Parking Fine: Would You Go to Court?

QW3RTY on 07/06/2017 - 09:00
Last edited 07/06/2017 - 09:56 by 1 other user

Morning everybody,

I know there are plenty of these threads on this site regarding parking fines and going to court, so I'll try and keep this one as short as I can.

I parked the zone pictured here (which is a parking zone on the Mosman Bay foreshore) and left my car for a period longer than 2 hours. On my car, I have a 7 Days Mosman Council Foreshore Parking Sticker, the details of which are summarised here.

After receiving a fine for "Parking continuously for longer than permitted", I appealed to the SDRO through the online process. After roughly five weeks (and two additional information requests), they responded to me noting the issuing authority (Mosman Council) had advised them that "the fine applies, as the Mosman Foreshore Parking Pass is not valid in the noted zone". The approved zones are specified on their website, but not in the parking policy.

My current point of contest is with the wording of the sign. I have enquired with Mosman Council to which passes are accepted in the area — i.e. what an "everyday permit" is. They have been unable to advise me over the past two weeks, and searching their website hasn't turned up any information specifically about everyday passes. What I did find on their website was that Residential Parking Permits are divided into Areas 1 to 15 — with the excepted parking pass number displayed on the sign for limited parking zones, as in this example here — which assists in clarifying which passes are permissible for exemption from the parking limit.

My case for contesting this fine in court is that the sign does not specify a particular parking pass, and I made somewhat reasonable assumption that a 7 Day Foreshore Parking Pass could be used at a parking zone adjacent to a foreshore in Mosman accepting Everyday Permits.

While I would normally look at the "approved parking areas" on the and admit defeat, I feel my case is only strengthened by Mosman Council being unable to provide information on what "Everyday Permits".

Finally, my employer offers "court leave", so I am able to take a paid day off to contest this matter if needed — which moots concerns about the money saved by having the fine waived ($110) coming at a cost of a days earnings.

So what would you do in this situation, OzBargain?

Poll Options

  • ?
    Go to court, spend a twelve hour period of your life arguing the wording of a parking sign.
  • ?
    Admit defeat, live rest of your life with thought that you could have won taking on a Council.
  • ?
    I don't care. Each day is but another step towards universal heat-death and the end of all things.
Automotive

Comments

  • k-rokfm on 07/06/2017 - 09:11

    Sure you could go to court as you will still get payed to do it, you dont really risk losing out - but i would say its 95% chance that it would still be upheld.

    If the signs have the permit zones which apply (im assuming one pass only correlated with one zone?) then a sign without a permit zone listed one would assume that there is no permit for that area.

    • QW3RTY on 07/06/2017 - 09:24

      Residents will be able to apply for a pass correlating to their zone only.

      This zone pictured makes reference to a permit which I haven't been able to obtain any information on. Council have not responded to my email after two weeks and whenever I call to enquire, they tell me a "council officer will call me as soon as practical".

      I know that councils don't exactly deal expeditiously, but surely after a month of enquiring, they should be able to provide some form of information.

      • k-rokfm on 07/06/2017 - 09:52

        Your first picture also doesnt work so if you can update that :)

        • QW3RTY on 07/06/2017 - 09:56

          Sorry about that — updated!

  • chumlee on 07/06/2017 - 09:38

    When you received your parking permit did it come with information about where it can be used?

    • QW3RTY on 07/06/2017 - 09:49

      The letter referred to "defined Foreshore parking areas". It did not list the areas, nor did it reference a parking policy or specify the list on the website.

  • MercSal on 07/06/2017 - 10:21
    +2

    The foreshore parking pass seems to spell out where you can park with it pretty clearly… Did you park in one of those areas?

    Foreshore Parking Areas
    Residents of Mosman may apply for a foreshore parking permit that enables a registered vehicle to park without paying a fee at the following foreshore reserve car parks:

    Clifton Gardens
    Balmoral South (adjacent to oval)
    Rosherville
    The Spit – East, West and Ellery Park
    The permit also allows parking in ticketed areas at Balmoral, The Spit, McLean Crescent adjacent Rosherville Reserve and Bradleys Head Road opposite Taronga Zoo for 3 hours per day (subject to obtaining and displaying a free 3 hour ticket on the vehicle dashboard).

  • stirlo on 07/06/2017 - 11:37
    +1

    I reckon you'd lose based on the webpage that lists where it's valid and the fact its not called an "everyday permit" regardless of the fact that no one can tell you what an everyday permit is. You might however "win" as the magistrate will let you off with some kind of warning even though you're technically in the wrong.

    I for one however could not live the rest of my life knowing I'd let the council walk all over me when I had a chance to beat them for once so I'd go to court and try your best! You get paid anyway :)

  • victorwilson on 07/06/2017 - 12:06
    +3

    My interpretation of the word "everyday" is that it's used in the context of stating that it's a "2P zone from 8am to 6pm everyday"; and in addition, "permit holders excepted" - as opposed to the existence of an "everyday permit". This is in contrast with a sign that may say "2P 8am-6pm Monday-Friday" for example.

    Edit: on Google Maps street view, head backwards towards the bus zone. There's another parking sign for the same parking area just behind where the Toyota Hiace is parked. This sign seems to separate the word "everyday" from "permit holders excepted".

    • tomsco on 07/06/2017 - 12:44
      +1

      That's Detective Victor Wilson.

  • geoffellis on 07/06/2017 - 12:30

    I can't tell if you actually believe the "Everyday Permit" - or if you're just trolling/trying to make a point about the sign clarity or something.

    "Everyday" applies to the restrictions listed on the sign. Sometimes they say Mon-Fri, sometimes they say Sat. Sometimes they say "Event Days". "Permit Holders Excepted" means people with an appropriate permit can park there.

    Now you say you have a foreshore parking pass that allows you to park on the foreshore. But you didn't park on the foreshore. You parked adjacent/beside the foreshore. Had you seen the same sign in a place farther away / not the foreshore or adjacent to the foreshore, would you have believed your pass applies?

    • QW3RTY on 07/06/2017 - 13:00

      I can't tell if you actually believe the "Everyday Permit" - or if you're just trolling/trying to make a point about the sign clarity or something.

      ;)

      "Permit Holders Excepted" means people with an appropriate permit can park there.

      My appeal to SDRO was along the lines of "The area I parked in did not clearly state which permit is permissible — unlike the majority of signs in Mosman." They referred it to Council, council responded with "Yeah, well it ain't your one." My written request for further information has been ignored and my two conversations with Council officers has resulted in "I don't actually know, I'll get somebody else to call you". The inability to provide simple information only makes me want to contest it further.

      Had you seen the same sign in a place farther away / not the foreshore or adjacent to the foreshore, would you have believed your pass applies?

      To be honest, I probably would have. I'd probably just be an arsey bastard and point them back to their vague parking policy where they neglect to define the foreshore or the approved parking areas, and would propose a Google definition of "the part of a shore between high- and low-water marks, or between the water and cultivated or developed land.

  • hashtagbargain on 07/06/2017 - 12:40
    +1

    Take the chance QW3RTY, go for the appeal! Worst case is you'll still have to pay for the ticket, but the best case would mean it gets waived off and hopefully, the council will learn its lesson and make the wording more explicit. I'm all for forcing a change to the system for the better.

  • mtfranklin on 08/06/2017 - 12:41

    Years ago I received a $185 parking fine in Sydney for parking the car till 2AM near Dawes point(paid parking till 10PM and becomes a no stopping zone at Midnight). Reason being drag racers converging in that area after midnight.

    I sent an appeal that they are unusual parking times and they should have made the signs more appropriate and me driving a family sedan should not be disadvantaged by a law meant for some illegal racers, they argued the fine still applies because the rules are for everybody.

    I signed for a court appeal and 10 days before the court appearance, the Sydney council backed off and waived my fine.

  • Oofy Doofy on 10/06/2017 - 16:22

    From my understanding, they make the rules to suit themselves and aren't required to provide evidence to defend a fine.

    I learned this the hard way with Brisbane City Council.

    I would still go to court and give it a shot. It just depends on how much you value your time.

  • GOFYS on 10/06/2017 - 18:25
    +1

    When dealing with councils, always adopt the Chewbacca Defence. None of them have a clue, but will spend weeks proving they are right about any irrelevancy you introduce. You will finish up paying anyway, so get your moneys worth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

  • MishyMoo on 17/06/2017 - 03:04

    I suggest getting some legal advice before deciding. There will be a free phone service you can access

  • pegaxs on 17/06/2017 - 09:29

    Take it to court. If you have a clear history of not getting tickets, then play that angle. It won't be 12 hours in court. It's in front of a magistrate and takes maybe an hour at most and that's mostly the waiting part. It's not a criminal trial, there won't be jury selection, you don't need a $4000/h hotshot lawyer. Just turn up with what facts you have and admit to parking there and telling them the reason why and give your side of the story… magistrates, from my experience, hate having to deal with single ticket cases against people with no repeat offender history and usually take it out on the prosecution.

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