Property Market Fear-Mongering in the Wake of the Budget

I have two hot takes and one speculative thought in response to a lot of fear mongering in the wake of the budget. If you disagree with them, please tell me where I have gone wrong in my logic.

  1. Increased investor costs cannot raise rents. If the rental property market is a true market, then the costs to the investor cannot raise rents as only supply and demand can determine the price. Raising the costs on the supply side should mean that we lose some investors whose properties are no longer financially viable. If landlords are able to pass on costs, then that means the market is not fair and is more like a monopoly than a market and should be heavily regulated.
  2. Investors selling doesn't increase rents. If the first point is correct and we see an investor sell off then I dont think there wil be a big impact. The total pool of housing and people looking for housing doesnt change if an investor sells. That house doesn't magically disappear, it gets bought, potentially by someone currently renting. Rental sock loses a property but the pool of renters also lose a family. Victoria seems to have confirmed this.
  3. An unintended consequence of the budget might be the creation of "renter suburbs" With negative gearing being restricted to new builds, property investors will be attracted to areas with a lot of new builds and away from established suburbs, potentially creating concentrated pockets of renters. We dont want the only place you can find a rental in Sydney to be The Ponds. This would be an overall bad thing for our cities and I hope this is a focus for state/local governments. NSW's transport orientated development program should help with this so I hope we see more zoning changes like that.

Comments

Search through all the comments in this post.
    1. Increased investor costs can impact supply by fewer new investors choosing to list properties as rentals. But I think a lot of the hysteria on either side of the arguement isn't warrented yet. If housing prices dip somewhat, more renters may become owners and therefore reduce rental demand. Realistically this won't happen uniform across all housing markets and geographic areas. I suspect that metropolitan cities like Sydney and Melbourne attract both young people looking for work/study, and internationals on short term visas. These people are unlikely to be buyers regardless of housing prices, so the demand for rentals may remain high in such areas.

    2. Again, I think this depends on the profile of renters in an area and the sorts of houses being sold / desired to be purchased. If investors start selling off apartments, but growing renter families want to move up into larger townhomes or houses, the impact on unit pricing may not be uniform increases or decreases across the market. If all of this is happening alongside an aggressive commitment to increase the number of housing units in cities, I'd reckon we'll see a disproportionate number of apartment units being introduced to the market, with a scarcity of larger lots. If that were to happen, apartments purchased now might face negative equity in the short term, whereas the larger lots could have the opposite trend.

    3. Maybe, but this assumes infinite longevity to the tax changes. Taxation rules are meant to be blunt tools used to help shape the economy/infrastructure/opportunity in Australia. We need new housing units, so incentivising investment through tax benefits can help generate investor interest to fund this development. At the moment, tax benefits reward housing investment indiscriminately, and it puts growing families in direct competition with investors when looking to purchase an established home, sometimes trapping FHB in a rental cycle. This doesn't really benefit anyone but investors, so begs the question why the government should be encouraging it.
      All that said, if the tax laws for new builds no longer become sensible (e.g. we no longer need to keep building new units), the tax laws can be updated.

    • ^ this guy gets it +1

    • Maybe, but this assumes infinite longevity to the tax changes. Taxation rules are meant to be blunt tools used to help shape the economy/infrastructure/opportunity in Australia. We need new housing units, so incentivising investment through tax benefits can help generate investor interest to fund this development…

      …Which, in the absence of spare construction capacity, will simply drive up prices for new builds.

      I am really happy for all those unemployed tradies who have been twiddling their thumbs for years though. Hopefully they all get employed! /s

      • I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue, that the government shouldn't push for more housing supply? There are both State and Federal programs in place to subsidized qualification training for new tradies, so there is a reciprical investment to meet the demand for skilled labourers.

        • that the government shouldn't push for more housing supply

          No. They should push for more housing supply. But they haven't. They've just pushed for higher new build prices.

          They should also address the demand side, at least until the housing supply catches up to our population.

          • @tenpercent: Your arguement is that they've 'pushed for higher new build prices' because there aren't enough tradies to build units. How do you propose the government should increases the number of tradies and also decrease housing demand?

            • @shiver:

              How do you propose the government should increases the number of tradies and also decrease housing demand?

              I bet we could get by for a couple of years with fewer uber eats drivers students and instead bring in tradies with qualifications equivalent to and up to par with Australian standards.

              • @tenpercent: The problem is that tradies are in demand everywhere. Most generations following boomers were encouraged to go to uni and get a degree in order to find a well paying, secure job. As a result there is a trades deficit in all of the countries that have similar building standards to Aus.

                By the by, education injects around $55 Billion dollars annually into the Australian economy. In 2025 the government already introduced a student visa cap and increased visa hopping restrictions

                • @shiver:

                  By the by, education injects around $55 Billion dollars annually into the Australian economy.

                  Yes, yes I'm well aware of that. But how much does it cost our economy in homelessness, in overcrowding, in all the associated negative health impacts of that, and in all the extra money people waste on exorbitant rents and sky high mortgages that could be better spent on more productive things? We can't just keep operating by building fewer houses than new households arriving forever.

                  • @tenpercent: Plus they've destroyed our education system. We're not producing Australian graduates with the skilsl the country needs, we're producing immigrants with a piece of paper and a way into the country.

                    But given that that is the business model of our universities, they are very good at it.

                    • @SlickMick: And how exactly do you suggest we get more howngrown tradies than the current incentives are incentivising?

                      • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Firstly, you want me to tell you exactly how to fix the mess that we've been building your years? Seems above my pay grade tbh.

                        Secondly, welcome to the conversation, but do you know what we're discussing? You're a bit off-topic I think. The topic is, should we continue to have our universities rake in obscene amounts of money from international students, and obviously tailor thier business model accordingly, or should the focus be on providing Australia with the skills we need moving forward.

                        so, is your question related to that? If so, I believe TAFE should go back to doing vocational training, so we can have kids still finishing school whilst learning how to build etc.
                        But I don't know what incentives you're talking about. I have a feeling we're in different worlds.

                        • @SlickMick:

                          but do you know what we're discussing? You're a bit off-topic I think

                          Literally your post above is about how destroyed our education system is.

                          But I don't know what incentives you're talking about. I have a feeling we're in different worlds.

                          Yeah, probably because you're whinging about something you have no clue about.

                          Fee free TAFE
                          KAP
                          AASL
                          Tool allowance
                          LAFHA
                          Rego discount

                          if so, I believe TAFE should go back to doing vocational training, so we can have kids still finishing school whilst learning how to build etc.

                          Literally available right now.

                          Keep whinging.

                          • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes, we were talking about the education system.

                            And how exactly do you suggest we get more howngrown tradies than the current incentives are incentivising?

                            I wasn't sure you were particularly.

                            Fee free TAFE
                            KAP
                            AASL
                            Tool allowance
                            LAFHA
                            Rego discount

                            Some of that has nothing to do with our education system, some of it I have no idea what it is, but certainly none of it is contributing to a better education system…

                            I do like fee-free TAFE, but have you done a course? They aren't up to scratch.

                            Literally available right now.

                            You clearly haven't done a TAFE course recently. In my experience, the quality is terrible. Which is the whole point we were discussing, if you'd like to start over.

              • @tenpercent: There would be a pretty big ramp up to ensure the people we bring in are suitably qualified to do the trade work. It is sort of how we end up with medical people driving taxis. We have enough trouble with people who either don’t understand or follow the proper rules around installations already here, let alone bringing in people who haven’t trained to our standards. It isn’t that simple.

  • There is no way you believe this bullshit

    At very best the consequences on renters is small but at worst it is extremely negative - there is no scenario where renters are not worse off even by the govts own modelling which assumes they build A LOT of houses in which they have not met a single housing target they set themselves

    If we look at what happened to NZ when they did something similar things went to shit for renters

    Wholst Canada reduced migration and have seen 20 striaght months of rent and price declines

    • I dont understand the downvotes.

      None of the scenarios accounted for:

      • Big Australia policy and so increased immigration drives demand regardless
      • Australia's consistent housing supply rate. It hasn’t changed in 40 years. It has nothing to do with labour.
      • the introduction of pro foreign investment tax breaks which will change investor make ups. Examples such at BTR destroyed the UK.

      But sure, let's keep on praying that ignoring the flaming obvious will generate a miracle of $500k median house prices and $350pw rents 🤦‍♀️

      • Honestly doesnt phase me

        Im used to dumb people prefering comforting lies over hard truths i used to work in the public sector and it was full of the politically stupid. - the truth is to make a positive change you need to challenge popular opinion with facts and not be afraid to be unpopular. Our PM has lied too the masses failed in everything he had tried to achieved and the brainless still back him….it shows how dumb some ppl are…

        This budget is a dumpster fire

        This government is taking Australia backwards and is shit house

        The more time goes on the more and more i realise why ON is growing in support

        People ran to socialism ALP/Greens after a decade of LNP due to a clamity of failures during COVID now after half a decade their lives are worse so they've realise socialism doesnt work so they are turning to nationalism

        This government just general far left politics in general is a cancer to nations worlds realising that pretty quickly.

        Sooner or later enough peoples lives will get so shit they lose faith in this government and demand a change

        • This idea that "establishment has failed us, we have no choice but to turn to nationalism" has worked out pretty well in the US. Oh wait, it did not.

          • @verio: Hmmm probably a lot easier for first home buyers in the US than here though? Just my observation looking at relative prices.

          • @verio:

            nationalism" has worked out pretty well in the US. Oh wait, it did not.

            This might be unpopular but factually speaking but the U.S flying economically the nation is probably in the best shape its been since pre GFC

            Also how did socialism worked out great for the USSR, North Korea, and 1940s Italy …..oh wait

            • @Checkmate3023: Look at cuba right now. I love socialism and communism, but only in my family and close circle, outside of that it's a disaster or at least a rort!

          • @Gamer Dad Reviews:

            . Unfortunately the only option we've got at this point is One Nation.

            you might be right

            worse than both Jim Cairns AND Wayne Swan

            no one is worse then Wayne Swan and Jim hasnt finished yet so he might end up being worse then them all

            Hockey was also a shocking treasurer

            Albo might go down as the worst PM which had tied with Turnbull and Rudd

    • We dont need any (bullshit) modelling to know what will happen.(its always wrong anyway)
      You only need revisit what happened in 1985 when the Labor Treasurer, Paul Keating did away with negative gearing and also introduced capital gains tax.
      The ramifications where so bad that Keating killed the property market and sent rents skyrocketing.
      Keating had to bring back negative gearing 2 years later.
      And several years later, John Howard was forced do to away with Labor's indexation of property values because it was becoming far too complicated. This is when the simple 50% discount on capital gains was introduced to replace the awkward and expensive indexation method.

      So history tells us this is incredibly bad tax policy that will do exactly the opposite of what this lying Labor Government is chanting.
      This budget is just a massive TAX GRAB and nothing more.

      Lies, lies and more lies. And much higher taxes for all as well, There are no winners with this budget. Its all smoke and mirrors.
      The post budget polls are showing that most people can see this budget for what it is.

      Even the so-called income tax changes will be quickly eaten by inflation and bracket creep which this government chose to keep instead of allowing the Liberals true tax reform built into their planned and legislated Stage 3 tax cuts.

      Everything this Albanese Labor Government does is all about increasing taxes on EVERYONE!
      But how good is thier hype.
      Albanese thinks we are all so stupid. But plenty of less educated people are being fooled

      • I overall agree with this, however, there is a clear winner in relation to the CGT and NG tax changes.

        The winner is the superannuation industry. Because super is now the only place that has tax advantages for storing wealth.

        And where do labour misters go to get cushy board positions when they get voted out?

      • Rents did not go up in Sydney because of the removal of negative gearing. They went up because Sydney had an extremely tight rental market (about 1% vacancy rate).

        As for whether it's a tax grab - well, given the level of services people seem to expect, we're clearing taxing enough. Either you raise taxes or you cut something.

        The Libs aren't much better. Indexing income tax rates seems fine, but even incomplete indexing is going to cost $22 billion initially.

        In has been repeatedly said there are structural issues with taxation. Bigger, bolder solutions are required. One idea is to raise the GST to 15% food included and have an annual rebate given to every adult to compensate some of that effect - it basically results in a tax free threshold for GST.

        • They went up because Sydney had an extremely tight rental market

          Yes, but why was this? Why was there a shortage of investors offering houses for rent. Don't stop halfway, think it right through.

        • The extremely tight rental market was because of the exodus in existing and new investors. So yes it was because of a tight rental market, which in turn was because of the removal of NG.

  • Betoota advocate just did an article "with CGT changes , a landlord raises rents just because he can"

  • New tax rules, trying to tax renters more, trying to tax new buyers more, trying to tax the landlords, trying to tax your mum's dog, all a complete waste of time. You can't import a million people a year, not have housing or infrastructure and solve it through taxing people.

    • That is the albo socialist playbook! Seems to be working though as there were plenty of dumb people that voted him in.

      • Rent and housing price has doubled, but uber are now 5% cheaper and theres a new kebab shop opening up down the road, so worth it.

        • *NDIS business

      • 66% preferred someone else more highly than ALP.

  • 1 is correct and 2 is likely correct. 3 is a maybe but won't be too dramatic either.

    Even though new build areas will attract investors, there's still plenty of people who just want a new modern house. And there'll still be investors in old suburbs where new apartment blocks go up or houses are subdivided.

    • Here is where you miss the point and this is what happened after negative gearing was removed in 1985 by then Labor government.

      A big source of rental stock comes from investors buying property and putting it on the market for rent.(regardless if new or old)
      When investors abandon the property market this important source of rental stock dries up.

      Hence suddenly you have a reduction in places to rent…so what happens?
      Tenants start competing for whats left and so rents are driven up.
      On top of this you now have many migrants coming into the country looking for places to rent.

      So its a classic case of market forces pushing rents up dear friends.
      It happened between 1985 and 1987 and we didnt have all this mass migration into Australia.
      So pls dont tell us that rents wont be driven up.
      Not by the landlords though, rather by the tenants.

      You might also see property investors selling out before 1 July 2027 to maximise thier next capital gains after tax.
      Especially those that purchased over the last 1 to 3 years!
      This will simply exacerbate the shortage of rental properties.

      Remember: We have history in Australia showing that is is what DEFINITELY happens!

      • It happened in 1985 to 1987 … in Sydney and to a lesser extent in Perth. Not so much the rest of the country. The other cities had no effect.

        Both cities had the tightest rental markets in the country. Additionally in Sydney, housing construction was falling. Also, inflation at the time was running at 7.6%, so you have to account for that as well.

      • Interesting that someone effectively looked at the past, and draw a lesson from it, instead of wild speculations based on magical thinking.

        Shame you are not elected.

        It is going to be a blood bath.

        The only way forward is to have a better infrastructure, and more supply, both founded and owned by the government (state or federal level).

  • As always, most of the argy-bargy around the budget is just political noise, pro Labor are pro budget, anti are anti. I did see an interesting point from Alan Kohler on Sunday, he pointed out the Libs policy of linking immigration numbers to housing construction should mean that under a Lib govt we would have an increase in immigration. Ie housing construction is above population growth, based on the average Australian household size of 2.5. It seems Angus produced a policy that conflicts with his public claims, trying to outdo ON attacks on migrants.

    • Love that Libs are secretly pro-immigration.

    • Eh, I've seen quite a few Labor rusted ons that are de-rusting pretty quickly.

    • What does Angus Taylor classify as a home?

      Some landlords classify literal pigsty as a home…

    • Libs n Labor are never anti migration in history and in the future. If my understanding is correct, Libs try to strip off benefits for migrants and pro selective migrants (well it's their words anyway what politicians do is another matter).

      The only true anti immigration is One Nation, again it's also their words

      Historically, Labor is more generous when it comes to immigration (I hope someone proves me wrong). Libs did raise the bar for immigration and Labor lowers it.

      Your post sounds exactly like your content, only provide information/option supports your own prejudice, and it's ok, it's not better than other posts though.

    • That's just a deliberate misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the policy proposal.

  • I don't really care about the changes to property concessions, but what does removing the CGT discount for shares have to do with the price of property/rent?

    I do not own and investment property (and had zero intentions to ever- in fact, I have enough invested in ETFs currently for a deposit) but why provide 0 incentive for people to save and invest their money?

    • They wanted to not make it look like they are targeting just property so bam, all (well almost all) asset classes are treated the same.

      The irony of this is its so much worse for younger generation (those that are already struggling) to make more money.

      Sorry but

      1) no negative gearing for you (okay maybe it will impact property growth.. maybe not)
      2) no $18K tax free threshold for investing. They used to be able to retain all of the gains as long as they are within that threshold, not anymore

      • I think for the younger gen like myself who are trying to get ahead it's a kick in the stomach.

        Jim Chalmers even said in the interview to the ABC yesterday that only 1/10 people under the age of 35 invest their money in the Share market. Which does sound suspiciously low in my opinion.

        • It really does sound suspiciously low, I think the government has twisted this figure to make it seem like they're not screwing over the younger generations with higher taxes.

          Everyone I know within those age groups invests in shares and ETFs, they put leftover money into their low/zero brokerage app after each pay cycle, instead of keeping it in the bank. Of those people, only one or two own a home or investment property because they simply don't have the deposit or income to service the mortgage.

          • @kraigg: If you're so suspicious, what steps have you taken to confirm the actual percentage?

        • Technically speaking everyone who's ever had s job has money in super and thereby they have invested in the share market.

          1 in 10 people under 35 sounds about right when talking explicitly about the share market. We would have to see his sources, but I assume there's going to be some skew due to government not knowing everything, but I highly doubt it's anything higher then 1/5, and 1/10 sounds about right.

          • @Some Random Guy: Superannuation isn't impacted by CGT changes… yet lol.

            I daresay, the small circle of friends I do have are investing in ETFs. Both those that own a property and rent.

        • That scammer probably included people aged 0-18 in that bucket.

  • I don't think investors will be rushing to new builds just so they can take advantage of negative gearing? Time to build, cost to build, quality of the build, time that a renter is not in there etc… why would an investor go through this just to make use of negative gearing which allows them to lose slightly less money than before. Doing a new build probably comes at a premium too so they are probably even worse off.

    To be honest I don't think this drives many investors from the market.

    In my opinion one of the main reasons people flock to real estate is how easy it is and the leverage you get. House prices are slow moving, it is easy to get leverage (only need like 20% or less), it's backed by a high demand asset, unlikely to have any equivalent of a 'margin call', immigration is only ensuring that demand for housing will remain very high.

    What other investment is as 'low' risk as real estate?

    Sure you can get a margin loan on shares but you won't get the same leverage, you probably get given a list of blue chip stocks you can invest in and it's high risk by comparison, prices move fast. Look at CBA, put out a dud announcement and was down 15% in a few days for a relatively 'safe' blue chip stock.

    But everyone seems convinced that people won't invest in real estate unless they can take advantage of negative gearing? Because we have so many other better investment opportunities in this country? I am tipping many will still invest in property because of the leverage, risk and how easy it is vs other alternatives and you're likely to have a decent capital gain.

    • Your point on leverage is a very good one. Nothing is as easy to get leverage as property. So changes will take it from the most attractive investment by far to the most attractive by a smaller margin.

  • there is less focus on how this also affect small businesses. it will impact heavily on them. some owners I chat with late are very unhappy.

  • With negative gearing being restricted to new builds, property investors will be attracted to areas with a lot of new builds and away from established suburbs, potentially creating concentrated pockets of renters. We dont want the only place you can find a rental in Sydney to be The Ponds

    This is exactly what will happen, and the same reason rental prices will increase in the established suburbs. - Less houses available for rent, the market rate will shift upwards.

    • Why will there be fewer houses to rent in established suburbs?
      And if there is a decline, won't it be matched by people buying a place to live who no longer need to rent?

      The argument for raised rents hinges on unmet demand, but the changes are directed at increasing supply be limiting tax incentives to new builds.

      Undoubtedly continuing to run immigration higher than new property builds adds to demand, but that is a separate issue to the NG changes.

      • the changes are directed at increasing supply

        no they're not. They acknowledged that this is going to have a negative effect on house builds. Obviously! These rules were brought in to encourage development. Taking them away can't also encourage development.

        • From the budget explainer page 5:
          "The combination of the
          Government’s policies in this Budget will add to
          housing supply, which will exert downward
          pressure on rents over time."

          The change in established housing as investor stock is likely to be reduced as owner occupiers buy from those investors who were loss making.
          This is the desired outcome of the policy, to have additional owner occupiers replace landlords.
          The continuation of negative gearing for new builds preferences them for investors still seeking property investments, spurring additional building.
          The government is also doing other things besides tax to the increase new building.

          • @mskeggs:

            The combination

            yeah, they have ongoing failing plans to fix supply. They aren't even trying to pretend that this is part of that. Quite the opposite, they say inspite of this adding to the problem, we have other (albiet failing) policies to address supply.

            The change in established housing as investor stock is likely to be reduced as owner occupiers buy from those investors

            That doesn't add to supply… in fact they acknowledge there is less incentive to build

            This is the desired outcome of the policy, to have additional owner occupiers replace landlords

            Sure, but don't try to pretend that in any way helps the housing crisis. It just changes who owns the still-limited supply

            The continuation of negative gearing for new builds preferences them for investors still seeking property investments, spurring additional building.

            you wish, but it's accepted that it in fact won't. The figures I recall labor quoting were 165,000 less builds… but that's okay because we'll make up for that with our other (failing) policies

      • Why will there be fewer houses to rent in established suburbs?

        Because property investors will be attracted to new build areas instead.

        People who want to rent in the established suburbs will have fewer options, so prices rise.

        Their other option is to move miles away to a new build area where the rent will be cheaper.

        • But if these investors leave the established suburbs, won't the owner occupier buying be one less household seeking to rent?

          That is, absent changes in the number of people, won't one less investor mean one more owner occupier?

          • @mskeggs: Stop talking sense. You know that doesn't go down well in these parts.

          • @mskeggs: As I explained twice now… the investor doesn't disappear, he goes elsewhere. Renters will have to follow, or pay a premium to stay.

            Over time there will be fewer rental properties in established suburbs, and more rental properties in new-build outer suburbs.

            • @trapper: You haven’t answered mskeggs question though. If investors move out of the established suburbs to new suburbs then that leaves houses available to be bought by new owners. However, there are also new apartments and townhouses being built in established suburbs which are eligible for the negative hearing for renting. One house becomes many dwellings.

              • @try2bhelpful:

                there are also new apartments and townhouses being built in established suburbs which are eligible for the negative hearing for renting

                yes there will be some, but new builds are primarily in new suburbs. The net effect will be toward the new build suburbs.

              • @try2bhelpful:

                You haven’t answered mskeggs question though.

                here: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/17584127/redir

                • @trapper: You hadn’t posted that at the time I asked. However, I’ve now posted my answer to your posting. This will lead to an increase in multiplex dwelling spurred by negative gearing only applying to new dwellings. More dwellings in the same area equals more chance to rent. In fact the State Governments are pushing this increase in density in existing well serviced areas. These two initiatives go glove in hand.

            • @trapper: But the investor going elsewhere must sell - they can't truck their property off to the outer suburbs.
              And when they sell, if it is to an owner occupier, theat reduces demand and supply equally.

              I'm not understanding how an equal reduction in demand and supply for established suburbs will raise rents.

              If you mean that investors will be buying new builds in places where people don't want to live, that seems a very poor investment decision. Maybe they should consider some of the increasing density builds in existing suburbs.

              • @mskeggs:

                And when they sell, if it is to an owner occupier, theat reduces demand and supply equally.

                But not in the same suburb. As I keep having to point out…

        • So people will look to buy in those areas instead. It is likely house prices will stabilise or perhaps go down a bit. This makes them more attractive to àn owner rather than investor. The houses aren’t going to be torn down just might come on the market. Interestingly enough when I was a student we rented in both Malvern and Armadale. However, this was prior to the era of turbocharging housing as investment properties.

          • @try2bhelpful: I think this may be the confusion some others are having…

            If a rental property in a particular suburb is sold to an owner-occupier, that will not reduce the rental demand in that suburb.

            What happens is there is now one fewer rental property available, while the same number of people still want to rent there. In effect, one rental disappears and one additional household is competing for the remaining rentals.

            People do not rent because there aren't any houses for sale - there are always houses for sale. They rent either because they want to rent, or they want to buy but can't afford it.

            • @trapper: This will likely lead to an increase in new multiplex properties like apartments or villa units. One becomes many and renters get the area they want with àn overall increase in properties spurred by only negatively gearing something that increases the stock of housing.

              In Fitzroy we are seeing a boom in conversion of old warehouses into multi-storey complexes. So no lost housing becomes many properties.

            • @trapper: Who is the owner occupier buying to take this rental off the market? They either are a renter or are selling another property.
              Eventually, you get to the property being sold to a renter.

              They rent either because they want to rent, or they want to buy but can't afford it.

              And many have been saying they could be more likely to afford it if they had less competition from investors.

              • @mskeggs:

                They either are a renter or are selling another property.

                Or they're a new arrival or they are child of one of the new chosen caste ("the grandfathered").

                • @tenpercent: Fair. I did call out absent of a population change.
                  If it is a zero sum game, the changes will promote more housing because at the margin there will be investors who might have considered both old and new property who are incentivised to invest in new housing now.

              • @mskeggs:

                And many have been saying they could be more likely to afford it if they had less competition from investors.

                Prices aren't dropping, sorry man.

            • @trapper: What if that owner occupier was renting in the same suburb?

              Even if the owner occupier was in a different suburb, wouldn't that remove the renter from that suburb?

              Of course not all owner occupiers were renters, but many were.

              • @xylarr:

                Even if the owner occupier was in a different suburb, wouldn't that remove the renter from that suburb?

                Yes it will, as I have mentioned many times….

                The result is renters forced to move from older established suburbs, and out into new-build outer suburbs.

    • You can just as vaguely say that more renters will be able to purchase a home, so there'll be less demand. Less demand for houses means the market rate will shift downwards.

      That's the issue - anyone can make statements that work but it's not as simple as saying rent will definitely go up or down.

      • You can just as vaguely say that more renters will be able to purchase a home.

        Why though. Why will more renters will be able to purchase a home? You must give your reasoning.

        • Because the investors have run for the hills, so prices for homes will come down, or at least not go up as fast.

          • @xylarr: The prices are not going to come down when we are importing people much faster than houses are being built.

            There is no way around the simple economics of this - prices will continue to rise.

            If renters can't afford a house now, then they will also be unable to afford a more expensive house.

            See how reasoning works?

    1. You’re trying to make property investing less attractive right? So less rental properties on the market – only expensive new builds. If a renter can’t get into the new build, they’ll have to come to existing landlords who now want to make their money in rent rather than capital growth, so there will be minimum investment in maintenance and the rents will match the new builds, i.e. higher. If the rent isn't enough, no one is going to invest. The supply side can't demand low rents when there isn't enough to go around.

    2. Why would we see an investor selloff? This is only an incentive to pivot to new builds in the future. It would only be if owners decide rental income isn’t sufficient they would consider an exit strategy.
      Yes, at best there is the loss of both a rental property and a potential renter – so no difference to the supply issue.
      But don’t forget they acknowledge that this is going to reduce the number of homes being built, so actually it makes supply worse, and that makes rents higher.

    3. Inner city property is one of the most valuable things you could own. They can’t make more of it, and whoever has the most money will own it. I expect eventually most such property will be owned by the super-wealthy and large corporations.

  • Why do you think landlords in metro cities can't raise rent?

    I think there is a movement and mindset that all landlords will try to raise rent once the tenant's 12 month is up. Real estate agents are also incentivised to raise this as a suggestion too.

    the need to live in "in-demand" suburb doesn't change and the currrent rental market is ~1% unoccupied… you do the math.

    Btw, the cohort that is currently renting because they can't afford to buy (no deposit or not enough income to service) - the current situation isn't making it any easier with rising interest rates.

    I think there is a real fallacy that these recent government changes will help affordability. Time will tell.

    1. True in a strict economic theory sense but at an individual level it will test that ..right now some landlords will raise as their costs (state taxes, interest, etc) rise but they can only go to market if people wont pay more they can't charge more but a lot are under optimum or maximum rent already. .. longer term we have an increased cost of supply, which means less supply (in a rental sense as less investors buy .. which also can lower house price slightly as less overall buyers for established) which means higher rental prices. Your more renters become owners has no bearing as overall supply is well under and nothing is being done to address those issues and government taxes, charges and red tape are some of the biggest impedements to getting new stock delivered.
    2. it does increase rents.. just because you may lose a renter to a buyer (which you dont necessarily) it doesn't offset the fact that less houses available for rent means higher rents.We already have an undersupply so this just exacerbates it.
    3. unlikely though its happening in a way.. we are seeing the growth of institutional rent providers at scale (only small at moment but growing) government is taking away incentives for mum and dads whilst handing out grants, tax breaks and others to super funds, multinationals etc to own rental housing at scale which is new stock being built. Not a terible thing but the irony is that more money is going to offshore investors tax free while they screw high rents out of australians… a lot of this is for social housing too which will come with a mix of social issues.

    The bottom line .. the grandfathering will prevent a mass exodus of existing rental stock, if anythying it ensures it probably remains that way longer as people will be less inclined to sell given they cant replace. The leaving of treatments for neg gear with new stock prevents removing even more investment form new stock which is already struggling but mostly because the cost to produce is greater than the real value of the product so it isn't happening anyway. But because of all of this anyone who thought these changes were going to help young people it simply wont, but if they believe that neg gearing and capital gains tax concessions were inflating the market then they should believe it will have an impact for their kids or maybe in 10 years time.

  • there is going to be reduced investor interest in the market, our population is still growing through immigration and housing supply was already woefully behind BEFORE these investor impediments were announced. less investors mean less housing stock which means higher rents.

  • Every policy has winners and losers. Losers here are property investors and consequently, renters. Although the consequences are intentionally exaggerated.

    Winners here are home owners.

    In my view, Labor also takes this opportunity to do more "tax grab", by extending CGT discount affects to all assets and taxing trust.

    As always, idea is cheap, execution is everything. Government is especially bad at execution, and Labor is famously bad at it as well.

  • If the market truly is in the situation where you "need" negative gearing and ridiculous capital speculative growth in housing prices to ensure enough rentals are available then the system is well and truly cooked and unsustainable anyway.

  • Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow.
    Everyone thinks they can predict the random chaos of markets.

    • Tru dat. Especially as Trump has entered the building. However, modelling outcomes is still a better idea than crossing your fingers and hoping.

  • fear mongering in the wake of the budget

    You missed the elephant in the room - how overpriced the Australian real estate market is. Compare to Japan from in the decades around 1990 and China 2020.

    • but I think you are missing the other elephant in the room which is Australia is one of the most desirable places to live. You can't compare it to Japan i'm sorry.

  • NG and CGT change is a Master stroke from Govt. Essentially; they are looking to transfer responsibility of building new houses from Govt to Public by luring them with tax benefits.

    • except the benefit is less than before. and if indeed investors make a bee line for new builds to maximise deductions, construction costs will increase. I personally think a lot of mum/dad investors will simply pile all their spare funds into their super, then get a rude shock in a few years time when the government decide they want that too.

  • The NG change only discourages wage earning start-up investors. Not against of NG but also not a fan of it because it hinges on the investor is consistently paying high tax from wages, otherwise there is no incentive.

    • Investors with multiple IPs are unlikely be to affected: they would not have all of them running at losses. Some would be positively geared, any losses from new acquisitions would continue to offset from profit making IPs.

    • Investors with one IP: if it is negatively geared, continue. If it is positively geared, same principle as above.

    Even if NG is allow on new builds, remember this is an one off incentive when you are buying new, it is not new to other investors when you want to sell it.

  • If there's going to be billions more devoted to helping new housing over the next 5-10 years, and possibly even more investment in new housing, then anyone in the property bubble should probably be worried. Developing new area and houses isn't easy but it's not exactly rocket science.

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