh for the day on my 6kwh system. Lowest amount generated this year I believe and we haven't even hit winter!

      • supersabroso on 21/05/2024 - 12:25

        Yep, I wouldn't feel too sorry for the rich Ausgrid people in Sydney. They've been having it so good compared to the rest of us poor Endeavour Energy people. Introducing a tariff will just even it out as we've been capped at 5kW of export and we had to pay $500 to enforce it with a limiter.

        Having said that, they are doing it wrong, they should just reduce the tariffs accordingly, not introduce a fee to distribute clean energy instead of burning coal.

    • tessel on 17/05/2024 - 09:56
      +21

      Help them avoid costly network upgrades. Just like they helped consumers with lower power prices all these years, right :) Oh my.

      • Butterfly Gocha on 17/05/2024 - 18:17
        +7

        Just think of the shareholders /s

      • sane on 18/05/2024 - 20:08
        +1

        Forget $300 in election bribes.

        Give me standard default rates of 25c kWh input, 12c kWh for feedin, and progressive cuts in the amount of carbon the generators are allowed to pollute - hitting 0 in 2030.

        Time for the stick.

        • serpserpserp on 19/05/2024 - 08:07

          My rate is flat rate under 20c Kwh for the first 30kwh per day and then goes to 23c for anything above that. My lowest feed in is 4c though.

          I run three split systems pretty much 24/7 and haven't beached 30kwh a day usage yet. And that would be before I've discounted any solar I've generated for the day

    • Tleyx on 17/05/2024 - 14:06

      They invented panels that work at night

      • susmind on 18/05/2024 - 15:55

        How many solars panel households moon their solar panels at night ?

      • McFly on 19/05/2024 - 01:38
        +1

        Lunar panels.

        • Tleyx on 19/05/2024 - 18:39

          No they work when the moon isnt out

    • hudrob on 17/05/2024 - 19:59

      You could also potentially store generation from the day in a battery, and export it from the battery later.

    • Daabido on 19/05/2024 - 12:28
      +1

      Duh, just turn your outside lights on.

  • w0mbat on 16/05/2024 - 16:58
    +15

    Time to get a battery
    or a heat pump water heater
    We're all going to get screwed over for having solar.
    energy independence is the only way!

    • HeWhoKnows on 17/05/2024 - 08:15
      +25

      Typical SCAM

      Get as many on board as possible with an unsustainable offer then…

      PULL THE RUG OUT AND CHANGE THE RULES!

      • afah0447 on 17/05/2024 - 14:15
        +5

        To be fair, the drive for uptake of solar was driven by governments not distribution companies like Ausgrid. They are now forced to deal with consequences of government policies on their networks. People don't realise this.

        • HeWhoKnows on 18/05/2024 - 13:19

          Yes, Ausgrid was complaining some time ago that this strategy was costing them money.

          But it doesnt change the unfair situation now

      • mitt on 18/05/2024 - 14:11

        PV solar feed in was always an uncontrolled externality. There is only so much daytime demand & electricity is not a commodity you can stockpile at a low enough cost to be viable.

        The only people mad about this are those who choose to remain wilfully ignorant regarding how the grid works & just wanted to continue to sponge off this special brand of middle class welfare.

    • Excelsior on 17/05/2024 - 13:13

      Is it worth getting a battery now? My (limited) understanding is that it wasn't because the time it takes to breakeven is longer than the warranty of the battery itself.

      • Kangal on 17/05/2024 - 16:18

        It is, but due to low supply, there isn't a mass produced option. So the costs don't make sense.

        All in all, it's just corruption.

      • SteveM on 18/05/2024 - 10:30
        +1

        Sure, it's longer than the warranty, but so is the life of the battery. My washing machine had a 2 year warranty, but is 15 years old.

      • serpserpserp on 19/05/2024 - 08:12
        -2

        I find it funny that people focus on breaking even as the only factor of getting a battery/solar.

        • Randolph Duke on 19/05/2024 - 08:30
          +4

          Unless you live in an area with poor electricity supply it’s basically the only one I can see.

  • AustriaBargain on 16/05/2024 - 17:03

    Too much power in the grid. If it starts leaking out it could be hazardous. Get some batteries and crank your AC at night.

  • Drakesy on 16/05/2024 - 17:04
    +28

    Power companies having their cake and eating it too.

    But agreed, charging someone to provide power then selling it back to them a few hours later… Sounds like they haven't improved their grid to cope and are charging you for the privilege.

    Sure enough if i plug my car in between 10am and 4pm i'll be paying to use the electricity.

    • netjock on 17/05/2024 - 10:04
      +1

      Think in SA the new standard for inverters is the grid can turn off your inverter from exporting remotely.

      • moar bargains on 17/05/2024 - 12:58

        That's been the case in WA for a few years now, and recently became mandatory for new installs in Victoria. Not exactly sure of the state of the rest of the NEM, but it's been discussed and worked towards for a while: https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/solar-inverter-control/

        • Drakesy on 17/05/2024 - 15:43
          +1

          I think i was one of the last installs back in 2021 which didn't have the remote shut down.

          Would be frustrating af to have a car that you want to charge only for the regulator to shut down your system.

          • Euphemistic on 17/05/2024 - 16:57
            +1

            @Drakesy: It doscomnects the export. Wont disconnect if you dont have any excess.

      • nickraphael on 19/05/2024 - 09:59

        Does that require a special type of inverter? I’m about to get solar installed so want to make sure my inverter is future proof. Cheers.

        Also, isn’t it trivial to install a device between the inverter and export line that shuts it off during certain defined windows?

    • md333 on 17/05/2024 - 15:36

      I think there are some providers that let you plug in for free at those hours. Possibly even pay you. Some people with batteries are signing up to these.
      In WA I get charged only 8c in solar hours.

    • mitt on 18/05/2024 - 14:12

      "Storing electricity is free, just fill up the wires lol" - Ozbargain electrical engineer

      I really hope the people in the replies here are just playing dumb for jokes.

  • Cluster on 16/05/2024 - 17:06
    +15

    Sounds like an incentive to needlessly waste power between 10am and 3pm. Calling all bitcoin miners!

    • jv on 16/05/2024 - 17:27
      -5

      needlessly waste power between 10am and 3pm.

      It's not wasted.

      The energy has been produced by the Sun regardless of whether you use it or not.

      • Cluster on 16/05/2024 - 17:31
        +18

        Wasting power saves you money in this regard. Get charged 2c/kW, or use it for anything at all and lose 0c.

        I don't know if inverters can be set to limit export. Mine can't. So fire up that 2kw heater, boil water until it evaporates, vacuum the cat, run crypto mining, do anything to consume the power on sunny days than export it.

          • Cluster on 16/05/2024 - 18:01
            +16

            @jv: People are incentivized to use power by any means possible to avoid getting charged for exporting it. That can easily result in usage just for the sake of using it up with nothing productive to show for it. In other words, wasting the power.

            • SirCH on 17/05/2024 - 10:30

              @Cluster: Yes but power usage is "live". Any electricity that is produced and put into the grid that is not used is 'wasted'..
              So yes, it's better for you to "waste" power in your home by using it for something…anything…rather than put it into the grid and it just needs to be burned off.

        • jjjaar on 16/05/2024 - 18:20
          +10

          vacuum the cat

          😂

        • Sye on 16/05/2024 - 18:21
          +3

          boil water

          That's the OzBargain way to Protect Your Property

        • Succulent on 17/05/2024 - 08:32

          But if you over use them, you end up getting charged premium on peak hour, which was previously $0 if you own the panels.

        • R-Man on 18/05/2024 - 20:08
          +3

          Instructions unclear, have accidentally evaporated my cat

        • McFly on 19/05/2024 - 01:51

          Instructions unclear. I boiled the cat, fired up some water, vacuumed the crypto mining rig (it needed a good clean anyway), and ran the heater till it evaporated.
          Would have been easier to just route the power to the flux capacitor…

      • bio on 17/05/2024 - 10:54

        If you had a device that converted sunlight into gold, and if you dumped that gold into the rubbish bin every day, would you call it a waste or not?

        • jv on 17/05/2024 - 11:05
          +1

          would you call it a waste or not?

          Not

      • Chandler on 20/05/2024 - 10:43
        -1

        11AM AEST and the NEM Dashboard disagrees with you…

        • 72% coal
        • 25% solar
        • 2% wind
        • 1% other

        Seems like they need to burn less coal, rather than charge customers for exporting…

        Edit to add: yes, it is more complex than that, yadda yadda…

        • beach bum on 20/05/2024 - 16:10
          +1

          Pumped hydro , commercial sized batteries , charging electric car batteries, running daytime trains , industry , commercial ,
          Basically everything that goes on in the daytime besides home use , are they forgetting all that so they can just say that home use at dusk is the peak time , or just peak profit time .

    • bamzero on 16/05/2024 - 20:01

      Or you could just export limit…
      (Just saw further down that yours can't :) )
      Last resort, the off switch…

    • brandt on 17/05/2024 - 09:23
      +3

      Pump it up in to a tall tower tank during the day, then let it flow down at night to generate hydro electricity.

      • McFly on 19/05/2024 - 01:52

        Malcolm Turnbull has entered the chat

      • joelmuzz on 19/05/2024 - 22:22

        There is very little energy in lifted weight. Only viable at massive dam scale.

    • NMC on 17/05/2024 - 20:22

      I'll be opening all the windows and cranking the air con in summer. My system generates 100kw per day over summer months

      • bonezAU on 19/05/2024 - 00:18
        +3

        You can cool down the whole suburb

  • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2024 - 17:11
    +22

    Solar is the cheapest form of energy. So says Chris and Now Ausgrid.

    Cheapest if you are an energy provider. They will charge you to give them energy. Then at night they will give you 2c a kw for what you give them.

    Meanwhile they charge 36c a kw if you buy from them.

    Welcome to the greatest con. Put solar on and pay for the privilege. Or pay another $10K and put a battery on. (and that gives you 10kw of power at best - that wont last the whole night for most families - and then there are days when your solar wont even recharge a battery as well as power the house.

    If you have a battery why would you export power to them for 2c when later at night you would pay them to buy it back to run your heater etc.

    Some fool who has no idea thought this up.

    So Chris Bowen is right , Solar is the cheapest - but just forgot the detail. Its not the cheapest for the consumer only the energy companies.

    And who owns Ausgrid.

    The peoples friend

    Ausgrid are currently 49.6% owned by the NSW Government, 8.4% owned by AustralianSuper, 25.2% owned by IFM Investors and 16.8% owned by APG Asset Management Group. Ausgrid's strong shareholder base is unique – majority owned by the NSW Government.

    • jv on 16/05/2024 - 17:53
      -2

      Solar is the cheapest form of energy.

      Not for consumers…

      • Guybrush57 on 18/05/2024 - 12:17
        +3

        Yes. He did write that in his post.

    • LFO on 17/05/2024 - 09:39
      +3

      Put solar on and pay for the privilege.

      Funny thing is that multiple forums and posts refer to solar as free … conveniently forgetting how much it costs to get it!

    • hudrob on 17/05/2024 - 20:07

      "Welcome to the greatest con. Put solar on and pay for the privilege. Or pay another $10K and put a battery on. (and that gives you 10kw of power at best - that wont last the whole night for most families - and then there are days when your solar wont even recharge a battery as well as power the house."

      This is the biggest issue for me. A battery can't come close to storing all the excess energy my solar panels produce in summer, and in winter I don't produce enough excess power to charge a battery, let alone export.

      The biggest issue at present is the ROI on batteries at the current $ per kW levels is longer than the warranty on the units - you're talking about 7-10 years to pay one off assuming you fully charge and discharge it every single day.

      • RockyRaccoon on 18/05/2024 - 07:15
        +2

        You say

        This is the biggest issue for me….

        I agree , however to be accurate there is a slight extra benefit with a battery - as I have one. And it does save more by covering spikes in power use and when there is intermitent power generation.

        In those times you take from the battery, even though half an hour later you are putting back energy to the grid.

        And no battery system will efficiently cover the summer when you overproduce. If you use say 15kw a day inc night use, while you have produced 25, you can theoretically store the 10. But then the next day you do the same, and the then you will have the battery already full, so you would need more batteries.

        Likewise in winter. You get 2-3 days of rain/cloud and underproduce - your excess needs to come from somewhere.

        This highlights the issue we will have that many dont address with full renewable energy. Our weather isnt consistent. Snowy Hydro etc will help with daily intermitent power consumption/generation but having days of excess generation or days of limited generation is eventually going to impact. Unless so much capacity is built into the system. That cost is horrendous.

        And to believe any energy provision is going to be net zero, defies simple logic. Copper wires, towers building/structures to hold /generate the energy (Dams Batteries, Panels windmills etc) take effort and resources. Net Zero is BS - its simple to say almost impossible to achieve.

        That said getting to a very low carbon footprint is still something to strive for.

        • Euphemistic on 18/05/2024 - 10:27

          This highlights the issue we will have that many dont address with full renewable energy. Our weather isnt consistent.

          While its true that weather is variable, having a network of many sites for supply mitigates weather variances. They put windmills were the wind is fairly consistent. Its rare to have the entire country under cloud etc.

          Looking back at my solar generation its rare that theres more than 2 days with very low generation, mostly its a single day with under half while the rest of the days are over 80% (seasonally adjusted).

          Im optimistic that were moving toward a very low carbon energy network. storage is not the only solution, more important will be adapting our usage to renewable variance. Moving away from 'base load' power plants and into smart usage of what is avaiable.

          • RockyRaccoon on 18/05/2024 - 11:46

            @Euphemistic: I understand that it will be offset by other areas that can be generating while others arent. But there will be times that is not the case. And lets say outback Oz has plenty of sunshine. We can have the same a sunshine throughout the country. Now we have wasted energy going no where.

            Once you build in a backup up plan using anything not renewable, then guess what its NOT net Zero.

            We as individuals can tap into the grid etc, but the grid doesnt have that backup for extended, albeit occasional under supply, that requires a lot more redundancy at a cost to the economy AND the environment.

            Its just not that simple. Scaled up creates issues that we individuals cant comprehend. Ausgrid is forshadowing that with the concept, we should utilise the excess energy ourselves rather than sell it to the grid. But that isnt going to be that easy on a constant basis.

            And large users like industrial enterprises, ramping up/ramping down arent like doing your washing today instead of tomorrow or vice versa. As you know in your home town, shutting down the steel furnaces and restarting would take days not minutes. They had to be carefully managed.

            As I said before. Its not to say dont go renewables for a large part of the supply, its just not feasable to say its going to be the complete solution.

        • serpserpserp on 19/05/2024 - 09:08
          +1

          Go read up on where California is and other European countries. They have very large battery arrays or wind power now to supplement. Close to net zero is possible if you invest in it.

          Also batteries are becoming bigger capacity for same weight, with longer periods of discharge before death. I think it'll be a few decades, but we are rapidly moving towards a renewables energy future. This country might even get 90% there before Melbourne's suburban rail loop is finished! If only we'd invest that kind of money in renewables we'd solve this problem quicker

      • serpserpserp on 19/05/2024 - 08:21
        +1

        10kw of power at best - that wont last the whole night for most familie

        Really? I have a family of 4 and run the split systems 24/7 and I've exceed 30kwh use for one day this calendar year. That day I did exceed (31kwh usage in 24 hours) probably 9kwh was used outside of solar production time. It was a heatwave day so the aircons were on at night too.

        So using 10kwh plus a night is an extreme use case. Unless you have a massive house that is very inefficient with insulation/heating/cooling

    • TEER3X on 18/05/2024 - 16:39

      Who's using 10kw/h at night?

      • surg3on on 20/05/2024 - 17:44

        I do. Electric cooking chews a lot.

        • serpserpserp on 21/05/2024 - 11:43

          I cook electric too. Still don't use that. Used the oven for over an hour last night not a massive drain

          Maybe if you are using multiple electric frypans for hours you'd use alot

          • surg3on on 22/05/2024 - 09:22

            @serpserpserp: 10kw/h for an entire night? TV, dishwasher, cooking, all teh other stuff. I easily eat through that before the sun comes up the next morning. Guess I use a lot of juice

            • Euphemistic on 22/05/2024 - 16:39
              +2

              @surg3on: Im gonna guess you mean 10kwh.

              10kw/h for the entire night is like 80kwh. 8hr x 10kw.

              Kw per h is kw/h. Kwh is kw x hours.

              10kw/h for 5 hours is 50kwh.

  • Ocker on 16/05/2024 - 17:13
    +24

    So I am charged 2c kWh to feed excess into the grid, the power company sends it 50mt to my neighbour (on poles and wires that I am charged for separately) and charge him 35c kWh for the stuff.
    What a racket.

    • freefall101 on 16/05/2024 - 18:18
      +4

      There's a difference between the grid and your power provider. Ausgrid have to deal with all the excess energy being pumped into the grid and don't earn anything from it being sold on to your neighbour. During the middle of the day solar can power almost the entire grid all by itself and they have to deal with power companies still selling wholesale power at a loss because they can't spin down their coal power plants.

      Your power company will have the choice of how they oncharge this fee. Likely, they'll wear it. They make a mint in the middle of the day, power is basically free for them. They might pass on the bonus Ausgrid is giving during peak hours to encourage the same behaviour but more likely they'll just recapture that as well, to make billing simpler.

      • aboogee on 17/05/2024 - 13:15
        +1

        They should install batteries instead of incentivising the consumers to do so.
        I am so out of touch with electrical engineering these days but i assume larger batteries = better economy of scale
        If the problem is not sorted then obviously failure on someones part for incentivising so many solar panels before the grid can take that sort of fluctuations.

        • Euphemistic on 17/05/2024 - 14:14

          Even more efficient than installing batteries is to move demand to when thw sun shines.

          • JakeyJooJoo on 20/05/2024 - 07:56
            +1

            @Euphemistic: As a solar panel owner, this is already being done as much as possible. The comment you're replying to is right, need large batteries provided by ausgrid to address the time of day issue, not punishment for solar panel owners. Talk about disincentive for future solar panel uptake…

      • Chandler on 20/05/2024 - 11:38

        During the middle of the day solar can power almost the entire grid all by itself

        As shown in my comment above, this is not correct. As at 11:37 AM AEST, it's 29% solar, noting that NSW is importing a net of 287 MW (importing 860 MW from QLD; exporting 97 MW to QLD and 476 MW to VIC)

        • freefall101 on 20/05/2024 - 11:44

          The key word there is "can". It can do it, it doesn't always.

          • Chandler on 21/05/2024 - 08:14

            @freefall101: The data still disagrees with you: 72% coal, 11% solar, … over the last 12 months (yes these will be aggregated values, so not looking at particular times of day), but it looks at best ~30-40% in the middle of the day for yesterday+today; unless your stating that if they built out more solar (or other renewable) supplies, that it could power almost the entire grid by itself?

    • jjjaar on 16/05/2024 - 18:23

      Sell it to your neighbour directly. Set up a reallllyyy long extension cord with power monitoring, turn it on when you have excess and bill them at the end of the month. Just make sure they know when it’s on so they can plug their devices into it.

      • CheapandUsed on 16/05/2024 - 18:30
        +1

        Houses next to apartment blocks suddenly in even more in demand!

        • Nugs on 17/05/2024 - 06:19
          +5

          Only on the northern side….

    • JIMB0 on 16/05/2024 - 20:01

      Bypass the power companies and run a lead over the fence.

  • jv on 16/05/2024 - 17:26
    +3

    What will you do?

    Use gas.

  • CheapandUsed on 16/05/2024 - 18:28
    +8

    That's it, we're putting in a swimming pool!

    32 degrees celsius year round, just to avoid paying Ausgrid to take our solar.

    • knasty on 17/05/2024 - 09:09
      +1

      That's exactly what I did (already had the pool). Installed a heat pump that soaks up all the excess solar during the day summer and winter (generally until 3pm). It turns off when we start using power more intensively. Everyone is happy…

    • RockyRaccoon on 17/05/2024 - 12:16

      Have you priced a pool lately?

      Cheaper per kw to install batteries. Just like other "pumped" storage, Snowy Hydro, its going to be a millstone around your hip pocket…. 😀

    • diceman99 on 18/05/2024 - 00:08
      +1

      You will be paying more for the chlorine to kill off the algae in your warm pool

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