Deceived by a Car Dealer

Lbargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:12

Hi ozbargainers,

Hope you can provide some input on this. Thanks in advance.

I live in Sydney and inspected a car at a Newcastle fringe dealer (thinking far distance dealers would hold good cars but now I am wrong) which I liked, Kms are in 240k ish and model is 2007. I liked it and went with my mate to buy it the next weekend. I let my mate to drive the new car, we then stopped at fuel station and moved on. Halfway to Sydney, called my mate to check how the car is and he said, MIL (Malfuction Indicator Light) and Battery lights are coming on the dashboard. By the time, it was already past 5 and dealer closed the yard. Very next morning, I smssed him the photo of the 2 lights on the dashboard. He said, I have purchased the warranty (had to purchase one as dealer can only provide warranty on vehicles which have done 160k KMs and under 10 years old which my car doesn't qualify for) and go through the process of elimination. In other words, he's saying fix problems on my own expense.

I took it to 2 different mechanics and scanned the car computer system and both scan results complaining about Alternator (cost about 600 for supply and fit), a few other bits and DPF Differential Pressure Sensor Invalid Signal. My warranty covers very low amounts on the parts that are coming faulty on the computer scan. Mechanics also said dashboard lights must have been cleared before I went for inspection and to buy the car. One of the mechanics also erased the codes from the system, I drove continuously for half n hr without any lights on the dashboard, later on started the car again, lights came back up which suggests dealer must have done something to the dashboard lights prior to dealing with me.

Dealer seems to take advantage of the distance from Sydney to Newcastle and doesn't want to put hands in it now. I am looking for a cheaper fix and I also lodged a fair trading complaint against the dealer.

Is the dealer at fault as he completely deceived me and has anyone faced the similar problem, what was the outcome?

Thanks a bunch fellas….

Automotive

Comments

  • Ss-ss on 11/03/2016 - 16:29
    +4

    Buying a car with 240,000 klm is a lottery. Dealers don't have to supply warranty with that many klmKs. I bet you got it a fair bit cheaper than similar cars with less klm.. You will probably have to use some of the money you saved for maintence. A new altinator isn't too drastic if it's just that..

    • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:33
      +1

      Yep, sounds like OP bought from a wholesale yard, rather than a full-fledged dealership. These are the trade-ins that the bigger companies don't want to deal with, especially with that sort of kms.

      OP, read the fine print on your warranty paperwork, that should have all your answers. I'm not sure why you'd pay for a warranty that wasn't complete bumper to bumper, that seems strange to me

      • [Deactivated] on 12/03/2016 - 11:45
        +1

        Bumper to Bumper warranty on a car that old? Good luck

    • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:33

      Thanks but the question here is hiding reality about the product. It's the alternator and the bunch of other codes coming up on the scan which the mechanic said would coast 1500.

      • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:42

        I gather you missed my comment, what's in the paperwork of the warranty you purchased? How much did the warranty actually cost?

        • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:44

          420 through which covers only 250 for Alternator. Mechanic says, are very shifty n shrude, out of a bunch of 50 claims, only 2 or 3 passed. what…..

        • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:46

          @cactusndates:

          $420 for how many years? Did you ask what the warranty covered at time of purchase?

          How much was the car btw?

  • tomleonhart on 11/03/2016 - 16:33

    Did you buy the car as is ?

    • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:34
      +1

      At that time, no light was coming up.

      • tomleonhart on 11/03/2016 - 16:35

        so you did buy the car as is ?

        • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:36
          +1

          Yes, bought the car when no issue and issues started after half n hr.

        • tomleonhart on 11/03/2016 - 16:37
          +6

          @cactusndates: you bought it as is. enough said.

        • [Deactivated] on 14/03/2016 - 16:51

          @tomleonhart: I think he has no idea what "as is" means/implies

  • SnoozeAndLose on 11/03/2016 - 16:36

    HOw much you are paying for the car and what is the make and model?

    • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:54

      Captiva 07 diesel

      • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:58
        +1

        Oh dear…

        I'm a Holden/Suzuki salesperson and I can tell you that was probably a bad idea buying that from a wholesaler.

        Captiva when it first came out had issues, which have been worked on since then, and now warranty claims are just about equal with Commodore (which is to say, a lot fewer issues than before!). It would appear you've bought one of the early ones, with high mileage.

        Oh dear.

        • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 17:01

          true…lesson learnt…the hard way….was looking for a decent diesel 7 seaters..

  • swapsey on 11/03/2016 - 16:37
    -1

    Technically the dealer did nothing wrong. Even if they cleared the warning lights on the dash. It is the responsibility of the buyer to have a vehicle inspection that will highlight these types of mechanical issues.

    It's a good story to caution other buyers of second hand cars. How many people would take the time to work out how to look at the onboard computer and the warning messages?

    My mechanic once showed me the wireless tablet they use to read through the computer system and warning messages. These same systems are used by vehicle inspection services so that they also know what alarms are being triggered.

    There's now a solution for amateurs like me, called "Automatic", which provides a dongle and app that works on smartphones. Check it out: https://www.automatic.com/home/

    • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:40
      -3

      Unless you're taking it off-site, no dealer is just going to allow you to plug anything into the Diagnostics port. Nor should any private seller, for that matter

      • swapsey on 11/03/2016 - 16:46
        +3

        If a dealer would not let you scan for errors then they are withholding information about the vehicle. There is no justification for them doing that.

        It's the equivalent of doing a virus scan on a second hand computer before buying.

        • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:48
          -2

          Except if you're plugging something in, you can also alter things… What's to say we know exactly what you're using and how you're using it?

          a virus scan on a second hand computer before buying.

          Or, pretending to run a scan from a USB drive, but actually uploading a virus…

        • swapsey on 11/03/2016 - 16:52
          +1

          Would you also stop a professional inspection service running the scan on the vehicle? They offer it as part of their inspection reports, so they must scan vehicles. Unless they don't inspect car dealer vehicles?

        • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 16:53

          @swapsey:

          professional

          And there's the difference. Big difference between RAC doing something and a customer plugging something in and using their smart phone.

          And if you can't see why there's a difference, maybe I should get the admin girls to service your car when it's in our workshop :)

        • swapsey on 11/03/2016 - 16:57

          lol

    • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 16:41

      Now I learnt it n cheap car scanners are also available on ebay, search for: "Universal AC600 LCD OBD2 CAN BUS Car Fault Diagnostic Scanner Code Reader GO"

      Cost only 20 bucks.

      But the question is, if the codes are cleared n u run the scan again, would it pick them up?

      • swapsey on 11/03/2016 - 16:45

        Not right away but it all depends on the programming of the system, how often it scans for errors and also whether there is a complete history that cannot be wiped. Maybe a mechanic can answer that question for us?

    • bargainisg8 on 11/03/2016 - 17:22

      That's exactly right, how many people would know that things have been done with the car until they run the scan?

    • [Deactivated] on 13/03/2016 - 14:29

      Didn't realise he has 240k KM on the car there is no warranty

  • pointless martyr on 11/03/2016 - 16:59
    +4

    Second hand car buyers should sign up for RAC and get them to do a complete check of the vehicle - it only costs like $100 - you can write this condition in the offer to purchase. dodgy sellers wont agree to this so the flag will be raised before any money changes hands.

    If you are buying privately, you can just make a verbal agreement - again, if the car is chopped, has stolen parts or just has faults they arent telling you about, they wont agree

  • voiletmay on 11/03/2016 - 17:38

    Oh gee. this has scared me.. buying a car from a wholesaler tomorrow… only RACQ checks in QLD are $320 each.. jeepers.

    My friend bought a car a few months ago, brakes failed and car got damaged. Was about to get it back but her insurance would not release the car back to her due to previous damage. They investigated and found it was a dodgy roadworthy.

    Really worried now.

    • spackbace on 11/03/2016 - 18:15

      What car, what year, what mileage?

    • bargainisg8 on 12/03/2016 - 11:14

      Would recommend to pass or spend 320 instead of spending more than that. My 2c.

    • windale on 12/03/2016 - 18:22

      In rgard to RACQ vehicle checks they have cheaper options that don't check the bodywork. Also cheaper if you are a member of RACQ ($265), perhaps you have a friend who is?

      I have used a service a few times now and it gives you some peace of mind :)

  • davidmwilliams on 12/03/2016 - 07:59
    +2

    Firstly, use this as an educational lesson: you never buy a second hand car without having an NRMA inspection or something similar. It is caveat emptor especially with over 200,000kms. I am not sure what you were expecting? Good and cheap simultaneously?

    Secondly, I see you say it is a Holden Captiva 2007 model. Well, let me tell you I had one of those - although petrol in my case - and I was so much happier once I changed to a Toyota Kluger.

    The Captiva I had was a company car, collected in June 2007 new.

    One day, maybe in 2008, an error light came up saying there was an engine fault. I took it to the local Holden dealer. They said they couldn't find a problem so they just cleared the error light. Ok …. So I took it away and kept driving and some time later the light came on again. Same story, the Holden service team said they couldn't find an issue and cleared the light. This could have happened a couple of times.

    After a while it was evident something was really wrong. The car just didn't have any power when I was taking off at a red light. Periodically when driving it would "miss a beat" and so on.

    I took it back to Holden who said they couldn't find the problem so they cleared an air filter or something like that. Problem continues. I returned. They faffed about. I can't remember now how many iterations of this I had. One time they called me super excited because they figured out the problem was the catalytic converter and they were going to replace it.

    I Googled catalytic converter and the first link I found said you know something is wrong with your catalytic converter if it doesn't take off properly at traffic lights, if it misses a beat, and so on - the exact symptoms I had reported so long ago.

    When I went to pick it up the Holden people were apologetic - they had been sure this was the problem and they replaced the catalytic converter but when driving it out to me the problem resurfaced. They said they would keep it and dig further.

    They'd had it for a week or more and I was using a hire car.

    Eventually I got so annoyed I phoned Holden directly - as in the car manufacturer, not the local dealer. I complained and they gave me a case number and asked if the Newcastle dealer - Newcastle City Holden by the way, no need to protect them - had spoken to their own engineers. I said I don't know what they've done. The Holden person said they would call Newcastle City Holden about my vehicle right away.

    No more than an hour later the dealer called me so excited - they didn't mention they'd had any call but I knew it had happened - telling me they had just discovered the Captiva has three catalytic converters. Seriously WTF were these guys Holden service people or just clowns?

    So this time they replaced the correct catalytic converter and the car worked ! The problem was repaired.

    Yet, the Holden engineers wanted to know why it happened. They said something was at fault and if not determined and repaired the problem would reoccur. They dug deeper and found a faulty O2 sensor. My guess is this is the thing that set the engine light off all that time ago. This was replaced, and the car worked fine afterwards and the problem was finally fixed. Holden also reimbursed my hire car usage.

    However it was all a bitter experience. This happened pretty much over at least nine months. Nine months of me cursing the car and hating the local Holden dealer. Although the problem was resolved in the end I never thought well of the car again and in 2010 changed over to a Kluger which I immediately felt was a better vehicle - it felt so much more robust and spacious and better built.

    Perhaps your car has a similar history of a truly inept dealer who allegedly is trained in the vehicle but can't even see it has three catalytic converters when the damn thing is lifted above their head, and whose attitude to fault finding is "can't see anything wrong, I will just clear the error and say job done."

    Let me be clear though - Holden themselves - the car manufacturer - were excellent and resolved the issue very quickly once I (not the useless dealer) called them. I also currently drive a Holden Commodore VY International and love it. Yet the Holden Captiva is a vehicle I will never ever want to see again.

  • Euphemistic on 12/03/2016 - 08:31

    Sorry to hear your problems. Might have been averted if you had done some internetting prior to purchase. 2nd hand Captivas are cheap for a reason, and that comes down to reliability.

    240,000km is getting long in the tooth for a car, but not for a reliable, well looked after one. Unfortunately with a dealer they often turf the log books unless they are immaculate and you also have no way of knowing what patch up job they've done to someone's trade in to quickly move it on.

    We had a 2007 diesel Captiva for a while, bought 2nd hand with around 50k on it. Was a good size for us, nice to drive etc. It had a fuel sender failure fixed under the expensive 2nd hand warranty, then we got rid of it after a couple of years when the AC control/display stared to randomly go off losing the AC controls. Had heard about the electrical reliability of the Captiva so we parted ways. It wasn't the only reason to get rid of it, the boot space was also too small when the back row was in use.

    In the last couple of months 3 friends with Captivas have had one with a failed AC, just before a summer holiday trip and had to wait for parts, one with a timing belt issue that meant it was losing power and $1500 and another that I spotted on the side of the road with the bonnet up (haven't seen them to ask what the issue was, but the car is going again)

  • chumlee on 12/03/2016 - 08:31

    OP you do have a civil claim but you will need to prove the dealer deliberately wiped the warning lights before your test drive which may not be easy. You are going to need a mechanic to put this in writing for you so you can use it in small claims court.

    • [Deactivated] on 13/03/2016 - 14:37

      Edit - didn't realise his car has so many KMs. No warranty.

  • Gershom on 12/03/2016 - 08:40

    Caveat Emptor my man.

    I'm appalled that you could suggest that a used car dealer might be deceptive. I've certainly never heard of that before.

  • TransportPosters on 12/03/2016 - 14:44

    To the OP, seems like you'll just have to fix the car.

    If you can, have a go at replacing the alternator yourself. I got a used one for $45 for a 2000 car from a wrecker and it took about two hours. I didn't have much experience doing this kind of thing and had to work it out from photos and info on the web, and studying how it was mounted and connected. Saved a lot of money and had a new understanding about how things work.

  • bargainisg8 on 13/03/2016 - 09:35

    Ok, took it to the mechanic again, scanned and the only code came up was

    P2453: Diesel particulate filter pressure sensor performance

    Mechanic said, have to show car to the audio electrician. Mil coming because of that. Read some blogs about the code, diff information.

    • How do you get the car revved up at more than 2500 rpms at stationary position so the temp can be increased to allow the soot or ash to burn?

    • Been driving on the freeway at more than 80 for more than 20 mins, no luck,

    • any suggestion to clear the code?

    Thanks.

    • derk on 13/03/2016 - 15:00

      Auto electrician?

      • bargainisg8 on 13/03/2016 - 22:58

        Yes, given the car sometimes has battery light on and off. Today, the car has airbag light also on but dpf light was off. May be some electric fault.?

    • Gershom on 14/03/2016 - 09:30

      How do you get the car revved up at more than 2500 rpms at stationary position so the temp can be increased to allow the soot or ash to burn?

      Press the accelerator?

  • BuuBox on 13/03/2016 - 13:00

    If the only error is the DPF, probably not a surprise given the car has likely been sitting around for a while and driven to move it or on short test drives only. Take it for a long drive on the freeway (try it in a lower gear to keep the revs up). The DPF may be faulty though (e.g. blocked from consistently using the wrong specification oil).

    If the car is genuinely faulty, talk to Fair Trading asap. Although the dealer guarantee is explicitly excluded for cars over 160,000kms, you may be able to rely on a remedy under Australian Consumer Law if the dealer described the car as in good working order. Worth spending the $47 NCAT fee anyhow.

    http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Motor_vehicl…
    http://www.ncat.nsw.gov.au/Pages/apply_to_ncat/apply_to_ncat…

    P.S. The Captiva is not a great secondhand buy, particularly a high kilometre diesel.

    • bargainisg8 on 14/03/2016 - 09:45

      Thanks BuuBox. Did a fair trading complaint, see how that goes.

  • [Deactivated] on 13/03/2016 - 14:35
    -1

    Sigh… I can't believe this has not been brought up yet.

    Buying any car from any dealership gives a 3 month warranty on the car where anything not deemed to be a consumable part is covered under warranty and must be fixed by the dealership.

    This is SEPARATE to any 3rd party or otherwise purchased additional warranty.

    Source: I worked for a car dealership
    Source 2: I have taken cars back to the dealer and they have had to fix any issues

    My advice would be - send an email to the dealership telling them you have a 3 month warranty on the car and that they must fix any issues with it.

    Tell them you are bringing the car back and that they will have to fix everything.

    If they refuse to accept you bringing the car back to them - immediately register a complaint to Fair Trading.

    It will take you 20 minutes to register your complaint and they will contact you maximum 1 week later to discuss the issue with you over the phone.

    They are very helpful and will side with you because the law is on your side.

    You will be able to also request that if you do have to take the car back to them that they will need to cover the costs for your travel to and from their dealership unless they allow you to have the car fixed locally and foot the bill.

    These are the things you should do and do not take any other advice above because it's all rubbish.

    • BuuBox on 13/03/2016 - 14:37

      The express statutory warranty you describe only applies to cars with under 160,000kms on the odometer.

      • [Deactivated] on 13/03/2016 - 14:39

        Ahh OPs car has too many KM…

        Disregard above post LOL!!!

        • spackbace on 13/03/2016 - 15:26

          Lol dork :P also the stat warranty is no way all inclusive anyway, even if it did get it ;) it excludes a lot more than you may seem to remember/think/know. By no means is it 'everything except consumables'

  • Elppa8 on 13/03/2016 - 23:38

    Believe it or not I have knew someone who believed the car was still running ok that "solved the problem" by removing the warning lamps or covered them with black tape.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/03/2016 - 16:58

      modernish cars should have a lamp "test" take place before the car is started. When you first switch on the cars all warning lights on the instrument panel should come up. Compare it with the user manual to make sure all lights are coming up.

  • ramshead on 14/03/2016 - 09:05

    @davidmwilliams
    "The car just didn't have any power when I was taking off at a red light"
    Perhaps the car was trying to tell you something…

    • davidmwilliams on 14/03/2016 - 13:31

      :) I meant to say "after a red light"

  • 1bug on 16/03/2016 - 22:21

    …he said, MIL (Malfuction Indicator Light) and Battery lights are coming on the dashboard.
    Yes, given the car sometimes has battery light on and off. Today, the car has airbag light also on but dpf light was off. May be some electric fault.?

    Have you had any problems starting the car? Is the car battery flat? If so, the flat battery could be triggering some of the other faults to light up. If the battery is flat, replace the battery.

    A friend recently bought a 4-year-old used car from a dealer. Two days after driving the car home, he had a flat battery and the car had to be started with a battery pack. A couple of days later, he was still having problems with the battery, but this time the console lit up with new faults including a Malfunction light, Traction off light, and the reversing camera failing to initialise. Strangely enough, the "low battery" warning did not light up.

    Anyway, he took the car back to the dealer. The dealer replaced the battery and reset the fault codes, and the car has been driving well since then with none of the previous faults recurring.

    • bargainisg8 on 17/03/2016 - 11:07

      Thanks for your input.

      No, haven't had a problem starting the car. Before the airbag light came up, had the MIL reset once again, was ok for a couple of days but came back again. Battery light comes after I put the key, wait for all the gloves to go off, MIL comes straight away and after 3 or 4 secs, battery light comes on. If I start the car in between all the gloves are off (apart from MIL), no battery light and it doesn't come on while driving.

      Where I am confused at is not sure as MIL and Battery light are due to mechanical issue or electrical issue, driven the car for over 500 Kms, including 250 kms on highway and mechanically I couldn't notice anything. Cars…..

  • bargainisg8 on 01/04/2016 - 15:30

    Thought to put an update:

    • Fair trading called the dealer today and dealer told them to have a look on the car.
    • Fair trading called me later telling what the dealer said,
    • I will have to take the car to the dealer, may have to drop it as he said it may take a day or week,
    • But Fair trading said, 'He can't get away with that',
    • My worst fear is I take the car there (Sydney to Newcastle), leave it for the existing issues to get fixed and dealer does something fishy out of grudge.

    Will keep you posted, how it goes.

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