Can We Consider Australia a Developed Country with a Lot of Future Potential - Are We Tech Savvy and Business Oriented?

"Of course, we are!" - say Liberals and Labor.

"Nah, not really" - says Statista.
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Link:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9aYSlXsAAD4LT?format=png&name=...

In terms of allowing conditions to create solid unicorn companies we are on par with Mexico, Chile, Argentina and some African countries.
China, India and even Brazil are doing much much better than we do.
The US are doing 50 (fifty!) times better. China is doing 10 times better. China (!) that our big-mouth politician would call "an oppressing, unfair police state" is doing something right, something that our strong democratic and fair dinkum society CANNOT deliver.

Who cares, bid up that house matey!

What do you think?
Is this the government or the people being the reason?

Door 1: Blame the Government

Easy way out. Of course that is their fault!
Surprisingly, they have not done much differently to other developed governments - i.e. created extra easy monetary conditions to flood people and businesses with money to allow investment, development and prosperity. Not much different except for ONE thing.

Whether this was due to English descent (UK also love their housing bubble and have similar laws / stimulus) or simply political greed, every Australian government (until recent Labor feeble attempts) have heavily subsidized property investment and incentivized poperty-related tax concessions.

It is not uncommon in the corridors of power to stimulate a particular sector of economy, BUT two absolute rivals (and our winner/runner-up in a Unicorn competition) have bubble-pressure release valves in their system. The US does this through cruel capitalism structure and creative destruction while China has a knack for "moving the asset bubbles around" through thoughtful inflation and bubble bursts via CCP means (not joking, they have had good luck with a set of wise men steering the wheel).
Both countries and governments have easily allowed a serious destruction of wealth through property bubble bursts (when it was required). That, however, cannot happen in Australia.

Door 3: Let's keep the ball rolling

Good choice, a safe one (until it's not). Shoveling money into commodities and property sector is a losers game as there is limited growth in those sectors by default. And after some time you need to start inflating the asset bubble to allow the same old economy keep "bearing gifts". The US and China are proving us that only EXPONENTIAL growth in tech and smart ways of doing business can deliver the desired levels of growth.

So what's wrong with the old school of "dirt and houses" trading?

As a country, we will need keep importing and warehousing bodies (immigration) in a hope that commodities boom will last forever (sadly it won't) and keep inflating that bubble until… well just keep inflating it. The cities will become more and more crowded (otherwise how you will keep the bubble inflating?), the jobs will be paying less and less in REAL terms, inflation will be high and higher (have you seen those RE prices, I will need to charge more for milk and eggs).
This option also has a VERY BAD social outcome as we will pay MORE for capital and LESS for labor which means that ALL younger people who don't have a lot to offer apart from their time and skills will earn less and will be taxed more. Pretty much a recipe for a civil war (or a nice old-school violent revolution) in 10-20 years time.

Door 2: Looking into the mirror

Who will you vote for in the coming election?

Poll Options

  • 238
    Let's blame the government
  • 33
    Let's blame the people
  • 19
    Let's bid up houses and trade dirt with China

Comments

      • Tomhaigh1 Spot on! 20 years back most countries would have been quite different in good or bad terms. Talking of India, it is VERY different from what it was 20 years ago in a good way. Sure, like any other country, one can count (complain of) a few things which have remained unchanged (BBC would be among the first ones to do so) but you can also count many more things which have changed drastically, including income levels, education, technology adoption, infrastructure, job markets, etc and standard of living in general. There are heaps of things which India has started doing better than the rest of the world in the last 20 years. In fact, last 20 years is the most ripe time Indian economy has seen (so far and still kicking) from the IT revolution perspective so you can imagine its impact on the overall economy and society as a whole.

      • This is hilarious, you migrated 20 yrs back and comparing with current India.
        Mate, now a days Indians are earning more than Aussies.

        lol, mate… you actually been to India?

    • +1

      That's because India's development started later than Australia's due to the colonial history. Australia, as the lucky country, has been too complacent despite having had a head start.

      • That's because India embraced tech and have some-what proper incentives structure in place.
        We will be trading dirt and selling overvalued houses in decades to come (with luck on the side of commodities prices boom and non-stop immigration).

      • Its called lucky country for a reason I guess.

    • +3

      Tbh if you're rich in any of those countries you have a very good lifestyle

      • Agree, but the point to make is that the number of rich in many of these countries are rising very fast, hence your chance of becoming one of them is improving significantly. This wasn't a case say 30 years back.

      • If we left our poor to live in the slums we could be rich too!

    • You have no idea how it is living in India, Pakistan, Srilanka.

      kanad Mate, the moment you put today's India, Pakistan and Srilanka in the same category, one can guess how disconnected you are with India. These countries are far more different from one another today than how different they were 20 years back. Totally agree with your comments about Australia though.

    • Oh, I have a little bit of an understanding about how folks in India live.

      You, on the other hand, seem to know exactly how every person of the vast population in those mentioned countries live. Not to mention the supernatural understanding of the exact level of knowledge and education of every person on this forum (after looking at your comment).

      And India will get there don't you worry. Just compare it with the progress they have made in the last 10-20 years and extrapolate into the future (and same in Australia).
      Natural resources are a good tail-wind but you need to use that advantage to the benefit of all population and future generations and not just your political sponsors.

  • +2

    Think of a Pyramid of Development.
    Bottom of Pyramid - Mining, Agriculture, (Raw Materials), Tourism
    Middle of Pyramid - Fabrication of Materials, Refinement (Refined Materials) Service Sector jobs, Research
    Top of Pyramid - High Value Manufacturing (Refined final goods) High end Service Sector jobs, R&D and commercialisation of products.

    Where does the majority of Australia's GDP come from - the bottom of the pyramid.

    Why is the pyramid important? if you want the country to truly develop you must have a good spread of activities in the pyramid. The most successful countries have more activity towards the top of the pyramid. Any country at an early stage of development can be in the bottom of the pyramid as it has the lowest barriers to entry of activities (agriculture and digging rocks up etc) so Australia has to compete with anywhere else in the world that could have the lowest paid workforce in commodities that have minimal barriers to gathering. Hence the reason that mining and agriculture in Australia is on such a large automated scale (economies of scale and reduced labour costs). So we are competing on an international stage and we need to get far more high end (top Pyramid) jobs and careers in Australia to build up the strength of our country.

    • If your pyramid is in any way reflective of developed societies - why is most manufacturing (mid-tier of pyramid) nowadays done in the crappiest, dirt-poor countries?

      • Developed economies, not necessarily societies. And… Who owns those manufacturing centres in the dirt poor countries?

        • Manufacturing centres aren't in dirt poor countries. They're often in mid-tier countries like China, Vietnam, Indonesia, Sri Lanka etc. These countries often have decent infrastructure (roads, airports, ports) and a relatively well-educated population (finished primary school at least, and are literate; with managers being of high school or university graduated).

          Dirt poor countries are mostly in Africa such as Sudan, Somalia etc. These places often suffer from political conflicts, debt insolvency, drought, etc. And without proper infrastructure or an educated population, they have to rely on agriculture which is their competitive advantage. Unfortunately for them, their competitive advantage have further been trampled by developed countries such as the US subsidising their own agricultural products, making it hard for Sudan/Somalia etc. to compete in the agricultural market in the US. This essentially prevents them from moving out of the 'poverty trap'.

      • I dont think Germany is a crappy dirt-poor country (include Japan, France, UK, Italy….)
        I think vipers pyramid is spot on.

    • Kind of right but this is not the Maslow thing.
      Looking simplistically - yes, you can look at UAE who started with a hole in a ground and now are the financial and business hub of the Middle East. But it did not appear ONLY from building the system bottom-up, you cannot command a free capital where to go, you need to create a system of incentives.

      The national economy is a complex organism and need to be stimulated and triggered properly and thoughtfully.
      What I am saying is that our fearless leaders so far have stimulated only the highly-cyclical low-growth low-tech industries and created very bad incentives to keep the bubble growing. this will not end well.

  • +1

    The government has ruined lives, families losing their jobs, homes, business and values.
    Excuse after excuse after excuse.
    Sold out to China, borrowed God knows how many billions in debt. And still going.
    There's literally no coming back from this cleanly.
    There are thousands of examples of the Chinese coming to Australia, buying out properties, kicking locals out of their homes that they have lived in for years, and saying:
    Well sorry nothing we can do, they own it now.
    It's disgusting and immoral, yet the government says that love the people? Lies!!! I've seen it with my own eyes.
    Hopefully the next set of lying politicians do a better job.

    • +6

      Chinese coming to Australia, buying out properties

      Who sold them though? The locals

      • Local LNP too. Ports leased out cheap for 100 years. They can send their military fleet to our doorstep, ala Russian style.

      • -1

        The local government you mean?

        One great example in my area was the Wantirna caravan Park.
        I knew some locals there that had been living in there for years. All of a sudden it gets bought up by an Asian business, everyone got evicted, and there's nothing they could do.
        One person hung himself from a tree. My mate had to cut him down. And that's just the beginning.
        Now? In 2022. What's being done with the property? Absolutely nothing! It's just sitting there.
        So no, not the locals and you say, it's the corrupt money greedy government.

        • +1

          Who were the original owners of the park?

          Does/did the local gov own every property, including regular houses? Pretty sure the house my Chinese friend has was sold to him by a local Aussie.

    • Sad reality but look how the "wealth effect" improved lives around Australia…. that is what Josh might have replied with

      Eh, I don't see that either and we are due for a bubble-pop due to overleveraged landlords and recent FHBs with 5% deposits. Hope those foreign buyers will pull their profits out in time (at the end of the day, we all trying to make a buck)

  • +4

    We are a smart country but are falling behind with our education techniques. Especially in our primary schools this is where good foundations are built.

  • What happened to the bumper stickers that say: “Australia, love it or leave it”

    • +1

      Australian borders are closed for non-compliant travellers.

    • Suddenly, there were people who want to decide how Australia will be shaped?
      You did not see that coming, did you?

  • With "Biden MkII" istalled by this BBS good night!

  • Climate Change looms larger than any trivia bandied about here …

  • +3

    Thank God the definition of a developed country doesn't only rely on the numbers of technology companies, otherwise a naive person like you would think India is the paradise on earth.

    • Well, you are in the right place mate then.
      Coal mines and armies of RE agents certainly spell "developed country" better than technological advance.

      Good luck with growing GDP in the next 20 years relying purely on commodities and real-state.

      • You can immigrate to India.

  • Govt needs to invest more in research. It's been gutted, see recent SMH article from PhD student who, after govt effectively spent $ sponsoring their study, will go overseas to work.

    CSIRO made WiFi, what if we could invest more in home grown innovation? I don't believe private sector can do it alone.

  • +7

    Going to go out on a limb and say. Why the f*** is our internet speed so poor for a first world country?

    Oh wait politics

  • +2

    Until the circular economy of government —> mining magnates —> Murdoch media is ended, it's not going to happen. Why do you think the Howard government wanted to remove media ownership rules all those years ago? Now we're a one horse town. All around you hear the same phrases about opposition parties parrotted for well over a decade now, and no one questions it. Labor bad with money, greens dangerous hippies who will ruin the country and everyone just eats it up and spews it out over, and over, and has done, on every single online forum and on TV, for years now. They'll throw out a few coins to the peasants who lap it up, then they get on with the business of funnelling tax revenue through that circular economy and when they leave government, walk onto the lucrative boards of banks and mining companies. Any other political player will end that status quo and none of those players want that.

  • +1

    We are a small country.

  • +7

    The government is the issue in all aspects, though the people of Australia are at "fault".

    It should be our responsibility to call out the corruption and wrong doings of the government. But alas, our minds are focused on the Australian dream, i.e, paying off a home loan and the rest of it, car, bills, etc. When the mind is occupied on such things, there is no room to question the government.

    Well played government, well played 👏

    On a side note. As usual, screw you Liberals for butchering the nbn!! 🤪🤪

    • +4

      I think our media plays a huge role in people not being aware of the important issues. Perfect example would be the huge focus on LNP candidate Deves and this whole trans debate. Is this really a major issue for most Australians, or at least, is it one of the most important issues? I would think not. And realistically it is unlikely she will even be elected.

      MSM seem to largely ignore all the glaring issues, such as no national ICAC, corruption within our Federal government, record level of government debt…

    • screw you Liberals for butchering the nbn!!

      Pretty sure the dreamcast only needs a 56k modem

      • +2

        A broadband adapter was available for it. So 🤪

  • +19

    OPs post is more a rant than some kind of structured debate….what is the main question we're addressing?

    All Australia cares about is digging up dirt and selling it to China.

    We treat our intellectuals, STEMs like absolute dogshit and so they go overseas and then we cry foul about it.

    These unicorn companies don't just grow off trees, the require talent and the lifelong nurturing of such talent.

    We only reward sports and tradies in this country, it seems.

    My dad did cardiovascular research to reduce the MI death rate, government pulled the funding and he ended up running a take away joint to keep his family fed.

    This is pretty anecdotal, but I hear this story a lot….

    • +1

      This is spot on.

  • +9

    CSIRO invents things like wifi and the coalition is like - let's cut funding to CSIRO and dig out more coal. 'Don't be fraid!' 🥱

  • +8

    With the amount of wealth in the ground we should be living like Emiratis - free education, free healthcare, no income tax, subsidised energy, fuel and public transport, free houses…

    Instead we pay massive amounts of tax while big corporates like Uber, Amazon, move in and pay next to zero tax, and get to work undercutting workers rights, mining companies take our minerals out of the ground and pay next to no taxes, and our politicians tell us young people are too lazy to afford a $1 million dollar house, and the millions of older people trapped in the casual workforce with no job security and no future start to vote for far right parties who promise them lies while selling out more of our country.

    I commented on here the other day that amazon should pay more than $30 and hour (not including cost of your own fuel) to their delivery drivers and got downvotes.

    The problem is noone gives a s**t about this country, we have no national culture or national pride except for being proud to be stupid bogans, and the media tells us wanting to prioritise our citizens is racist, diversity is a strength, and a hodgepodge people who all act in their self interest is a functional society.

    As the Chinese put it, the anglo west is a nation of divided tribes.

    Our country is headed to neo-feudalism. You will own nothing and you will like it.

    The solution is not less government, as the corporate media would want you to believe.

    Happy ANZAC day, let us all pretend we still have the same unity the citizens of 100 years ago did.

    • +1

      Our country is headed to neo-feudalism. You will own nothing and you will like it.

      My response to this is buy hard assets.

  • Australia is a sheep of a country and we have our government to blame
    Australia will put foreign aid before it's own citizens
    Our country took multiculturalism too far to the point it doesn't put its own people first
    And that's why the anger in this country is growing

    • +2

      Our country took multiculturalism too far to the point it doesn't put its own people first

      Do you mean indigenous Australians or something else?

      • -3

        I'm talking about Australians in general that includes aboriginals
        But in saying that it's 2022 and I think it's ridiculous that indigenous Australians get a Leg up

        • +2

          Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People still have a life expectancy of 10 ten years less than non-indigenous Australians - I'm not sure that counts as a leg up.

          • +3

            @p3nf0ld: Why do they? Is it because they disproportionately live in remote areas with poor access to education and healthcare?

            Maybe we should give extra support to people who live in remote regions, rather than based on the colour of their skin, or the colour of one of their grandparents skin.

            That way you support disadvantaged indigenous populations without being overtly racist.

            The oppression olympics is really getting old, 2/3rds of this country's population are either immigrants or the first generation children of immigrants. They aren't responsible for the crimes of the British empire and don't feel the need to pay 'reparations', especially when we can't even ensure they are helping people who actually need help. Take that BS to the USA

            • @Shacktool: "@p3nf0ld: Why do they? Is it because they disproportionately live in remote areas with poor access to education and healthcare?"

              No, you are incorrect. The reduced life expectancy and other metrics are independent of living remotely. The majority of Indigenous Australians live in capital cities.

              Though support for anyone living in a rural location is important (those living in rural Australia have a life expectancy 3 years less than their city bretheren) it is in no way addressing the issue.

              "That way you support disadvantaged indigenous populations without being overtly racist."
              No you were incorrect in your assumptions, the way you address the deficiencies is by targeting the systemic barriers faced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.

              "The oppression olympics is really getting old, 2/3rds of this country's population are either immigrants or the first generation children of immigrants. They aren't responsible for the crimes of the British empire and don't feel the need to pay 'reparations'"

              Once again you are incorrect. Any part of our society which faces such significant discrepancies requires that we as a people make a significant effort to adjust the shortcomings - its that simple (nothing to do with reparations).

              "especially when we can't even ensure they are helping people who actually need help."
              The way to achieve this is by incorporating the contributions of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people rather than making incorrect assumptions and adopting a paternalistic stance.

              • +1

                @p3nf0ld:

                The reduced life expectancy and other metrics are independent of living remotely. The majority of Indigenous Australians live in capital cities.

                That doesn't intuitively make sense.

                I would have to accept that there are systemic barriers faced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, that are somewhat much more severe that those experienced by other typically disadvantaged groups (i.e. all the immigrants I mentioned before).
                Based on their culture? Their DNA? They face much more discrimination than othee groups?

                I'm willing to change my mind, do you have a souce for this?

                  • +2

                    @p3nf0ld: Thanks, I agree they are a sick population, and it isn't all to do with living in remote regions.

                    Apparent school retention rates for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander full-time students from Year 7/8 to Year 12 increased from 36% in 2001 to 49% in 2011.
                    Nationally, the proportion of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged 15 years and over completing Year 12 increased from 18% in 2002 to 22% in 2008. The rate of Year 12 completion has also improved in all states and territories.

                    https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/lookup/AC0C73523447...

                    Looking past the positive tone, these are shockingly bad statistics.

                    People aren't opposed to policy to address poor health, or poor education. They need help and they should get more help. So should anyone else who is unemployed, or has diabetes, or needs assistance getting a qualification.

                    People are opposed to a race based "leg up" - for example additional grants and payments purely based on 'identifying' as indigenous, job openings that will look past a more qualified candidate simply based on race, lower entry score (or no minimum score at all) for a competitive university place - simply so an organisation can pat themselves on the back. Race shouldn't be used as a proxy for disadvantage, but it is.

  • +5

    Australia is a lazy country

    Full of dependent people wanting the govt and others to work for them.

    Our handout system is broken but has been used very effectively to

    Buy votes
    Trickle wealth up to the extremely wealthy
    Enslave the peasants

    And most of you have fallen for it.

  • +2

    Blame the people who elected the government

    • Why not blame the opposition for losing over and over again?

  • Get rid of politicians who are wedded to coal. (The independents will start this on 21.5.22)

    With some good policy, we could, almost overnight, lead the renewable revolution that is happening. This will look like:

    Radical changes to transport (autonomous, micro-rail, drones, fast trains)
    Desalination of seawater and transport of fresh output to arid farmland (make sure it's sustainable)
    Step change in use of greenhouses for food production, on the spot processing from seed to packaged product
    Environmental repair and rehabilitation using hightech
    Movement towards boutique manufacturing in rural regions
    Production and export of green hydrogen

    Look to Mike Cannon-Brookes and others with sustainable visions. Get rid of politicians who are wedded to coal. The jobs will come, thousands of them.

    • +1

      This plan will cost $1 Quintillion.

      • +1

        So cheaper than subsidising coal and gas? Nice!

      • Possibly not, it will pay for itself with food security, employment, a cleaner environment. It will happen, whether you want it or not. Quickly. Ideally though we'd be taking action rather than waiting for foreign powers with vision to come here and do it.

        • +1

          Australia is still paying for nuclear subs and the NBN.

          Australians unlikely to know cost of scrapped submarines until after election, Peter Dutton says
          Defence minister says negotiations with France over abandoned naval agreement will ‘take some time’

          Daniel Hurst Foreign affairs and defence correspondent @danielhurstbne Mon 18 Apr 2022 11.04 BST
          https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/apr/18/austr...

          Secret figures reveal Coalition’s cut-down NBN tech three times more expensive than forecast

          Exclusive: National broadband network ended up costing almost as much as estimated cost of full-fibre plan

          Josh Taylor @joshgnosis Tue 9 Nov 2021 16.30 GMT
          https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/nov/10/secret-fi...

          Your plan could end up costing closer to $2 Quintillion with these fine project managers.

          • @rektrading: Ohh, there's been a misunderstanding! "These fine project managers" either won't be around to execute it, OR if they are, will still be mining coal and shouting about how the sun doesn't shine at night, and the wind doesn't blow when it's uh, erm, not windy.

  • I left india which now has 60 unicorns for Australia which has has only 10!!!
    Wondering is this is a bargain??

    • +1

      If you want something done, should have stayed in India.

      Only thing the government does here is give hand outs during election time.

      • +1

        I have no regrets, please believe me.

        It’s a country where politicians have the greatest powers of all and even act above the law.

        Dealing with a govt department is so painful and slow that you just have to pay a facilitation fees to get the jod done..
        So things don’t happen their quickly…

  • +2

    First world problems.

    You should reflect and realise how lucky we are to be live/be born in this country, especially compared to some countries who almost have no food for the general population to eat.

  • +5

    China is doing 10 times better

    And the guy above saying India has 60 unicorns vs Aus 10

    Lean to compare apples with apples because it could change your conclusion 180 degrees. China and India have over 50x our population, so a ratio of 6x or 10x without taking population differences into account, is significantly underperforming.

    Option 4: We don't have a problem compared to China or India.

    • +1

      Our GDP is $55k, India is $8k per person.

      This may be a fairer comparison just fyi.

      Keep in mind, Australia really isn't a traditional country, we're like a modern mish mash of cultures all smashed up together in the last 200 years.

      I believe the point OP is trying to make, which honestly is the overall feeling in industry and business, is that the government does little in australia to promote such levels of entrepeunirism

      • You could argue that countries with better social security (e.g. Aus vs US) have less incentive to start businesses, a very few of which become unicorns. Not sure what social security is like in India, but it's unlikely to be as attractive as Australia's.

  • +2
  • Yes, I'll blame the government, but not because of their policies, but rather because of our political and social culture. To fix issues like this, you'd have to enact some very brave policies which I have good feeling that most people would have a meltdown over.

    Deregulation is the most powerful stimulant for small businesses yet Australians are absolutely petrified by the thought of businesses not being told what to do. No more forcing them to follow your religion of Green, minimum wage, diversity quotas, COVID restrictions, shutting them down so only the major corporations can get a head start, massive taxes…the list goes on.

    Culling these measures encourages entrepreneurs and gives them a platform to succeed, yet any party that tries to do so would be committing political suicide because Australians are the most pathetically cowardice people who can't stand the thought of freedom and personal responsibility. The government has to do everything for us short of wiping our bums when we get too tired. We give them this power to rule over us which means they need to be involved in every part of how businesses operate.

    This isn't going away by voting Labor. It's going away when people grow up and realise that the government isn't the answer to their problems - it's the cause.

    • Spot on

    • +2

      No more forcing them to follow your religion of Green, minimum wage, diversity quotas, COVID restrictions, shutting them down so only the major corporations can get a head start, massive taxes…the list goes on.

      So you wouldn't mind getting a wage cut to $5an hour? No WHS laws too, would help small buisness save money if they don't have to buy you hard hats, only install 1 toilet cubical amongst 50 workers, no breaks for you.

      Giving business' More freedom goes both ways. They can have restrictions against right wingers or people who refuse to make social media accounts.

      • -2

        The great thing about the free market is that a business with no toilets or unsafe operations paying $5/hour would quickly go under. They would only attract employees stupid enough to bite their fingers while eating a sandwich. And (because of minimal government), the owners wouldn't get bail outs.

        But of course you equate bureaucracy and red tape with common sense. This is like me saying anyone who's pro-legislation wants us to become a fascist dictatorship ruled by excessive laws.

        More legislative power means the government could just as easily ban businesses owned by women or gays. Didn't they teach you that in Unit 30018: Fundamentals of Bootlicking?

        • +2

          The great thing about the free market is that a business with no toilets or unsafe operations paying $5/hour would quickly go under

          I didn't say for every employee. Your work could offer everyone a good wage, but you $5phr and a toilet in a bush.

          Your work would probably agree with your idea, that way you can't sue them for making you open social media accounts.

          Didn't they teach you that in Unit 30018: Fundamentals of Bootlicking?

          No, I wouldn't be interested in lectures held by you.

          • @Ughhh: Then I'll just go to the business next door and apply for a job there. They'd probably pay me a fair wage since I've got confidential information about my last employer - and since there are no laws, I can use this information how I wish.

            One way or another, the douchebag business making me piss in the bushes is going to get hurt. That's the beauty of the free market. Your choices have consequences.

            • @SlavOz: Don't you think this view misses the historical instances of worker exploitation which could give us a view of what would happen?

              • +2

                @01001101 01000010: I don't know about you, but from what I've seen recently, government policy has only facilitated or outright forced worker exploration.

                Go ahead and fire your employees for not being double triple quadriple vaccinated. In fact, you MUST fire them because we said so. Don't worry about unfair dismissal or rationalising your decision against scientific evidence.

                The government literally forced employers to exploit their workers or put them in a position where they could no longer afford to hire them. These are the people you trust with protecting worker's rights?

                I'm not swallowing that.

                • @SlavOz: You seem so obsessed about what the gov can do to employers and workers, you've completly ignored what business' can do to workers. Gov regulation and laws could be the only thing standing in the way of an employer firing a 60yo or a disabled person etc. Not everyone has the privilege to choose their job or be able to just leave. Show some empathy and stop just thinking about yourself.

            • @SlavOz:

              since I've got confidential information about my last employer - and since there are no laws

              Except you've given freedom to business' on how to run their business, which includes drafting a contract that prevents you disclosing confidential info or any unfair terms. You see how flawed your arguments are, and how it can be used against you?

              making me piss in the bushes is going to get hurt.

              Not really, if they wanted you gone anyway. Just a way to force you to resign. Unfair dismissal wouldn't help you either since you've given business the freedom.

              • @Ughhh: They can put whatever they want in a contract. Who says I have to sign it? If they don't have legal responsibilities, then neither do I.

                • @SlavOz:

                  If they don't have legal responsibilities, then neither do I.

                  You've given business' the extra freedom, not yourself.

                  • +1

                    @Ughhh: The idea behind deregulation is that it works both ways. The government stays out of everyone's life and only intervenes when absolutely necessary.

                    Red tape is just a tool to keep small businesses out of the game and help corporations get ahead.

                    • @SlavOz: Just to be clear, you are against Fairwork and Safework/WHS laws? Both of which are Gov regulators.

                      How would deregulation favour you as a worker? You can quit work anytime you want for any reason (with notice according to your contract), but your employer can't fire you without a good reason.

                      I would imagine Gerry Harvey and all the billionaires taking advantage of workers would love your idea, I would too if I was them.

                      • +1

                        @Ughhh:

                        Just to be clear, you are against Fairwork and Safework/WHS laws? Both of which are Gov regulators.

                        I am against excessive red tape, for which Australia is notorious. In terms of specific policies, I would have to look at them closely and conduct a thorough cost-benefit analysis before advising whether I agree or not.

                        How would deregulation favour you as a worker?

                        Many potential ways.

                        • Less licensing/qualification requirements. This means I can shift my career path if the market changes.

                        • More jobs to choose from as more businesses will be enticed to operate here

                        • Will not get fired for my personal health choices

                        • More flexibility in how we all work as businesses will be able to issue short-term contracts or casual roles as needed. So a freelancer could be working for 4-5 different companies at the same time.

                        • Lower taxes as money won't need to be spent enforcing all this red tape, so more money in my pocket instead of to greedy politicians.

                        • @SlavOz:

                          Many potential ways.

                          Less licensing/qualification requirements. This means I can shift my career path if the market changes.

                          So that you can be a brain surgeon and operate on a patient next month? So that you can build (dodgy) houses for others without any credited training? So you can give financial advice to people without doing an accredited degree? Do you even understand the purpose of licensing and qualifications????

                          More jobs to choose from as more businesses will be enticed to operate here

                          Just like how many billionaires like to open factories in third world countries where there's child labour and zero protection for workers?

                          Will not get fired for my personal health choices

                          Yes you can. You've given the business the freedom to operate as they wish, that includes firing you for being right wing, anti vax etc. Just because it's not the Gov telling them to 'fire you', doesn't mean they can't fire you themselves under your idea.

                          More flexibility in how we all work as businesses will be able to issue short-term contracts or casual roles as needed. So a freelancer could be working for 4-5 different companies at the same time.

                          If you're a freelancer currently, you can't be working for different clients/projects?

                          Lower taxes as money won't need to be spent enforcing all this red tape, so more money in my pocket instead of to greedy politicians.

                          You're making the assumption that that money would go back to you, instead of just increasing their own pockets.

                          • +1

                            @Ughhh: Unfortunately, I don't think you know enough about deregulation to have a discussion about it. You should do some further reading first as comparing it to brain surgeons is just beyond silly.

                            If there were unqualified brain surgeons out there, the only people dumb enough to see them would be those without a brain to begin with. They're not going to last long.

                            But either way, this is a far stretch to a young entrepreneur who wants to sell lemonade to willing customers but needs to apply for dozens of permits and tax records just to operate. Most of these are nothing more a cash grab with a signature. He's not going to bother, which means people don't get lemonade and jobs don't get created.

                            • @SlavOz:

                              just beyond silly.

                              I'm just following your style. You often make funny comparisons, I thought I'd give it a go! I can see why you do it so often.

                              Have you tried selling lemonade? I would like to be able to make money selling whatever food/drinks I like where ever I want from my slightly dirty kitchen.

                            • +1

                              @SlavOz: Sounds like everyone replying to this comment is dependent on govt and mummy and daddy and are scared to go out at night.

  • +3

    The government right now

    Thankyou China for continuing to buy our coal and ore and ensuring our economy chugs along nicely without you we'd be nothing through covid and the gfc

    Also the government
    China is our greatest threat and enemy of australia

    If our current government thinks that China hasn't already implemented plans to get away from Australian resources they're kidding themselves

    • The government does what the people demand. This isn't some intuitive policy they came up with. It's what people asked for.

      Cutting ties with China (or holding them accountable for their global genocide called coronavirus) would cost us a lot of jobs, raise the price of many goods, and just come off as racist. Though this would be better for Australia long-term, it would require a lot of groundwork and sacrifice from both the people and the government. Nobody wants that. In fact they'd have an absolute meltdown if the government tried it.

      The thought of Labor standing up to China is like a bad joke delivered by a female comedian.

      • +2

        For once I can agree with you on some of your comment in that cutting ties would be economic suicide. But let's be honest by not bringing manufacturing and refining onshore we've severely hamstrung ourselves in any ability to cut them off. Everything scomo said about bringing manufacturing onshore has been nothing but hot air.

        However the fact that you think the liberal's response will be better than labor's hints that you've drunk the sky news/murdoch media propaganda machine coolade/character assasination campaign.

        • +1

          Where did I say Liberal's response was better or in any way redeemable? I'm just saying that Labor would do the exact same thing. They haven't even got the balls to decriminalise cannabis. Its too risky for their image. You really think they're going to risk decimating the economy? Yeah right. They know it would rock the boat and put them in the spotlight.

          In Australia, you get elected by doing as little as possible. That means when things go wrong, you don't get the blame. Both parties are smart enough to know this. Neither of them are going to enact any significant changes.

          If you want change, vote for the minor parties who having nothing to lose and are desperate to make a name for themselves.

          • @SlavOz: UAP and Pauline Hanson are just another bunch of closet loonies
            Uap is there for the coal industry and Hanson for the closet racists

            • +1

              @Drakesy: Both Liberals and Labor are in bed with big corporations and have their share of association with fringe radicals - Liberals with the religious folk and Labor with the Greenie socialists. You're not taking a moral high road with either of them.

              If you're willing to forego change just to protect your ideological party, then you have no right to complain. Reap what you sow.

              • +1

                @SlavOz: But do you think UAP and One Nation are different on those categories?

                • @01001101 01000010: Every political party is influenced by big money. All of them.

                  The difference is to what extent. LNP and Labor are just total corporate shills at this point. Smaller parties are still under their own control and can make independent decisions.

                  If UAP or One Nation gained enough power, you would see a lot of significant changes happening. They know this would be the only chance they ever get to make a good impression so they can't afford to rest
                  on their laurels and maintain the status quo.

                  Like I said, if you want change, the option is there. If you want the same Australia of the last 20 years, especially the one that has reared its head during the pandemic, then vote for your corporate shills and stop complaining.

                  • +2

                    @SlavOz: Whoah, I was just asking a question. I wasn't complaining, nor was I advocating for any party.

  • +2

    Nah Australia is a pretty dumb country to be honest….

  • +1

    It's cultural.
    Start ups are inherently risky. Australian mentality is risk-averse.
    Start ups need to move quickly and focus on delivering value. People in Australia like to talk about every possibility and achieve consensus.
    Start ups need to be agile. Try things, fail fast and improve - rinse and repeat. Australia likes to 'do the right thing from the beginning' aka waterfall approach.

    So nah, not a great place for ingenuity and entrepreneurship. Thank God for immigration.

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