This is the issue with WFH it eventually becomes work from a 3rd world country that is a fraction of the cost of hiring a local - are we seeing the death of tech jobs?
Orignal source
https://www.afr.com/companies/financial-services/nab-plans-t…
get around paywall
Don't let reality get in the way when OP has an axe to grind
What I would say WFH has done is proven to employers that for many functions a team of remote workers can get the job done just as well as a team of in person workers. I think they would have been extremely sceptical of this fact before Covid became a massive social experiment in large scale remote working.
So if your staff are all successfully WFH in Australia then they may as well be working from Vietnam or India, where the labour costs are a lot cheaper.
I don't think it has anything to do with WFH… Offshoring has been happening for ages.
There are distinct pros and cons to having work offshored, if the pros outweigh the cons most employers will do it.
Having local employees, whether in office or at home has many advantages. If those advantages are important the employer would go for that.
Have you tried working with outsourced employees? Its very different
If your job can be done at home, forcing you into the office will not change that fact.
The reality is employing staff in Australia is expensive and the red tape and compliance issues make offshoring attractive in some cases. This is nothing to with WFH.
How does it take WFH policies to figure out that someone sitting at a computer all day can be done from anywhere in the world?
well tbf, many companies just took the status quo until covid forced them. "this is the way we've always done it".
An example is some Tech services roles (engineers, geologists, survey) in mining. They've realised they are just working on computers all day, on site, and dont leave the office, so there isnt really a need for them to be on site. Leave them at home or in the corp office, can avoid the FIFO costs + salaries.
I think however it will take a significant event for the situation to reverse. Like a good landslide or comms go down at a critical moment, and it costs them more to fix it than the money saved
if your job can be done at home it can be done by someone demanding a much lower salary then you stop gaslighting people with this BS
WFH benefits those who otherwise have to go into an office, so all of those jobs could in theory be done by someone overseas. WFH doesn't change that fact, I think you're just bitter because you either can't actually WFH, or you're one of those useless, irrelevant middle-management types who need people in the office to make you feel important.
if your job can be done at home it can be done by someone demanding a much lower salary then you stop gaslighting people with this BS
most jobs can be done at home. whether or not it's effecient to do so is a different story.
It's also hard to keep an eye on things when everyone is WFH. particularly if there are performance issues.
It depends on the skills involved and the quality of the work, or lack thereof, that the employer is willing to accept.
Call centre operator is basically an unskilled job with some on the job training about how to take calls, scripts to read, and learning some company specific knowledge of the business area they are taking calls for.
agreed.
I travel over the world in mining, and sites might be hiring up to 5 "professionals" for an equivalent position in australia that has 1 person. In additional all the extra resources to look after these people. I rarely see security on an australian mine, but on mine sites overseas they require teams of people to search people and cars. The local governments are happy because the mine is hiring thousands of workers, i just dont think it's more efficient than australia (in some instances). If you google "cost of production (comodity) mine AISC", google will give you the price per pound to mine. It varies by so much, even in the same country
Anyway, was a bit off topic, i just dont think outsourcing jobs is a licence to print money like everyone thinks
They may be able to speak English, but I usually find that offshore call centre people are as 'thick as a brick', rarely can understand your issues etc. and take 10 times the time to sort it out than an Aussie would.
100% agreed. So refreshing to call companies like globird and speak to someone local who is on the ball and can sort out what you need. Meanwhile the overseas call centres you spend as much time or more just explaining or worse yet going in circles.
wow globird mentioned for exemplary customer service, never thought i'd see that. Maybe things have improved from the time i was with them 8 or so years ago
Absolutely. It's a false economy. Optus is the absolute worst in my experience of dealing with these offshore teams.
Ring up service NSW, speak to someone local and the call takes 5 minutes. If it was the Optus call centre it would take 2 hours for the same item.
Optus owned by a foreign government, bleeding Australia dry. Their customers quite literally dying from Optus incompetence and negligence. End stage capitalism at its finest.
How they even still have customers i do not know.
Dealing with Uber’s customer service makes me appreciate my fellow Australians even more
I've found that they can be helpful, but they are extremely hard to understand. Their accent, combined with what is probably a very cheap headset and international routing means that I can barely understand them, I've never managed to understand one of their names, because they're usually foreign names and combined with the terrible call quality the name becomes unintelligible.
not much consolation being helpful when majority are absolutely useless and need to spend the first 15 minutes "bringing up your details"
Imagine the frustration of being an Optus customer trying to explain to these semi literate morons that you can't make a call to 000.
Your frustration is legitimate. However, the people you need to be angry with are Optus management who will sell the work to the cheapest bidder and do nothing when you complain about overseas workers. If Optus had your best interests in mind, they won't outsource, no matter the destination.
That's why they should have chosen workers from The Philippines instead. Everyone in the call centres are college graduates.
Would you rather they came here to do the job?
My last 2 Uber Eats deliveries were not from people from India and Vietnam
My last doordash guy was English.
I rarely see my uber eats peeps. They just leave the delivery at the door and send a message when it is there.
So all I know about them is that they know where I live.
@Muppet Detector: But there is a photo and a name. Not saying that's a way to tell where they are from.
@Lucille Bluth: I've never cared enough to pay that much attention. They're bringing me food (that some other stranger has cooked), not coming to guide the effectiveness or the legalities of my financial decision making or to babysit my children.
A pop up says "food's on the way". Another one says "it's here". What more do I need to know?
@Muppet Detector: It sometimes matters if you are staying at a hotel where there are many uber delivery people, to be able to know which delivery person is yours. And you get prompted to leave a review. Otherwise you're right.
Are you saying they weren't taking bank customer calls? /s
To my surprise I had an Italian (complete with the accent) deliver the other day. Everything was packed so nicely and there were no issues with the delivery.
Big difference between students and the kind of engineers the likes of NAB would hire overseas
Maybe they could give them the homes of people who don’t work, then send those people off to India and Vietnam in return. A sort of cultural exchange program, swapping unproductive leaners for productive lifters.
You do realise that unemployment is primarily caused by a lack of supply of jobs relative to the number of people looking for jobs, right?
And of course you also realise that the participation rate is near historic highs too? (See Figure 1: https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/employmen…)
@tenpercent: I see plenty of people who are not participating due to our overly generous welfare system. Why go to work and do better for yourself when you can bum around on benefits?
@JIMB0: The data combined with your anecdotal evidence suggests either (a) you live in or frequent Braybrook / St Albans, and/or (b) you work in a customer facing role at a Centrelink office, and/or (c) you consume Murdoch media content for breakfast lunch and dinner.
@tenpercent: I frequent the Melbourne CBD, use public transport and have eyes. You don’t need Murdoch media to notice there’s a visible cohort completely detached from society and work.
NAB Plans to Hire up to 1000 More Staff in India and Vietnam
So NAB plans to sack more local jobs then….
It's a disgrace, nearly 18% of the NAB workforce is now overseas, that is 7000 Australian jobs not here. All while making record profits.
Should change their name to IAB. International Australia Bank.
The issue with WFH is that that companies decide its cheaper and better to hire people from overseas?
Sorry buddy but the logic there makes no sense.
Businesses will always cut costs where possible and if the quality of overseas workers is better on a per hour basis then they'll hire overseas workers.
My friend runs a small business and hires overseas workers because they're better than Aussie workers. Australians will come in, work a year or two then (profanity) off. You get much better loyalty from overseas workers and the qualifications are similar. Not to mention they're cheaper to boot.
Nothing to do with WFH. You honestly have some bizarre takes and really don't think critically about your biases. Seems like you're scared of having a better life because you have low job security.
My entire team has been WFH for 6 years now. No cuts in that time, no overseas hiring. We just get the job done. And everyone is super happy/works hard because the work is good.
Likewise I tend to ignore/block you most of the time as your takes are very far-right/conspiracy theory, but I try and reach out every now and again to help you out. :)
Best of luck mate, hope you figure things out and find some happiness in your life.
WFH it eventually becomes work from a 3rd world country
ive always thought of NAB as a 3rd world bank tbh, never had a good experience with them
You should have to pay more in tax for offshoring a job than from doing it domestically. The banks can afford it.
Agreed. Only ever used nab for in in between cheeky credit card churn. Closed the account asap once bonus paid out
yup, even closing the accounts was a massive hassle, on the 2 occasions I had to contact AFCA to force them to close the account.
To nab’s credit closing the account I found was easy. The cs agent didn’t even try to fight it was just like aight see ya for the next cc churn.
I think at the time most of the ozbargainers signing up for it were just doing the same thing within days of opening. Sign up, get credit, dump.
I love NAB. When my OH left high school, they gave him a job and then also payed him to train and play water polo all over the world for 15 odd years lol.
WFH has nothing to do with this.
Companies have been outsourcing work internationally for the last 30 years or more.
Yeah I remember when I was in high school and optus had outsourced in India and that was only a couple of years ago… Even AussieBB uses "local aussies" for support as their marketing. Has nothing to do with WFH… because pre covid, they already outsourced. It's happening because its cheap and usually able to get 24 hours support. Even the big four accounting farms have all outsourced i.t and 2 staff in office. Deloitte, pwc,ey and whatever the other one is.
and recent policies being introduced are encouraging companies to outsource more work rather than hire locally…
Got any examples of these "policies"?
The Victoria Labor mandate of WFH onto private businesses is an example. The Nanny State telling private operators how to run their business within Australia. Policy dictated by morons who couldn't produce a loaf of bread in a bakery if their life depended on it.
We need a political party to tax any offshored work.
My proposal: if you generate less % revenue then the salaries you pay overseas, you would pay a 100% tax on the salaries overseas.
E.g Nab revenue would be 0% for India but salaries at ~20%, the tax would essentially double their offshore salary costs.
If you owned a business and were looking to hire staff that can work remotely, what would be your choice - Vietnam at about $A6,000pa, or Australia at about $A50,000 pa?
The staff in Vietnam aren't working remotely though, they're working in offices too. NAB isn't just picking up someone off the Vietnamese equivalent of Gumtree and mailing them a laptop, they offshore the entire team, management and all, to go work in an office together and deliver. Same training, competing heavily for the same English speaking staff that other companies are going after, it's not as easy as just recruiting someone in a foreign country.
That's right. NAB have been playing the long game with this by setting up operations years ago in Vietnam.
Bonus for employers: Outsource to a contractor. When something goes wrong you can blame the contractor and say 'it wasn't me or my employees!'
Where you getting the $6,000 pa ?
I’ve run 5 offshore dev teams in Vietnam HCMC. Hanoi and Danang.
You don’t have an idea in the rates mate.
Hyperbole amount. Even Call center FTEs in VN cost more than that
Exactly
Not new.
Even the offshore people are screwed as fewer of them will be needed once agentic bots take over.
You start off with 5000 employees
Replace them with 5000 off shore employees
Add in agentic bots
Then reduce the off shore employees to 50 so they can monitor the agentic bots and then handle anything that can't be resolved.
AI won't take your job, it will make you more efficient at your job. It will take the job of the other 4950 people.
AI won't take your job, it will make you more efficient at your job. It will take the job of the other 4950 people.
Right up to the point that it just stops working and goes straight into the bin
I believe they were trying to count the stock by visualising it which is stupid.
You know Elons space robot/terminator factory just started right…
I believe they were trying to count the stock by visualising it which is stupid.
Yeah, though to be fair, that's the same method the humans use. And outside of additional hardware, the only way.
@Crow K: I'm not sure if the AI was actually handling the stock itself. I've probably done over 100 stock takes in my lifetime, it's an absolute shamozzle.
Doubt the AI will ever do a job of manual handling and using their brain whilst we're still use LLMs for AI.
In fairness thisbis a good post but ill counter and say i feel like once Robo taxi becime main stream it will get rid of Uber/bus/taxi drivers
Yes.
"hire some guys from a 3rd world country for 1 10th of your salary"
I agree with the overall comment, but this specific part, the article says otherwise:
"A few years ago, new workers out of a Bangalore technology university might start on about $30,000 a year, between a third and a half of what similar graduates in Melbourne or Sydney would command.
But the gap is closing and can be almost non-existent for the best quality workers, following years of growing demand from global banks and technology companies for local talent."
and
"“There is amazing talent in India, but India is a hard market to hire in because there’s a huge amount of competition. It’s not only Australian banks fishing in that pond; Europeans and Americans are too,” said Nick Therkelsen, a partner at Bain Australia, a consultancy advising banks on AI and staff strategy.
“The big tech companies are looking for top talent – and paying essentially American wages,” said Therkelsen."
A few years ago, new workers out of a Bangalore technology university might start on about $30,000 a year
True in my experience, the indian offshore contractors i've seen salaries for are making a third of their australian counterparts, not 1/10th.
Then there is the consultancy taking almost as much again, so the outsourcing company is only saving ~30%, and getting a worse employee for that small saving due to time zone and communication barriers.
My company pays Indian graduates $10k a year… TEN
@trapper: This would be on the bottom grade of pay for IT jobs in cities like say Bangalore. Usually fresher level salaries at those consultancies. This I feel is one of the main problems with the way some companies here do outsourcing - pick the cheapest possible option, and end up getting people lower on the skills spectrum.
This would be on the bottom grade of pay for IT jobs in cities like say Bangalore…
Graduates are normally in the bottom pay grade, it's true.
If you believe, showing up in person at work is the only additional value you offer for your employer, when compared to your offshore counterparts, then yes I agree with you on the reasoning that your job is likely to be offshored if you insist wfh. However, for many others, showing their faces in person in offices is not the only value add they can offer compared to their offshore alternative.
This post is an absolute classic.
Absolutely spot on, unbridled, logical sense, but peeps don't like the reality or truthfulness of the message so they negged you. LOLOL.
Shooting the messenger.
Jeez I love Australia.
We need to keep costs down in Australia.
$100/hour to stand and hold up a lollypop. Yep.
@Duckie2hh: They're not getting paid to hold the lollipop. They're being paid to fight the temptation to lick it.
@Duckie2hh: 99.99999999% of traffic controllers dont earn that.
The "$100 an hour traffic controller" is an urban myth that gets thrown around on talkback radio and social media, but it drastically misrepresents what majority workers take home.
The baseline award rates consist of:
Full-Time / Part-Time Base Rate: ~$29.74 per hour
Casual Base Rate (includes 25% casual loading): ~$37.17 per hour
I know many that supply their own radios and dont get paid to travel to the job dont get required breaks no toilet facilities on site etc.
CFMEU workers are the ones on the big money and they represent a tiny tiny number of Traffic controllers out there.
Even they are not on $100 a hour they are on $55/hour but they have excellent penalty rates and other conditions that then might for a few of them (Just a few) closer to $100.
Dont believe everything the media tells you.
@2esc: https://au.seek.com/job/92301689?ref=search-standalone&type=…
$46/hour. +overtime rate of 1.5x. = $69/hour. The government probably pays way more than this to the companies.
No wonder our big builds are always over budget.
Don't even get me started on 40km/h "work zones" on Sundays and middle of the night, just because people are too lazy to take down the signs when they leave work for the day.
@2esc: Was driving around town with a mate and we were started at a lollipop man.
He looked pretty cheery so we asked how much he was getting.
Sunday night rate ~ $90/hr. Clearly did not have any CFMEU affiliations. Was a private contractor/traffic management company.
That was about a year ago.
Sample size 1, will need more samples.
@Duckie2hh: That fact that we still have jobs like this, that very clearly could be automated with even 1990 technology makes me doubt AI is really about to wipe out 50% of jobs like they claim…
Cost cutting is beneficial for the near future but eventually you are just disenfranchising your own population… I don’t know what the perfect solution is but reading case studies of the long term effects that offshoring industries has had on the US, makes me hope that we don’t send any more of our manufacturing and jobs to other countries.
NAB can do whatever it wants in the free market, yes. But this is the point where i can’t help but lean left, expect my government to force these companies to prioritise Australia’s best interests…or just end their already unfair tax benefits.
NAB can do whatever it wants in the free market, yes. But this is the point where i can’t help but lean left, expect my government to force these companies to prioritise Australia’s best interests…or just end their already unfair tax benefits.
They have an ADI license and an AFSL and/or ACL. They have special permission from our Australian government to essentially create AUD out of thin air whenever they lend money. Surely it isn't too much to require a business with this special power in Australia to also employ Australians first and foremost.
@tenpercent: They can always tax them more, Oz banks are the most profitable banks in the world. While they're at it, grow a pair of balls and tax mining sector more. Instead of go after average John, what kind of public servant is it ? But I won't hold my breath…
@tenpercent: Absolutely
This should just squash all of those free market arguments too…
Can’t call a market free if the government’s already well involved and currying favours for its biggest donors.
To what end? We already don't make anything, soon we won't actually do anything of value.
@smartazz104: I wonder where all that money went? looks menacingly at houses
Also we do make stuff. Urban PHON voter myth that we don't. Its true we don't make cars but one-of things and large equipment still get built in Australia. Also we have a governments fighting to keep many industrial works open. Also buses! Pretty sure I read an article that mentioned the NSW new bus fleet is wholly manufactured in NSW.
WFH makes it easier to fire local workers and hire internationally. The worker isn't in the office anyway, so what difference does it make if they are five time zones away and start work at 4am?
But WFH isn't the sole cause of outsourcing and off shoring. It has been happening for decades, and will continue.
Can OP be placed in the penalty box already?
For?
This has been going on for 25 years, long before WFH was even a thing.