Lane Filtering in NSW. Got Hit From Behind. Insurance Company Deemed I'm At Fault

Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 17:30
Last edited 20/11/2015 - 18:19 by 1 other user

Hi fellow riders and Ozbargainers,

I need your help and suggestion about lane filtering and changing lanes during a red light.

Accident Description:
All of the events described were during the red light (the light doesn't change to green or amber when the accident happened).

I am a full licensed rider in NSW, Sydney and was filtering the lane (my speed was less than 15 km/h) in the middle of 2 lanes and about to change the lane between 2 cars (turning left between the car in front and on my rear). I turned my signal on and when I was 1/4 way to change the lane, the car on my rear lightly accelerated and hit the back of my Vespa.

It was a small scratch on my Vespa and on the car (not a big accident), but the car owner lodged a claim. The insurance company deemed I was at fault, because I changed the lane "dangerously".

I am confident that I am not at fault, as the light was still red when I changed the lane (with a good buffer of approximately another 30 seconds before the light changed to green). I turned my signal on, and there was ample space between these cars, for me to change lanes. At the moment, the insurance company stated that I am responsible, but I reject this and want to appeal. Now the Debt Collection Agency is asking for the accident description and diagram about this.

What do you think guys? Any help or suggestion is appreciated.

Automotive Vespa

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Comments

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 17:33
      +3

      Yes, the light is still red when I change the lane and there is an ample space between these cars for me to change lane

      • Lunchtime on 24/11/2015 - 21:06

        if there was ample space - then why did you crash into the car?

        • Kittokid on 25/11/2015 - 06:40

          The car hit me when I was on his lane

    • Shwayne on 22/11/2015 - 00:25
      +21

      Yes, it's called lane filtering, and it is legal.

        • pitiek on 23/11/2015 - 11:44
          +2

          So you prefer to hit back by doing illegal action for something that is legal…?
          Not to mention dangerous and potentially can harm or kill another human being?

      • cameldownunder on 23/11/2015 - 15:45
        -5

        If there's a full line separating the lines, then it's not. And I think they put 50m of full line at intersections.

  • hayne on 20/11/2015 - 17:58
    +17

    Maybe I'm missing something but it's not clear to me how the light being red helps you? Are you saying that the car should not have edged forward (it sounds like that's what you mean by they accelerated lightly)? He has a right to edge forward if there is a large gap between him and the car in front of him.

    If you change into his lane while he's edging forward and an accident happens, you would be at fault. Just the same as if there was a car that changed into his lane while he was edging forward to close the gap.

    If there was a safe enough gap for you to come into his lane fully, you would be 100% in the lane and not 1/4 way into the lane. In that case, you have completely come into his lane and are now in front of his car and he contacts the rear of your bike. If that's the situation, he is at fault because you're not changing lanes at that point, you're in his lane.

    The way you've described it certainly sounds like you're at fault.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:09

      Hi Hayne,
      Thats right what you implied about the red light.. the space between the cars is about 1 metre and I changed to his lane when he was stopping.

      • tomclancy on 21/11/2015 - 14:02
        +7

        the space between the cars is about 1 metre and I changed to his lane when he was stopping.

        If you cut in front of a moving vehicle (you used the word 'stopping' not 'stopped') with only 1m gap, then absolutely this is 100% your fault

        EDIT: I've just read your other responses where you clarify he was completely stopped. It's a grey area then.

        • Kittokid on 22/11/2015 - 17:45

          PBG, he was completely stopped

    • Shwayne on 22/11/2015 - 00:25

      You can only lane filter at a red light or very slow traffic.

      • singlemalt72 on 24/11/2015 - 12:59
        +2

        No, you can continue to lane filter through a green light, as long as the traffic is stationary or moving slowly and you follow other road laws.

        • Shwayne on 24/11/2015 - 22:29
          +1

          See how I said: "or very slow traffic"?

  • inherentchoice on 20/11/2015 - 18:00

    Wait, so were you moving across the lane between two stopped or slow moving cars and the car hit you? Were the cars stopped or slow moving.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:04

      both cars were stopped

  • [Deactivated] on 20/11/2015 - 18:06

    So are you still pointing forwards, or squeezing sideways between cars? Were the other cars still moving or stopped?

    I got clipped lane filtering (before legal in Vic, so I was probably at fault), but lucky for me driver didnt care at all and drive off!

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:10

      Hi Swimfast,
      I am already perpendicular with the cars, other cars are still stopped as the red light is still red for another 30 seconds or so

      • [Deactivated] on 20/11/2015 - 18:14

        So hit back left of your bike? That's more than 1/4 through isn't it, as you are totally in front of his car? Where about was the scratch on his car?

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:21

          It was on his right front light as Vespa read body is bigger than the front body

        • [Deactivated] on 20/11/2015 - 19:08
          +1

          @Kittokid:

          I'm still not clear if he was stopped, or still stopping - you contradicted yourself in your responses.

          If say your only chance is if he was completely stopped, and he accelerated on purpose to try and block you.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:16
          -2

          @swimfast: Thanks.. Will put that into my thoughts when writing the accident description

        • ankor on 20/11/2015 - 20:35
          +2

          @Kittokid:

          Right front light- so the damage is to the front of his vehicle? Is the damage to the front of this light or to the side of that light?

          Was that driver even central in that lane?

          If you have already established yourself in that lane, he has rear ended you. If the damage is to the front of his right front light, I believe they will find it harder to pin liability on you.

          If you are not fully into his lane, you would be at fault for failing to give way to a vehicle already established in that lane. There are no ifs/buts here. Red light is irrelevant, he will still have right of way and that will dominate the he said she said arguments currently happening.

          A third option here-
          You have established yourself in the lane fully, and just as you have done so, the driver, who is not centrally positioned in the lane- he's got a hyundai i20 lol- accelerates forward and scrapes you with the side of his right front light. The damage will then support his version and your version of events, it could go either way, and depends on things like- whether the magistrate enjoyed the coffee he/she had that morning.

          The best thing you can do at this point is to lodge your own claim, or go to legal aid. What I said is not legal advice, I'm just trying to play forum detective with the word salad you gave us.

        • Kittokid on 22/11/2015 - 17:24

          @ankor: its to the front of his light not on the side

        • save my dollarydoos on 23/11/2015 - 20:41

          @ankor:

          Up voted for "word salad"

          Boston Legal fan too?

        • ankor on 23/11/2015 - 22:38

          @Themojorising:

          Actually I came up with it in that post. It seemed nicer than verbal diarrhoea..

        • MetalPhreak on 24/11/2015 - 05:09

          @Kittokid: Say nothing more than he rear-ended you at a red light - see you in court. Without evidence or witnesses the only thing they can do is deem the car driver at fault.

          Now I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong in this situation, but the above is how the game works…

  • indium on 20/11/2015 - 18:19
    +8

    Sounds like you tried to squeeze in between 2 cars stopped at the lights where there was a gap between them, due to the gap the rear driver decided to move his car slightly forward, at the same time you were not stopped and had indicated that you were going to move into that lane between the 2 cars and tried to do so.

    Not sure how you expected the car to see you had indicated when the car was initially in front of you and you were coming from behind. I don't know technical rules but it sounds like you would be at fault.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:24

      Hi Phew, fair enough
      My defence was that I was riding slow enough between the lanes (less than 15 kmh) when filtering the lane (I passed his car from his right hand side, and turned my signal on before I turned onto his lane.)

  • ozhunter on 20/11/2015 - 18:23
    +2

    I turned my signal on and when I was 1/4 way to change the lane, and then the car on my rear lightly accelerated and hit the back of my vespa

    So the car was completely at a stop then accelerated? As it sounds like in your other comments that the other car was still moving but was slowing down to a complete stop.

    Indicating doesn't automatically give you right of way to change lanes, you should of made sure it was safe first. It doesn't seem reasonable that the guy in the car would just hit the back of your vespa deliberately.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:26
      +1

      ozhunter.. the other cars were completely stopped.

      • ozhunter on 20/11/2015 - 18:37
        +2

        Oh, you said in your other comments that the other cars were stopping, as in slowly moving.

        It does seem like the other guy is at fault, but it either one could be at fault. If you were completely in the lane, I doubt he would have moved his car at all.

        It's possible he accelerated and you quickly tried to squeeze in the gap.

    • whoopdeedoo on 21/11/2015 - 14:42
      +3

      well he's riding a vespa so…..

  • whooah1979 on 20/11/2015 - 18:24
    +20

    it makes no difference. op changed lanes. op is at fault.
    http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104…

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:29
      -3

      whoaah1979, the thing is that the cars are completely stopped for the red light. The link that you provided are correct if the cars are moving even moving slowly, a grey area hence would like to know what people think about my accident

      • whooah1979 on 20/11/2015 - 18:34
        +13

        stopped or not stopped. you as a driver (rider) must give way when changing lanes. rider 101 is to anticipate what other motorists will do.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:36
          +1

          thanks for the feedback whooah1979, appreciate your comments

        • whooah1979 on 20/11/2015 - 18:45
          +17

          @Kittokid:

          please know that this isn't a personal attack. two of my clients has family members that ride. one got everything below their stomach (@ 60kh) crushed and the other one left behind a wife and children.

          just be careful out there.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:00
          +2

          @whooah1979: Thanks.. Lessons learnt, I am riding more carefully when doing this on the red light now. I stopped on the side, take a look at the driver and change the lane after he saw me.

        • Jackson on 23/11/2015 - 00:13
          -1

          There is one situation where I was under the impression you could edge in and have right of way, that's if traffic is stopped (including the car that hits you) and you edge in front, even if you aren't all the way through my understanding is people must give way to merging traffic.

        • whooah1979 on 23/11/2015 - 06:26

          @Jackson:

          if you aren't all the way through my understanding is people must give way to merging traffic.

          this applies if the line ends (reg 149).

        • Jackson on 23/11/2015 - 18:11

          @whooah1979: sorry mate not sure what you mean?

        • The General on 23/11/2015 - 23:04
          +1

          @Kittokid:
          Kittokid, this is how that scenario may sound from the drivers point of view if your above comment is correct.

          The driver, sitting patiently at the red light, waiting for it to turn green so he can hurray up and get home. A bike pulls up next to him, stops, looks at him. This suggests to that driver, that the rider may be planning to 'push in' in that safe, comfortable distance that he has left between him and the vehicle in front. Therefore he chooses to close that gab, so that the rider will then be forced to queue up at the lights like everybody else next time. Upon closing that gap, the rider has now failed to realise that the vehicle has started moving again, and then pulls in front of the car and fails to give way, resulting in the collision.

          I'm not anti-rider, but this is how some drivers behave. And unfortunately, this would make it your fault.

  • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 18:34
    +1

    So, cars were stopped, you're filtering through. Did you go to take your position infront of the car while the light was still red? or had it turned green by that stage.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:35

      the light is still red with approximately another 30 seconds before the light changed to green

      • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 18:38
        +3

        So why not go to the front of the line?

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:43

          Was not enough space to lane through the front line as there was 2 big cars, SUV and a Hilux

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 18:47

          @Kittokid:

          Okay, that was the one gripe I had with your story. From the sounds of it, this guy was 100% in the wrong. If I were to guess, I'd say he saw you coming up in the rearview mirror.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:53
          +3

          @outlander: Thanks for your support outlander. My own failure in writing a proper good detailed description to the Insurance Company led me to this trouble. I shall re-write the accident description and post it again for feedback

        • ozhunter on 20/11/2015 - 18:58
          +5

          @outlander:

          I'd say he saw you coming up in the rearview mirror.

          I doubt he would. If I'm stopped at a red light and already see there is a car behind me, I wouldn't be checking my rearview mirror.

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 18:59

          @Kittokid:

          What you really gotta emphasise to get people on your side is that he was at a standstill when you began your move to enter the lane. To cause any damage, he would have had to accelerate quite hard, it doesn't sound like a case of creeping forward. If it was me, I would have got quite upset with the gentlemen in question. Very upset..

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:03

          @outlander: There was no damage in the car, and only a small scratch on my vespa that I had already removed using polisher.

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 19:04
          +2

          @ozhunter:
          You should never take off from a standstill without assessing your surroundings. Thats a basic rule of the road

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:08

          @ozhunter: I saw him looking at his phone when I passed through his car, and apparently my stupidity that I took the risk to change the lane.

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 19:08

          @Kittokid:
          If there was no damage, then whats the claim for?
          Think back to the sounds of the day. What was the sound of the engine of the car when it hit you?

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:12

          @outlander: He might want to change his rear light hence the claim? I cant recall the sound of the engine, what I remember it wasn't revving that hard, its a Hyundai i20

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 19:16

          @Kittokid:

          Rear light? Think thats a typo

          Either way, sounds like a frivolous pursuit. Whats the damage in dollar terms?

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:17

          @outlander: Yep sorry, its the front light.. the claim was about 600 AUD

        • hayne on 20/11/2015 - 19:18
          +7

          @outlander: Yeah but the details of the story don't quite add up. He was "accelerating gently". So it doesn't sound like he accelerated hard. And OP is either in the lane or he's not. If he's 1/4 of the way in the lane, then he's still changing lanes and is at fault for hitting a car in the lane already.

          I'm fine with bikes lane filtering, if I see a motorbike coming, I'm the guy who will move my car over a bit to give the rider some space. But here there are so many inconsistencies with the story and the general description is so unclear that at the very least, I can understand why the insurance company found OP at fault.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:24

          @hayne: Thanks for your positive support on lane filtering. And really appreciate your comments and feedback on this.

        • hayne on 20/11/2015 - 19:31
          +1

          @Kittokid: I hope my comments don't come across as a bit harsh - just offering an honest opinion on whether it sounds like you're at fault from the facts you shared. Good luck.

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 19:33
          +5

          @hayne:

          Lets play through this in slow motion, shall we? The bike is travelling between cars at say 5-10km an hour. The rider turns his head to the left, sees the driver in his hyundai. At this point they are level, and the car is stationary. The rider flicks on his indicator, and begins his move into the left lane, to overtake the hyundai.

          Now, at this time, the driver is facing a wall of traffic and the light is red. He has no reason to move forward. And yet, he does, at a rate that is fast enough to break his innertia, and exceed the rate of speed of the (moving) bike enough that he rams into it and causes damage. Facing forward, a driver as a viewing point of what, 135 degrees? He would have seen the bike rider to his right overtake him and start moving infront of him. If he was creeping forward, he would have his foot hovering over the break pedal, and would have had plenty of time to stop.

          So what conclusions can we draw from this?

        • ozhunter on 20/11/2015 - 19:53

          @outlander:

          Agreed, but I doubt when someone is stopped at a red light, they would just accelerate without looking.

        • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:56

          @outlander: You just completely read my mind. That is exactly what I thought on that time

        • outlander on 20/11/2015 - 20:39

          @ozhunter:
          You wouldn't. I woudn't. But out there, there is someone. His name is douchebag-in-a-hyundai, and he just tried to kill our friend kittokid.

        • Jackson on 23/11/2015 - 00:17

          @Kittokid: if your description was anything like what you posted on this site it doesn't surprise me (no offence, it wasn't a great description)

  • ozhunter on 20/11/2015 - 18:51
    +7

    After the reading the comments, I'd say the OP is at fault.

    If someone is in front of you and indicates, it easy to see that they will be changing into your lane. As you were filtering through(you would have been behind the car in the same or next lane), though you had your indicator on, it seems unlikely it was on for a sufficient amount of time.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 18:57
      +2

      Thanks ozhunter,
      In the end whatever the result is, lessons learnt, ride more carefully next time. At least I am not giving up without a try

      • hashtagbargain on 21/11/2015 - 04:12

        Do you have 3rd party insurance?

      • Wally on 22/11/2015 - 16:28

        or fit GoPros front & rear of the Vespa ;-)

    • Jackson on 23/11/2015 - 00:21

      My take on it was if the bloke who eventually hits him comes to a stop, Then the bike cuts in and subsequently the car hits the accelerator to close a gap and hits him it could be the cars fault

  • boo hoo on 20/11/2015 - 19:33
    -4

    Kitto, of course the insurance company deems you to be at fault.
    If another vehicle hit you from behind, they are at fault for travelling to close or failing to give way to vehicle changing lane.
    Hit from behind is your best way to telling Insurance to !@#$ off.
    see how you go.

    • highdealer on 21/11/2015 - 07:15
      +3

      Travelling to close or failing to give way to vehicle changing lane.

      Where did you learn this rule?

      • mrham on 21/11/2015 - 17:06
        +4

        Mrs. Moneybags School for Entitled Mothers in SUV's.

      • boo hoo on 21/11/2015 - 19:52

        Sorry stand corrected. I missed the "you" failing, "while" changing best bet to go with hit from behind.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 21/11/2015 - 17:46
      +1

      @Boo hoo "failing to give way to vehicle changing lane"

      WTH, it's because so many people think it's their right of way to change lane that there are so many traffic jams and near misses. You do know the white lines on the road mean give way when crossing them, not that people should give way to you crossing them. It's this kind of fundamental lack of knowledge that causes so many issues on our roads.

      • boo hoo on 21/11/2015 - 19:49

        Sorry stand corrected. I missed the "you" failing, "while" changing best bet to go with hit from behind.

  • noob999 on 20/11/2015 - 19:35
    +13

    http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/motorcycl…

    Filtering through traffic does not mean changing lanes and squeezing between cars to get to the other side - and hence why the insurance company has said you were changing lanes dangerously

    I also ride and commute to the city… so I know what you were doing and you should have been more patient and waited. Some times you just cannot get to the front.

    I see it every day and one particular scooter rider is really dangerous when he does it.

    As a rider you should remember everything else on the road is out to kill you - you need to be a bit more pro-safe and patient.

    If you want more advice if you were in the right - report the incident to the police - it's a gamble you might get fined.

    • Kittokid on 20/11/2015 - 19:44
      +1

      Noob99, if you were in my position, will you go to the police and report?

      • noob999 on 20/11/2015 - 20:23
        +1

        I cannot give advice as I'm no lawyer.

        You should Report all accidents to police so that it is on record.
        With Insurance agencies, it is a he said she said problem and he got in first!
        By the looks of it they said you turned left into his lane while he was stopping and hit his car.

        Filtering is still a dangerous place to be caught in a traffic accident… most drivers have no Idea that filtering is legal.

        • pjetson on 20/11/2015 - 20:53
          +1

          most drivers have no Idea that filtering is legal.

          The OP wasn't filtering at the time of the incident, he was changing lanes. And, apparently (because he got hit) dangerously and into a space he couldn't fit.

        • ITveteran on 21/11/2015 - 05:19

          Police won't care. Their condition of intervention is human injury or vehicle unmovable.

          I have a feeling that the car driver might be purposely hitting op. A lot of drivers are haters against riders, even bicycle peddlers. However this is really a grey zone of situation. If the insurance company doesn't stand for you, you might better pay the fine, learn the lesson and return to your normal life.

        • mrham on 21/11/2015 - 09:24

          The police have better things to do than worry about scratches to mopeds.

        • noob999 on 21/11/2015 - 19:51

          @pjetson:

          Filtering through traffic does not mean changing lanes and squeezing between cars to get to the other side - and hence why the insurance company has said you were changing lanes dangerously

          so you did not read my first comment :(

        • noob999 on 21/11/2015 - 19:52

          @ITveteran:

          Police won't care. Their condition of intervention is human injury or vehicle unmovable.

          I did not say call the police out.. I said report incident to the police.

        • pjetson on 21/11/2015 - 21:09

          @noob999: I read your comment. You talked about filtering, when filtering has nothing to do with what happened.

          The OP was changing lanes, plain and simple. And dangerously, since he caused a collision.

        • noob999 on 21/11/2015 - 21:50

          @pjetson:

          read my first post

          Filtering through traffic does not mean changing lanes and squeezing between cars to get to the other side - and hence why the insurance company has said you were changing lanes dangerously

      • bargainslut on 21/11/2015 - 03:07
        +1

        I got taken from behind by a bigger vehicle before and I wasn't insured. Let me tell you Kittokid, the pain remains till this day.

        • McFly on 22/11/2015 - 01:47
          +1

          Still can't sit down?

        • bargainslut on 22/11/2015 - 17:48

          @McFly: Sometimes but the scars still remain….

    • Shwayne on 22/11/2015 - 00:29
      +1

      http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/motorcycl…

      See this video at 35 seconds, where the demonstration shows exactly what OP described, as the safe and correct thing to do.

      Then again at 1:15.

      • CLoSeR on 23/11/2015 - 11:37
        +1

        What we are not certain of is how safe the drop in between the cars was; sounds like there may not have been enough space.

  • ATangk on 20/11/2015 - 21:05
    +1

    He was looking at his phone, you say… If you didn't bring that up initially, don't expect the insurance company to believe you if you say it now. That's a really difficult claim to justify.

  • nomoneynoproblems on 20/11/2015 - 21:19
    +2

    My 2 cents. If he hit the rear of your vehicle square on, he's at fault and i would have flipped the shit. If you changed into his lane and he hit you on the side - this would indicate that you dived into his lane and fair cop that's your fault for not giving way but if he hit you on the back this means that;

    a) you were fully in his lane when this happened
    b) you had time to enter his lane and position your vehicle in such a manner that you were rear ended.
    c) All occurred in slow/stationary traffic no less!

    This is why i always ride with my actioncam.

    • Terra Australis on 21/11/2015 - 10:14
      +3

      Do you delete the actioncam footage when at fault? Just curious.

      • nomoneynoproblems on 21/11/2015 - 13:27
        +1

        Yep hide that shit! Never had to it thankfully. The amount of footage of stupid drivers though…..

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