Prices are going Down Down Down @ Tesla
With rebates in some states this makes a good enough car with good range specially that can go from 0-100 in 4.4 seconds if that's what tickles you. Me personally would not buy anything that's not LFP.
Please note this is not the Highland which is MY23.5
Model Y & 3 purchase: Referee gets 90 days Enhanced Autopilot. Referrer gets 5,000 credits. Referrer can also earn 100 credits if the referee takes a test drive.
Limit of up to 12 order referrals and 60 test drive referrals per calendar year.
Hopefully Eneloops.
take out eneloops
sell
profit
10,000 Boost sims wired in series.
Alot of something went wrongs
Both the LR and performance use NCA batterys as they need to keep the weight down. It is only the Standard RWD model that uses the LFP battery tech. on the LR and Perf 2170s I believe
Lithium iron phosphate LFP batteries are Highly Stable, have Long Lifespan, more resistant to heat degradation than nickel-cobalt NCA. Other big benefit of LFP batteries is generally cheaper (& to replace).
BYD, NIO, Geely Volvo/Zeekr & other Chinese EV leaders are much better value for money
Tesla have it right - BYD got it wrong. The LFP battery in the BYD seal performance scales back the performance of the vehicle as it doesn’t like being thrashed. This was confirmed in one of the car wow videos where the performance could only be sustained for a short period of time. There was also a study that found if the charge rate was kept between 20 and 70% the battery would last between 10-15 years
@reecho: Only in the RWD model out of GigaBerlin, so the above comment about performance still stands
@Wilson Wallace: What does "last"10-15 years mean though?.
Warranty might be the car only has to have 1km range left..and that's all it has for years 9 -15. Battery is still technically functional.
If it's over 80% capacity at 15 years…I'm happy with that.
@tunzafun001: Tesla battery warranty is that it will be >70% capacity at 8 years. In practise the batteries are holding up really well with only 10-12% degradation after 200,000 miles in the US and these are older tech batteries that are now superseded by the current ones
@colster6000: 8 years at 70% is ok, and most should hold that. Would prefer 75%>.
Would caution using US stats though. Quite often they are from LA, or colder and the avg temp topping out in the high 20's. Basically as good as it gets for Lithium longevity.
Aussie heat on the other hand (especially with the air cooled Leafs etc) …all bad.
But Tesla's cooling system has held up pretty well in comparison.
if the charge rate was kept between 20 and 70% the battery would last between 10-15 years
Same as mobile phone batteries
@TEER3X: It's not charge rate it's state of charge. If kept between 20 and 70% SOC then you will get max cycles. LiFePO4 are less energy dense than Li-ion but don't suffer from low temp thermal runaway.
@Wilson Wallace: Do you even know about this technology?
Charge rate is not % at all! Get the jargon right before you even pretending to understand it
@Wilson Wallace: What Wilson said about the BYD Seal Performance is accurate.
I've watched so many videos about the Seal now that I can't remember which one showed the car holding back on performance (think it was carexpert), basically because the battery couldn't handle it (so the software prevents you from pushing it).
I don't know or pretend to know the technicalities behind this, but the NCA seems to work better for "more range and performance in a smaller pack".
That's probably why Tesla keeps using them for LR/Perf versions.
I don't think that "being able to charge to 100% more often" is really that useful for the vast majority of people, unless you drive more than 400km every day or something like that.
I have a car with NCA and, in one year, have only charged to 100% a handful of times, before long road trips.
There are plenty of 10yo+ Model S around with their batteries at 95% or more capacity remaining.
………and LiFePO4 are less energy dense, but as everyone is become more risk adverse because of the possibility of thermal runaway safety has become a priority.
"BYD, NIO, Geely Volvo/Zeekr & other Chinese EV leaders are much better value for money"
Cheaper maybe but not better value.
LFP are fantastic, they love being fully charged (unlike the others which should be maxed out a 80%) and can probably handle twice as many cycles
but it's important to acknowledge that it's not all about the batteries, if they are managed poorly then they will not last
and thats the problem with all the chinese EVs you rattled off, battery management is poor, great hardware doesn't matter when you bundle it with crap software
and that is the competitive advantage of tesla, completely in a class of their own
Showing same price in SA for me.
Just skin, batteries extra.
isnt the 2024 'highland' model due soon?
Highland is the current model.
It's already out. Deliveries started in Jan 2024.
"Highland" was the Model 3 upgrade code name.
"Juniper" is the Model Y upgrade code name, expected sometime later this year.
Will wait for roadster refresh. Can't wait to ride on M1 terrific in west
recent reports from Tesla advise no Juniper this year
Current model 3 also have the indicator storks removed.
Also USS, gear stalk, advertised front bumper Camara, fog lights and UMC charger were removed. But they increased price 🤣
You've just listed the negatives though. I own the 2023 Model 3. My neighbour has a Highland Model 3. I drove the Highland and its a beautifully smooth and comfortable drive. Previous model is good, but Highland is next level.
A couple of things off the top of my head that Highland has that previous doesn't : ventilated seats, and also working matrix headlights (can keep high beam on even when there's oncoming traffic).
Loss of indicator stalks and touch screen gear shift are no big deal. Takes all of 30mins to get used to it. For the other major advantages of the car (entertainment, performance including regen and response, octovalve and system management, double glazing, improved suspension) one cannot go wrong. In my humble opinion lack of ultrasonics and front cam is a bigger deal. Highland is just enough to tempt many especially the fan boyz!
I saw a few 2 weeks ago on road in NSW.
BYD impacting on sales?
Highland coming through. Sell 'old models'.. Nothing to do with byd.
100% to do with losing their monopoly
100%? So not even 1% that they have a new model coming and they don't want sales figures to tank? Man I wish I could see the world in just black and white.
telsa can't manufacture enough
apart from the Y which is super efficient to manufacture and have been produced in massive quantities
model 3s tho, they are struggling to keep up with demand
as for old stock in qld - the aussie market is small, temporary excess stock in some localised region in australia doesn't tell you much
telsa can't manufacture enough
So if supply is outstripped by demand wouldn't we see the inverse i.e. price rises?
They never had a monopoly, so this is just dumb. EVs from Nissan, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and even Holden were in Australia before Tesla.
That's actually true, not sure why you're being downvoted.
Why would someone buy a 2023 old, superseded model without a decent discount. Of course they are discounting these runout stock.
I was super keen on a battery car, BYD was my preference. Decided to stick with buying petrol in the end. Can't deal with 20 min + charge times. It's a me problem obviously but petrol cars are still too good.
Yep, absolutely individual circumstances.
But for most people they don't drive 500km (i.e. 5hrs+) without a break all that regularly. Most EV drivers very, very rarely use public charging infrastructure.
But if you regularly have to drive Bris to Syd or whatever and just want to get there ASAP I can understand. Or if you only have street parking/no access to charging.
@scphotos: There’s also the size/cost factor.
EVs are generally larger models. I’m looking to upgrade my 20 year old Yaris commuter, and can find several petrol options in a similar size (a maximum of around 4m long so it doesn’t encroach into the workshop portion of my garage). These petrol options are also reasonably priced.
I’d love an EV, and can justify spending $10k or so extra on one. But I just can’t find one in a Yaris-sized form factor. Almost all seem to be 4.3m and up. The only exceptions are the electric Mini and 500e, but neither is particularly practical in their use of interior space, the range for both is sub-par, and they’re priced as “premium” options not commuter runabouts.
@axyh: Where are you located? In Qld (if you qualify for $6k rebate):
2024 Yaris is $28k drive away
2024 GWM Ora is $37k - $6k rebate to be $31k drive away
2024 BYD Dolphin is $40k - $6k to $34k drive away
Add in fuel savings and reduced servicing and you may come out ahead after a few years.
@scphotos: Good information. The MG4 is pretty small in size too. Same as Volvo EX30 - but is much pricier.
@scphotos: Thanks, those look like interesting options, but are just a bit on the large side when compared to my current Yaris and the petrol options I've been looking at. But they're getting close.
The GWM Ora and BYD Dolphin are 4.23m and 4.3m in length respectively. That's half a meter longer than my current Yaris, which is 3.75m in length.
I could go up to 4m or so without a problem, but any longer than that, and I'm probably going to have to lose the workbench and build a new workshop shed in the yard.
Or I could just buy a new petrol Yaris (3.95m), a Suzuki Swift (3.84m), or I might just manage a larger Polo (4.05m). There are definitely petrol options that make sense, but I'd love an EV option if I could get one. If anything, I'd have hoped that the lower complexity of the EV drivetrain would have allowed smaller commuter runabouts to be released.
For a commuter, I don't need a large car or a fancy one. It just needs to get me to work and back, and manage the occasional round-trip to head-office in Sydney (around 275km, which appears to be well within the range of modern EVs).
EDIT: The BYD Seagull is mentioned below, and ticks all the boxes. Here's hoping it ends up coming to Australia.
@scphotos: What a crock. These still need servicing, and you'll pay so much in tyres and filling it up you may not be much better off by the time the batteries crap out.
@Abaddon: The drivetrain does not servicing - there's literally nothing to service.
Tyres will probably wear about 5% faster than the equivalent ICE vehicle, due to extra weight. Perhaps more if you drive it like a loon.
Cost to fill up on electricity costs are far lower than petrol or diesel, and the price doesn't fluctuate much. Plus if you have solar panels, you can fill up for free.
Batteries are expected to last beyond 400,000km, so not really a concern.
@scphotos: anyone who buys a byd is going to get screwed
software is just as important as hardware, unfortunately they'll only figure this out when their battery dies in 5 years - and thats assuming you stick with the same tech
for EVs that switch the sodium tech they'll need to be cheaper than a 3rd of the price to be competitive as they'll last a 3rd of the cycles compared to conventional batteries and also have a massive drop in range and performance
while LPF can last 6x the cycles which imho is the best mass produced balanced battery tech right now: lower density/performance is made up with superior cycles, charging degradation when going to 100% and much better extreme weather
@desync: BYD controls end to end supply chain. They own the lithium mines. They are a battery company producing electric vehicles. Tesla is a better product. But Chinese learn fast and copy well. So how long before they come out in front… I give it 3 years. They also have a broader product range so can flex rapidly and upsell and down sell as required. Watch out BMW. Watch out Tesla. Bring it on.
@axyh: Not many new cars are under 4m these days.
I've got a similar problem, have a paved part of my back yard (my block has side access via an old "poo lane") that can only fit a sub-4m car (otherwise the bum sticks out and makes it hard to access the main car space).
Been looking closely at the gwm Ora myself, which is probably as small as a modern EV (aside from weird overpriced fringe options like the Fiat 500) is likely to get.
@axyh: If BYD Seagull (size of Yarris with internal space of Corolla) gets into Australia it will be much cheaper than Yaris - AU$18k in Thailand (AU$13-21K for the top of the range/latest Sodium battery in China).
It needs safety approval as in China most cars are smaller & safety is not that strict - less risk of accidents than crashing with monster 4WD or utes in AUS :( I hope I can get this small city car with fast charging & easy parking.
@axyh: Maybe investigate Great Wall. They have a model which would be about Yaris size, pretty limited range. I have a neighbour who works for them and drives this car. I don't know anything further, but might be an option.
@scphotos: CEO William Li, in marathon 14h livestream, showcased Nio ET7, 1000km journey with 3% power to spare (how many ICEs can go that far? ;)
EV batteries are improving all the time.
I'm waiting for the very cheap BYD Seagull with Sodium battery. City car the size of Yaris, much cheaper & inside space as Corolla, with power to run fridge or other appliances on vacation (or emergencies:)
Yep would be a pain if you had no home charging.
I initially had concerns but my 1 year EV experience has been a good one. I have home charging and don't do long journeys often (most of my daily commutes are under 1.5 hours). I charge at home 99% of the tiime and I charged for free with solar. 3 times a year I do road trips and I want a break after a +4 hour journey. The car is charged before I can finish my food that is more an inconvenience and a few seconds to plug in at my destination.
I would prefer never having to go to a petrol station again, but I'm happy to wait for better battery tech while I save up for a new car.
If it helps, it's pretty rare that need to use public chargers and wait 20+ minutes for a charge. Most people are charging at home 99% of the time, where you can just spend 15 seconds plugging in, walk away and the car is full for the next day's drive.
Of course, this assumes you can charge at home. If you can't, it's definitely more tricky at this stage.
EVs aren't for everyone - yet.
@klaw81: A lot of people live in small units or apartments, not everyone can afford a house.
:(
BOOST isnt fixing there something went wrong issue so cant get free moneys
I have a 2017 Renault Zoe, 4.08m. 4 door 5 seater. 40kWh battery good for ~300km.
You can pick up 2nd hand for <$20k. Awesome city car.
Downside is no DC fast charging and not many sold in Aus. upside is 22kW AC charging.
If you can charge at home you don't need to wait 20min. You just plug it in when you get home and unplug in the morning, there is no waiting. I only have to wait +20 once or twice a year when I have to travel +500km in one day. So for me on balance if add up all the 5-6min waits for filling up on petrol (and going in and paying) I actually waited LONGER to fill up my old Golf R (and it was slower even with a tune at 3.9sec 0-100).
@Maccadoodle: The bigger elephant in the room is the prospect of extreme depreciation of older ICE vehicles, when the inevitable economy of scale gets to the point where it's cheaper to buy an EV than the older, more complex ICE models.
Outside of collector cars, this will be a real problem in a few years when new AND used car buyers are all looking for EV's, and the used ICE car market drops like a lead balloon.
Have a look at the complexity of the design and engineering of an ICE vehicle, and this becomes clear. All the moving components, the volume taken up by the engine, gearbox, tailshaft - the vast amount of the volume and platform for these are not required in an EV. Hence no tunnel down the middle of the car, more leg room and storage in the trunk, frunk.
EV's cost around a fifth of the operating costs of an ICE vehicle. Even less if you have solar.
With proper care EV's should well outlast ICE vehicles. The electric motors and drivetrain are well over-engineered - There's a brilliant article about an Aussie Tesla owner, after 666 thousand KMs the battery was replaced under warranty, and still going well with the original motors. The brake pads did have to be replaced however - at 460 thousand KMs…
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/thedriven.io/2024/01/29/aust…
I have an ICE car in the garage, but it barely comes out now, which I am slightly guilty about, though
They’re just matching supply and demand, unlike the major manufacturers who are going to let tens of thousands of cars build up in stock before they realise they need to maybe roll back some of those opportunistic price increases.
Yep. Why pay more for a brand when you can just buy a better car for cheaper and not be associated with a twat.
Gotta love how <insert unrelated zealot political insult for another zealot we disagree with> get when someone disagrees with their politics so they jump through hoops to come up with reasons why everyone should hate that person
FTFY
Are you paying more for a brand though (this is coming from a BYD owner)?
The 2023 Model 3 LR is a really, really well priced car. Better than BYD. Not sure what else you can get that has similar range and performance.
You will find that a huge percentage of people have no idea how much a Tesla is. They just know that they are WAY more expensive than a petrol car, and the Chinese EVs are WAY cheaper. They don't need to check, they just KNOW.
@dtpearson: They maybe KNOW that Long Range is not essential for most & don't what to spend big on old tech.
With focus on WFH I will never waste more than ~$30k considering life is much more than having high liability car.
The future is shared/rented EVs.
@taki: If autonomous vehicles is a near future reality, then you might very well be right!
Most won't own a car if, and privatised public transport in the form of fleets of self driving cars will be the future
LFP and NMC both have their pros and cons.
Just because LFP is newer, doesn't mean it's superior in every way.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/ev-battery-types-explaine…
careful… don't go dropping truth bombs everywhere, you're bound to hurt someone's feelings!
I’m only waiting for LFP for a home battery.
Nah Sodium ion, less energy dense but much safer and not to mention affordable for your average household.
Yep. This is what I am waiting for.
Alpha ess use lfp for home batteries
they exist and have for a long time. don't search for LFP, search for lifepo4.
That is true, but NMC's main advantage is energy density.
Seal premium has close to the same range and uses LFP.
The newest LFP batteries really are incredible the CATL Shenxing battery will change everything 500kw charging, energy dense, cheap. They just need to ramp them up.
Careful. Even that article may not all be correct. Charging LFP to 100% and leaving it there without discharging it to below 70% is going to do as much harm to the calendar aging as charging an NMC to 100% and leaving it there. There's scientific papers on this.
LFP advantages are only good if you are a high milage driver. If not, LFPs degradation calendar aging will be similar to NMC. So with NMC better capacity, you can keep it below 80% for every day use and when going long distance, charge to 100% and go longer than what you can with LFP.
This is true for calendar aging, but LFP very roughly have twice the charge cycles of a NMC, so they are likely to outlive the car anyway. Even if you have 15% degradation at 15 years old vs 10%. They will both work fine as a vehicle, just one will have 5% less range.
I had a 7 year old Ford Transit lunch its engine at 130,000km (oil pump failure leading to major failure) and the cost of replacement was more than the van was worth, so its not like ICE vehicles all last a million km and 50 years either. If a Tesla had to be scrapped at 7 years old due to battery failure, it would be front page news.
Twice the charge cycles of LFP compared to NMC means nothing to an owner who drives less than 15000km per year. The calendar aging will be more significant and LFP cars charged and left at 100% for a long time will pay the price compared to an NMC car that is charge managed properly for battery longevity. I manage my LFP to be mostly between 40-70%.
I doubt that a lot of EVs will last more than 10 yrs without battery issues. Your Ford Transit lunching its engine is not a common event for ICE cars if you choose the right brand. It will be a problem for BEVs if a lot of batteries start failing after warranty runs out. I think this is possible looking at patterns of LiIon battery life in general. Time will tell.
MG Guy lining up to buy one right now
He recently posted a video declaring that since he wants to drive a car himself, self driving technology is pointless for everyone. I guess it's nice making such declarations and ignoring people who would love to have autonomy but cannot drive a car, like some elderly people, the legally blind, or otherwise disabled. Nope, they don't get self driving tech some time in the future because MGUY wants to drive his car.
Highland much better car. With that price people should also consider the BYD seal performance.
I mean, Seal Performance is $6k extra.
Also for Qlders, misses out on the rebate (Model 3 LR could be as much as $12k cheaper)
when you're paying around that much money $6k isn't that much for a much better car. The Seal is comparable to the Highland depending on preference. The older model 3 besides charging network is not in the same league as the Seal Performance.
These are Qld cars, so difference is $9k or $12k.
I mean, it's substantial for some people. But I do agree the BYD is nicer inside and out.
The BYD does come with servicing requirements to maintain warranty (with a very patchy warranty) also contributing to increased costs.
Don't get me wrong if the price was the same I'd get the Seal, but $9k is a nice holiday.
@scphotos: Not sure about QLD, here in VIC we got fk all incentives for a while now. If the price difference is that much in QLD then i would prob buy the M3 LR at this price. Nothing against Teslas this deal is a bargain.
![[QLD] Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD MY23 (Old Model, Less than 50km on Odometer) $63,570 + On-Road Cost @ Tesla](https://files.ozbargain.com.au/n/44/831844.jpg?h=c42c3a5e)
Site doesn't say what batteries are in these.
$68400 in SA