Deals with (directly or indirectly) "religious" themed or related content (discussion)

MHLoppy on 11/05/2011 - 19:35
Last edited 11/05/2011 - 20:22

Hopefully this'll [which my dictionary says is not a word] be a constructive discussion (good) and not just a giant flamewar (bad)

Well I do know that scotty is a Christian and has posted limited time % off deals for koorong since the beginning of this site itself 1 and has posted a few since 2 so something related to religion/faith etc is allowed, but exactly is what I'm confused about. I'm not bagging the mods or anything, I don't have any complaints as to what has happened to "religiously affiliated" deals in the past, but there's this:

  • Posting a free Bible has been allowed in the past (albeit a LONG time ago) 3 and there were posts in the thread from both ozpete and scotty so it's not like it slipped past moderation.
  • (re-)Posting the same offer was moved to the forums 4 and the reason given was "its always free from this site. It belongs in the forums as per our rules." 5 It was not moved due to the actual thing being offered.
  • Posting of a free e-version of the Bible has been allowed 6 so it's not as though posts with direct religious/faith material is not allowed. 3 It even sparked some discussion which I found quite insightful :] Probably most helpful was by scotty himself 7
  • Posting of free material directly related to Islam was "Moved to forums for consistency sake [link]" 8 which then linked back to the thread of link 4, however as noted, that thread was moved to the forums because that Bible had always been free 5, so it did not fit the deal posting guidelines. 9 Moving it to the forums for consistency's sake would mean it was moved for the same reason as the "Free Bible kids" offer 4 which is all well and good if it was, but it looks more like and correct me if I've read this wrong, but it looks more like it was moved due to the material offered. (Otherwise I wouldn't feel the need for that specific link.)
  • Temporarily free material with Christian themes/Christian related has been allowed 10
  • People don't seem to like deals that have religious/faith related material and tend to show their distaste in threads where scotty has not posted. 11, 1, 2, 3, 6 And in link 11, where a church was giving free sausages at lunch time (where you could easily take the sausage and go without having a big talk about Jesus), there were a lot more negs than link 6 where a free e-Bible was offered (which is a slightly more religion/faith orientated than a sausage.) 12, 13, 14, 15, 16

Which leads me to ask what the official stance of OzBargain is for religion/faith based, themed or related content and perhaps if it could be included in an appropriate place of the wiki or something somewhere?

If somebody wants to start a constructive discussion about religion/faith itself, then I guess you could head over the off topic section. 17, 18 If somebody wants to start flamewar, then… 18, 19, 20, 21

Site Discussion

Comments

  • neil on 11/05/2011 - 19:57
    +5

    It's in moderator discussion at the moment but I'll give you my take:
    As time progresses, OzBargain gets more members. It brings all types of people here. Look at posts from the first year of this site. Polite, joking, and thanking people for posting. Look at today. Almost always people looking for fights, picking apart the smallest thing instead of focusing on the deal, and just plain rude. Not everyone but a growing number.

    Now combine the usual attitude with something potentially explosive like religion and chaos always ensues. So we as moderators, try to do the best with being consistent but if someone posts at midnight, and there is only 1 or 2 moderators on the site, then it becomes a nightmare. So, what I am saying is we can't have nice things, so from now on I think it's best we put religious texts in the forum.

    Your analysis is way too literal. There is no agenda to promote Christian or non-Christian or whatever deals. When events like the Quran deal happen, we (or I in this case) try to put out the fire as soon as possible and may be not consistent as we have to act fast.

    That's my quick thought on this.

    • MHLoppy on 11/05/2011 - 20:03
      +1

      Sorry if it came across that I thought OzBargain has any such agenda :S I sort of did the whole thing on the fly but noticed a few things as I went along so I probably didn't work/explain things as clearly as I might have otherwise. I was just thinking that (probably after discussion behind closed doors finishes up) that in maybe deal posting guidelines and maybe also when somebody submits a new deal to include a statement saying something about it. (e.g. "Posts that include religious content is allowed if it follows all other posting guidelines" or whatever you finally decide the official policy on it to be.

      I'm in no way trying to bag anybody, mods especially :] you guys do an awesome job.

    • ESEMCE on 12/05/2011 - 10:39
      +2

      Agreed Neil..
      The site has exploded in the past 2-3 years and as a result the rules have to change..
      When I first joined (and I was a lurker for a quite few months before signing on), there were 3-4 deals per day! Now there's 3-4 deals per hour, during daylight hours at least (I'm guesstimating..)!
      I think the mods have done a great job of enforcing the rules.. which have grown over time.
      I think the basic rule that if it's always been free and always will be free, it's a Forum item.. is a good rule to have. Back in the days where a post was a post and we were glad to have a new thing to read, such a rule wasn't necessary.
      If it's a limited time free offer or discount then it's a legit bargain.

      In the case of the recent Quran (Koran) post, it appears that it was always and will always be available for free and rightly belongs in the forums (it's a permanent link from the front page of the site listed as "Free Literature".
      The fact the OP added inflammatory comments about the Moderators says a lot more about the OP than it says about the Mods and the Mods dealt very well with those comments.

  • neil on 11/05/2011 - 20:06
    +3

    More to the point, if there is a ban on things with a religious theme, it creates a very difficult line to call.

    An example is Sanatarium, the makers of Weet-bix and lots of other products. It is run by the Seventh Day Adventist church. Now, if we ban music by a guy who happens to be Christian, do we ban Sanatarium products too? Does that mean the popular Coles/Woolworth posts not mention those products?

    So what's the solution then? Well, it's what we say for every deal and forum post. If you don't like it, ignore and move on. Mom (mum) said best, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.

    • grazer on 11/05/2011 - 20:20

      I suspect his music is Christian music, not just music by a Christian. This is nothing like Weetbix (SDA) or Pancake Parlour (Scientology?).

      Having said that, I think the time has come for giving us an option to opt-in/out of religious, adult, video games, etc, subjects.

      • ESEMCE on 12/05/2011 - 10:45
        +1

        Doesn't matter what the content.. if it's normally a pay-for item and it's now free (or discounted) for a limited time then it's a bargain.. If it's always been free and always will be free, it's just news that belongs in a Forum post.

        The Quran post linked to something that will always be free, it was moved to the forums.. end of story, move on..

  • Mikinoz on 11/05/2011 - 20:10
    -1

    To be fair lets have all religous and political posts in the forum only, i know its a bit carte blanche……

    • neil on 11/05/2011 - 20:18
      +1

      But where do you call it? One of my favourite T-shirts to wear is my Youth Day shirt which I got http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/5739. Political and religious organizations tend to give out the best freebies. Again with the example above, Sanitarium 'Try me for free' muesli rebate got 47 votes. So do we move that post to the forums? I don't claim to have the answers but I can predict a lot of arbitrary decision of what goes in the forum and what doesn't, which will not only take up lots of moderation time but will also make consistency more difficult to maintain.

      • Mikinoz on 11/05/2011 - 21:03

        Hmm okay that part does take a bit of scrutiny, maybe blatant as oppose to underlying?

  • andy19363 on 11/05/2011 - 21:19
    +8

    As I said in the other thread….. I don't see an issue….. focus on the deal itself, and it sorts itself out…. the guidelines are reasonably robust in that respect.
    Always free…. forums
    Newly free or temporarily free….. worth a deal post
    This applies whether it is religious books, pet food, condoms, etc etc

    As again previously mentioned in another thread, a problem also lies with the, (IMO), current dysfunctional negging system…. where trolls and axe grinders neg, and counter neg each other at will. Nothing attracts attention more than a big red square next to your name….

    • ESEMCE on 12/05/2011 - 10:47

      Seems common sense to me too..
      That's the problem with "common" sense though isn't it… it's not particularly common?

    • scotty on 12/05/2011 - 20:10
      +3

      current dysfunctional negging system?

      What do you propose? This has been discussed a zillion times now, and we have tested a few different solutions — just can't please everyone. I can make negging "cost". For example, 50cents to neg a deal and 20cents to neg a comment, all go into my retirement fund. That would solve the problem! :)

      • andy19363 on 12/05/2011 - 20:35

        As you say, you can't please everyone, (why Iadded the imo bit). Personally, I would either lose the negs altogether, and give a choice of positive, neutral, or report.
        That, or I would go back to the previous system where negs could be removed if inappropriate.
        As it stands, good deals are being lost to the community by the actions of a few.

  • scotty on 12/05/2011 - 20:44
    +3

    Well I am a bit late to the discussions here, but as I am directly mentioned by Mark in his post, I think I will need to make a stance here.

    First of all, Mark is correct and it's actually not hard to find out my proclamation of faith, if you google around. I have to say that I started blogging about bargains back in 2005 as I was helping out at a university student church, as most students have very limited budget.

    HOWEVER, "official stance of OzBargain" is that it is NOT a faith/religious based website, and it has never meant to be one. There are around 50-60 thousand visitors at OzBargain each day, and I am sure they are from belief system of all sorts. Meanwhile, OzBargain is about finding good deals in Australia. Want religious debates/discussions? There are other venues for them, but not at OzBargain.

    As Neil had mentioned, there is a discussion currently amongst the moderators. However for now a new rule would be implemented:

    • Religious text — freebies or not, dead tree format or digital — will be moved to the forums, and it includes free Bible, Quran, etc. They would not be posted in the deals section.

    And moderators will step in and close the discussions early if they get out of hands.

    • MHLoppy on 12/05/2011 - 22:16

      yessir salutes

    • TimeOrMoney on 14/12/2011 - 22:35

      Religious text — freebies or not, dead tree format or digital — will be moved to the forums, and it includes free Bible, Quran, etc. They would not be posted in the deals section.

      What about audio/visual material?
      An audiobook of a religious text? A CD collection of podcasts from a religious talk show? Music with religious overtones. A DVD depicting religious figures proselytising?

      • neil on 14/12/2011 - 23:41
        +1

        I suppose you are referring to the Hillsong deal.

        There can be a million examples of things with religious overtone and it's going to be hard judging every one.

        Collection of podcasts? Podcasts are generally free and have yet to see a podcast being posted.
        Audiobook of religous text? Well depending on the book, bible-> forums, da vinci code -> deal
        Music with religous overtones? Stay as a deal otherwise any association with a religon could be used to move to forum and we wouldn't have music as a deal at all.
        DVD? Da Vinci Code-> deal, A free dvd getting one to sign up to a church, synagogue, etc.-> probably forum

        I've mentioned this before. It's a slippery slope and it's not something that's black and white. E.G. Santarium products like Up & Go, Weet-bix are run by Seventh Day Adventists. Do we want to ban deals that are produced by religious organisations? Well then we'd have to ban Coles and Woolworth deals.

        People just need to ignore or block using hide from listing deals that don't interest them. More importantly, we should respect everyone's beliefs and opinions even if you think they are stupid. Users need to show more tolerance for differences between people otherwise. It really saddens me that we need to intervene in not only religious attacks but a lot of times ethnic/racial attacks.

    • windsurfer-sp on 15/12/2011 - 04:01
      +1

      1 in 17 iOS and Android devices have installed the YouVerison Bible App so to find out you could have the NIV for free was a big deal.

      I would be sad if deals this good are passed onto the forum purely because people chose to personally attack religion.

      I had a quick skim of the rules and none seemed to outlaw commenting due to a PERSONAL dislike of a deal. Is there a rule that would clearly make attacking a deal because you are of different religion, race or sexuality bannable? (Off-comment discussion is probably the closest to this, but I don't feel hits at the heart of the attacking nature.)

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join