How Much It Costs to Go on Court for Appealing a Parking Ticket?

Hi OZB fellows,

I recently received a fine for parking within 10 metres from an intersection, which asks for $242. I tried to appeal online and got rejected today.

The reason I park there is I didn't think it is an intersection, and only thought it's a curved elbow shaped road.

On the map, two roads with different names joint there, however on the spot there is no road sign, no no-stop sign and it's a curly round turn.

I parked at the inner part of the elbow, and the on the other side of the road there is a big driveway rather than actual road.

How much will it cost to go court, and do I have good chance to get it waived as I have no way to identify this is a intersection on the spot?

For your information, here is the street view of the site, and I've parked on the left side of the screen. I knew this place is a bit dodgy but I was in a hurry that morning, and I saw people park there at all time.

cheers,
Mily

———-Edit 07-07——————
I have been there again and double checked the signs, the little white sign in street view is actually behind the gate of international house, and the words on the sign are some "restricted parking area". Therefore that sign is not on Hindmarsh ave, and should belong to the university.

Except a little sign on the power pole after the gate(wall) of the international house, which is so far and kind of merged into the white board behind it, there are no other signs or lines on either Hindmarsh ave and Porter st at that corner. People parks right next to the big drive way kerb (within 1 metre) on both sides of the driveway, and no yellow envelop on their windscreen so far. Finger crossing for them, as they are actually parking in the intersection rather than close to.

Thanks for all your supports and suggestions fellows, I will check if there is any legal aids for free, and will bring it to court if there are any chances to win.

Regards,
Mily

Comments

  • on this topic, sometimes i saw people throw away their ticket. What are the consequences of ignoring fine tickets (for illegal parking, parking in the wrong zone, etc)?
    Will we get trouble in the future when selling our car for example? or we get criminal record after xxx unpaid tickets?

    • +2

      If it's a ticket from council, the ranger records your rego number, unless you are not the owner, the fine will accumulate and post to your address.

      • yes but what are the consequences if we ignore them? criminal record? record against our car (new owner can check if we try to sell in the future?) or nothing?

        • I reckon once you as the owner receive written notice, you are obliged to react to the notice, otherwise it gets worse unless you can prove it has never arrived at your hands.

        • @mily: ok thanks. so in general, people pays.. but still want to know the consequences of ignoring completely.

        • @erwinsie:
          I have no experience on ignoring fines, and little experiences on receiving fines, so I could be deadly wrong on these issues.

        • @mily: yeah all ozb members are following law..

        • +6

          @erwinsie: depends on where you live, NSW may cancel your licence and the cop will the stop you some day, issue another ticket for driving unlicenced and if you ignore that then you could be arrest and go to court. It might be a bit different in VIC where in a fine weekend you decide to go shopping, walk out of the shop with a trolley full of grocery only to find that your car has been clamped and a big yellow/black sticker on the windscreens, rather embarrasing.

          Not sure about other states though.

        • +1

          @erwinsie: I have a couple of mates that owe a lot of money to SPUR (>$15k) for unpaid parking fines, unpaid toll charges etc. They have no intention of paying these fines and because SPUR doesn't have their current address, can't chase them for the money. They pay taxes and renew their rego every year without any action from SPUR. They are getting off scot free and there doesn't seem to be anything SPUR can do about it.

        • @dogboy:
          Thanks. Wow so disappointed about our government method of enforcing law.. Why but just record the plate number against any tickets issued and then block the car.

        • +4

          The fine keeps getting worse.

          The council will send out a few notice reminders.

          It eventually take it to court afterwards. When this happens, the total amount you ow jumps from ~70ish for the original fine (depending on the infringement) to ~$300 because of court fees + admin fees from notice reminders.

          If you still don't pay pursuant to the court order, the council can probably get a default judgment against you. Add an extra ~$300 on top of the previous $300. Your total due is now ~$600 per fine/infringement.

          And if you're still ignoring, not paying, it can take the last step and file a case for personal insolvency at the federal court level.

          When that happens, stack another of admin and court fees, you're looking at total due of about $1k, if you don't want the personal insolvency to proceed.

        • +1

          You get a reminder after about 2 weeks, then after the due date it goes up by $65, then it goes up again, then your license is cancelled, then any cars in your name are cancelled, to get it all reversed you pretty much have to go to court.

        • @dogboy: I had a fine for toll evasion when I had a fully paid up account for my tag. I ignored it waiting the time to fight it. Then went to get my license renewed and was denied as it was suspended by SPER for not paying the toll fine. She could not help me with it but could see the details and told me to ring them. I was shocked and told the customer service rep that I had no idea, had not received notice that they were suspending my license. She said that is not unusual. So if I had been pulled over for any offense in the meantime, I could have been done for driving whilst suspended. Have your mates actually checked on the status of their license? They could be suspended but just not know about it.

        • +2

          @mily: "I have no experience on ignoring fines, and little experiences on receiving fines" - model citizen here! This is the guy negging the Uber deals ;)

        • @ernwinsie:

          Had a friend who sold his car (and lost his seller copy of the vehicle transfer form) in QLD. The guy who bought it did not like the car so he did not transfer the registration. Friend left the country for good couple days later (thats why he sold the car). Guy who bought chocked up a TON of infringements, tolls, parking, you name if. Notices kept stacking up in his last known address. Apparently department of immigration and traffic infringements don't communicate at all as this went on for almost a year. My friend tried to tell them that he could not have been responsible because he clearly was not in the country (as immigration would have registered).

          Not sure what happened in the end, registration lapsed and I'm not sure how friend resolved it either but it seems like they just gave up after awhile.It seemed like the guy was never caught either.

        • @dogboy:

          Which State or Territory is this in?

          In Victoria it is just a matter of time before they get picked up.

        • +2

          So, my son went thru similar (not paying ticket): The fine gets sent to OWNER of vehicle and they can then NOMINATE the actual driver.

          Fast forward 2 yrs: the Sherrif gets involved, the fine is like 6x the original amount. You can pay with a discount?, put on your centrelink for instalments. Eventually IN RARE CASES you can be jailed x no. of days for each $100 of fine.

          Some states will not let you renew your licence (this happened to my son) or renew your car rego until all fines are paid.

          On positive side, no CRIMINAL record, but you are then KNOWN to police, and are in the court system.

          (Advice to parents: in most cases no matter how much you advise your kids and point out the consequences they will still do what they choose)

          :)

        • @ameel: There are minimum amounts required to bankrupt someone. The cost of doing so also is not cheap, so generally Councils won't take action like that except for in the case of years of unpaid rates.

        • @erwinsie:
          I have several parking fines from when the council used to patrol our work carpark. The centre is owned by Lend Lease who contracted the enforcement of parking restrictions out to the council. I received my parking fines (3) in 2009 over the space of several days when out carpark was quiet and there were very few customer cars there. I ignored the $20 fines on principle (inspectors very clearly just making their quota). I now receive a reminde every 6 months from SPER (in QLD) and the fine has risen to $81, but hasn't risen further in about 3 years. I have never had any problem renewing licences or rego here in QLD.

        • @lgacb08: It wouldn't take too long to see a big yellow sticker on your car either, with all of the mobile number plate scanners we have in VIC, there's probably a "last seen" system of some sort in the police database with maybe even a history log to track driving habits and basically know where you work and shop. Dumb criminals are often caught like this from myki logs tracking their commutes so I wouldn't be surprised if police use the same tactic.

        • -1

          @ascorbic: from my experience, sheriff/council usually waits until the busiest shopping period comes then they just drive their caravan truck into a big shop and swoop a few cars. Needless to say this is very effective because unless you come up with a nice story, your car will be clamped there forever (that's what I thought). Last time I saw it happened was Easter weekend, few years ago Maribyrnong council made the thing came up on The Age.

          May be QLD SPER thing should learn this from VIC so Flying Ace pays up.

        • @ascorbic: isn't is illegal to track without a warrant ? What if someone sues the Vic govt for this. I see a trend here that people don't sue the state enough on their wrong moves like UK

        • @regenade: I'm not even sure if what I proposed is what actually happens in the police department but it doesn't seem illegal because it would be more passive record keeping than active tracking. Also, I think they only need a warrant to access the data, not collect and store it but I don't know much about the legislation surrounding this. What I definitely know is that the police need a warrant to access data from private entities like PTV (for myki data).

        • simple as, if you are in NSW and fines were issued by council or police. you will be unable to register the car until all outstanding fines are paid, that are recorded to the registration of that car.

          you still have the choice of not paying the fine… you will just not be able to register the car.

        • @Archi: thanks.

    • +7

      They get paid a special allowance for the abuse they receive, so you're obligated to abuse them.

    • +3

      the SDRO will take further action including cancellation of licence, car rego as well as garnishing wages. Normally it is good practice to ignore the initial fine you get under the window and only pay when you get the letter in the mail. This gives you more time to pay the fine without penalty, also sometimes the fine is incorrectly entered into the system by the ranger. In this instance you might not get the letter at all.

      • There are also dodgy operators out there who opportunistically "fine" a car with the hope they pay up.

        • Yep, ignore "fines" from private operators. Only the gullible pay them.

        • @mrjames: How to tell the difference which are private operators and not???

        • @piggiepanda:

          I assume private operators would be wearing for example, a SecureParking uniform, and walking around a SecureParking lot. If you're parking on the street that is not private property, then its from council.

        • @Ughhh: we pay only legally enforceable fines which of course the council fines are. You can always ask for a picture proof to get away with of they don't have one.

        • @Ughhh: Can we tell the difference from the fine ticket issued??? Example you dont see the operator

        • @piggiepanda:

          Fines will tell you how and where to pay. That should give you a clue.

        • @Ughhh: I've read that there are fakes one out there, that's why i asked.. So yeah at this moment since i dont have a fine ticket with me i wont know…lol

    • seeing how serious of the penalty/consequences i am wondering how come some people still brave enough to park illegally, sometimes right under the pole of do not parking sign.

    • In the NT fines get passed to the government agency 'fines recovery unit' where they then send you a reminder at an extra cost of about $35 and they can suspend your licence/rego for failing to act. If you talk to them and ask for a payment plan they will make you pay minimum amount each pay and you are all good to go.

    • they will clamp your car until you pay the fines

    • +1

      It will go to the sherif's office your car could be clamped, you could get a summons to court meaning you will need to pay court costs. Sherif office tickets can easily accumulate to over $10,000

      Why would you do all that over a $100 ticket?

    • I've seen someone swap tickets with another car. When I asked why, he said that they could both claim that they received an incorrect ticket! Not sure if that worked or not.

      • What rubbish @annon2804 if you swap a fine with your rego on it and stick it on another car then you will get a reminder in the mail to pay YOUR fine

  • +3

    it's a t junction. porter st continues into restricted parking area.

    • +1

      Yes, I know it from reading the map, however there is no road sign telling me this is a T-junction on the spot. Would this be a valid reason for getting a fine waiver?

      • what's the office code?

        • +1

          I have no idea what "office" you mentioned here, could you explain a bit more?

        • +1

          @mily:

          all infringement/penalty notices must have an offence code recorded. if it doesn't, then it would be an invalid infringement/penalty notice. it's four digit code/number.

          edit
          stupid auto-correct. office > offence.

        • @whooah1979:
          I don't find an office number (four digits) on the original penalty notice.

          All I could find are infringement number, my rego number, offence number (83423) and the penalty and barcode.

      • +4

        No, t-junctions are intersections. Its pretty ridiculous, as that looks more like a large private business driveway (which would not be a fine) than a street. Unfortunately, there is a small street sign visible from where you parked on the pole on the outside of the bend. It IS hard to see that sign as the large white sign would be directly behind it from where you were parked. There really should be better signage (e.g. no standing signs) than there is - especially as on goog maps there is the blue car parked clearly within 10m of the intersection – so you're not the only one who finds it unclear. And this is why people hate councils…

        • +3

          I will go there tomorrow and double check what's on that street sign on the outside of the bend, from memory it is a no-parking sign to stop people parking near the big drive way.

          I understand T-junction is a intersection, however because of the driveway, I never realised this is a T-junction until I checked the map after receiving the fine, and this does look like a continuous bending road with a big driveway on the corner to me.

    • +4

      I personally reckon you should take this to court. I would act ignorant and argue that you thought the white concrete and curved gutter looked like a private driveway rather than a road.

      • +2

        I would act ignorant and argue that you thought the white concrete and curved gutter looked like a private driveway rather than a road.

        Honestly, this is pretty terrible advice. Ignorance is not a defence. Especially when the OP has said, "I knew this place is a bit dodgy but I was in a hurry".

        The only way you might win, is NOT by saying the law is wrong and NOT by saying you were ignorant, but rather by bringing forward the argument that the law does NOT APPLY here, namely, that this is not an intersection. Otherwise, whether you knew it was an intersection or not, if you parked within 10m of it, as per the law, you're guilty of an offence. Tough bikkies.

  • +2

    costs nothing to get it heard, but you might need to pay court costs depending on the decision. from experience, this was somewhere between $85-$89 from memory (guilty plea).

    • -2

      an offence will also be recorded.

      • +1

        Really? Will parking issue become an offence after going the court, if the decision is not in my favor?

      • -1

        its not a criminal offence, its considered civil action

        • There are a number of ways an infringement can be heard and determined in court. However, generally speaking, a finding of guilt will be recorded if you contest a fine in court and lose. The finding of guilt will appear on your criminal record.

          It will be a criminal proceeding and not a civil proceeding. You should seek advice from your local community legal centre.

        • @cacbm: I don't think that's right - I think it will show on your traffic record regardless, but not on your criminal record.

        • +3

          @Sindex: I'm a criminal lawyer.

          If you're in Victoria, the Law Handbook produced by the Fitzroy Legal Service provides a good summary on this here: http://www.lawhandbook.org.au/handbook/ch04s04s05.php Note that the heading Court penalties refers to the range of sentencing options provided under the Sentencing Act.

          I don't often comment on forums, but I'd hate to see people copping a criminal record, however minor, for no apparent reason.

        • +1

          @cacbm: Looking at the NSW Law Handbook, it seems you're right - payment of the fine avoids a court attendance notice being issued which would bring it into a criminal proceeding.

          I don't remember ever seeing a parking fine on a criminal record, but I'm glad you've got the OP's back.

          But regarding the Vic Law Handbook reference to penalties, the OP couldn't be imprisoned for this offence - the maximum penalty for Law Part Code 83423 is a $2,200 fine at the Local Court.

          None of this is a replacement for real legal advice though!

        • +1

          @Sindex:

          If you pay for an infringement, it is considered being dealt with administratively, and wouldn't be considered a finding of guilt when you do a police check.

          You can, of course, elect to have the infringement heard and determined in court. Typically, people will only consider this option after not getting a satisfactory result from an internal review by the enforcement agency.

          At this point, the infringement will be withdrawn, and charge and summons will be issued. The matter will then proceed as if it's a 'typical' criminal matter. You will have two options, pleading guilty or not guilty.

          If you plead guilty, there will be a finding of guilt recorded, and the penalty associated with the offence will be determined by the magistrate. The relevant act concerning the charge will usually provide a maximum penalty, and the magistrate will have discretion under the relevant sentencing act to impose a sentence appropriate to the accused person's circumstances. Note that 'sentence' doesn't mean imprisonment, and in fact it can mean no actual penalty being imposed beyond the finding of guilt.

          If you plead not guilty, it is likely that you will need to attend the court for at least a few times, with a contested hearing waiting for you at the end. You may acquitted or be found guilty at the end. Not too many infringements ended up in a contested situation for obvious reasons (time, effort).

          Either way, if the court finds you guilty, it will appear on your criminal record and will appear on police check. Of course, it's not like it's murder or anything, and I doubt it will have any real implication on one's life. Still, personally I just don't think it's worth the hassle in most situations.

        • +1

          @cacbm: if the court finds me not guilty, does it mean the ranger who logged my car initially Will be found guilty of miscounduct and leave a record in their criminal check or police check? If that's the case I believe they are less likely to fine people for no good reason.

    • +1

      Thanks, but if it's a decision in my favor, nothing to pay?

      In that case, shall I admit guilty and ask for a waiver, or just insist the sign is not clear and the road condition is confusing, so do not admit guilty?

      • not necessarily. for section 10 ("waiver"), there are two outcomes

        section 10A - this still requires you to pay court costs
        section 10 1A - this doesn't

        • Does this mean in either case I may or may not pay the court costs?

        • +2

          yes

      • +2

        OP there is risk to go to court. I recently had similar experience like you, got $242 penalty notice served for parking at no stopping zone, due to the road sign was sabotaged. I appealed and failed. Planned to go to court to fight the case. I consulted legal aid and was advised that if the judge does not like my case the worst result I could be fined up to $2000 for the reason of wasting court time. I eventually gave up and paid the fine.

        The verdict is that we have bad government administration in Australia. They are in bad financial situation and desperately want to gauge people. So if you have time and are in the mood to fight them, I have my hat off to you. Otherwise you might want to play safe, pay the fine and take it as bad luck.

        I wish you all the best.

    • -1

      If you decide to go to court, most of the time if they feel they wont win, they will settle before the court date so they dont waste time.

  • +3

    Unfortunately it does look like a T junction. But I see why it is easy to be mislead into thinking it is not. Seems to me like a honest mistake.

    AFAIK, it doesnt cost anything to represent yourself in court. But I could be wrong, IANAL.

    Hope you win!

    • You.. ANAL? I don't think I should google that one

  • +3

    Isn't it said that ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law?

    • +4

      Ignorance of what then? I've double checked road signs around and there was no sign at all indicating road names or parking restriction. Unless the driver is required to check maps rather than some common sense?

      • +7

        You parked illegally. There doesn't have to be a sign.

        Just like there aren't any no parking signs in the middle of major intersections, yet parking is still not permitted. So, yeah, common sense.

        • +1

          Is it also illegal to park on the inner elbow of a continuous road? There will always be lines (give-way or stop), signs or traffic lights near the major intersections, and of course not parking in the middle of that is common sense.

        • +1

          @mily:

          inner elbow of a continuous road

          Whether you thought it was a elbow road or not doesn't matter. Like Pheonixx said…

          Isn't it said that ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law?

          Agreed that it is a tricky intersection/bend though.

        • @Ughhh:
          I got it. So there is little chance to win on the court I guess?

          Well by "win" I mean to plead guilty and get a fine waiver.

        • +2

          @mily: That would be my opinion.

          You could argue that it is not an intersection, but that argument would likely fail.

          Or you could argue that the fine should not apply because it's not obviously an intersection. Whether that argument succeeds could depend on the mood of the judge on the day.

          Still, I'm not a lawyer, what would I know?

        • +2

          @mily:

          Yeah. Why not?….

          I wouldn't have parked there either way myself, bit of a sketchy area parking on such a tight bend.

        • -1

          @Drew22:

          I didn't normally park there as well, as I said in the main post it feels like a dodgy place, although I saw people park in that spot almost every day.

          But honestly, I never thought it's illegal as it only looks like a dodgy place on ONE curving road, until one day I ran out of time before an exam.

        • +3

          @mily:
          Dodgy is how you spell that word. Dodge is http://youtu.be/18ASBsQfXnw

          There should be a clause in the law for exam sympathy.

        • @pinchies:
          Yeah, corrected. I made the mistake twice, in different forms, slap face!!

          No, that law won't help in my situation, I was there for invigilating, but almost late :(.

        • +2

          @mily:

          And those people probably got a ticket almost every day too, just like you.
          So it is likely they won't park there, someone else will and get ticketed, and the cycle starts over.

          The council should probably put a sign there but they wont as its making them money.

        • -1

          @Drew22:
          I think the same, this is a cow they can milk everyday, mostly from poor uni students like me.

          I might paint some no parking signs for the council on the ground in the night, when nobody sees me for illegal graffiti. And the council should pay me at least $242 for the job.

        • +1

          @mily: why waste everyones time going to court to plead guilty.
          Just write a heartfelt letter into SDRO and see if you can get it waived.

        • +1

          @whoopdeedoo:
          I was refused once, probably because my application wasn't too heartfelt, but do I have a second chance with SDRO?

        • @mily: if it was for a similar offense then most likely not. unless you had a really good reason.

          no harm in trying though.

  • +1

    Is it from the council or the university? If it is from the university, if you have reasonable excuses, they might let you go on that?
    I am not sure about the detail, but I've seen people making a fuss about it on facebook and how the student association got involved in it.

    i.e. my university now has a thing where if you have an exam and you couldn't physically move the car (and if the parking fine was issued by the university), you could appeal to the university on the basis of that (not sure about how it goes in detail as I don't own a car but that might be something to look into).

    • It's a formal penalty notice issued by local council, and my appeal got rejected by the sdro.

      • +1

        Perhaps talk to the student associations or something similar to that in your university for advice on what to do? They'd probably have someone studying laws or something like that, or even, someone who've been in similar situations as you are going through.

        Anyways, good luck. :S

    • Most universities act as councils and issue fines which are enforceable by the SDRO. The red restricted parking fine shown on the street view image is an example of this. The street is obviously outside this zone so the fine would be issued by the council which is just as enforceable.

      • I think you will find that universities can't issue fines.

        There have been test cases in Victoria that have made it clear that only a government can issue a fine. A university is not a government. Might act like, think they are one, but they aren't. They are subject to the same laws these days, including the Australian Consumer Law, so if your course isn't up to scratch you can take them to V/QCAT.

        Universities can have agreements with local councils to enforce parking on their campuses, however they need to have suitable signs at the entrances making it clear that this is the case.

  • +1

    Do let us know how it worked out. If it were me, I'd take it to court for $242. There is no signage. There are no markers on the road either. Is the council out to help the community or harass the community ? Write on their fb page and ask for a waiver to start with. If not, the ombudsman. Next step - courts.
    Are you sure 10 meters is the limit ? IIRC up here its 22 feet from a singalled(?) intersection.

    • +1

      It is 10 metres from intersection without trafic light, and 20 metres for intersection with lights, I'm positive on that. Feet are not used here, especially in laws I guess.

      • If your appeal got rejected by the sdro chances are a judge will also reject your appeal and thus costs will increase. Better pay small fine now and see it as lesson learnt.

        • Yeah I understand that, that's why I make this post, to get some ideas on my chance and possible costs.

        • +2

          Rubbish, the SDRO have a list of "excuses" which you can appeal under. One example is if your car breaks down. If your excuse is not listed the SDRO generally reject it. The magistrate would hopefully take all factors into consideration and act accordingly.

        • @mrjames:
          That list wouldn't be available anywhere would it?

  • +3

    Remember to pay for parking when you drive to Court :P

    • +6

      No, I always park in nearby residential streets for free and walk, unless there is another curly road like this. Have you forgot we are on OZB forum?

    • +6

      I had to go to court for speeding about 40 years ago, and I remember quite clearly even now that the judge said "Did you drive to court"?, to which I said no, and his response was "Good, because you won't be driving home".

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