Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, Boeing 777, Reportedly Shot-down Near Russia-Ukraine Border

[Deactivated] on 18/07/2014 - 02:00
Last edited 23/07/2014 - 20:57 by 1 other user

Watching ABC News 24.
Just announced.

Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flight.
Appears to have been taken out by a surface-to-air missile.
Talk of 280 passengers and 15 crew dead.

Another big, sad, aviation story developing.
Follow live if equally interested / horrified.

Update: 298 people were on the flight, not 295.

28 Australians confirmed dead at this point, along with 192 Dutch, 23 from Malaysia, 11 Indonesians, 6 Britons, 4 Germans, 4 Belgians, 3 from the Philippines and 1 Canadian. A number still of unidentified nationality.

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Comments

    • Frantic on 19/07/2014 - 13:54

      You wouldn't believe what some people do to save a few bucks around here

  • LeChocolateMan on 19/07/2014 - 11:04
    -8

    I would encourage people to sue MAL . They seem to cut too many corners , and they would need to heavily investigate and present facts to the public to proove it wasn't their fault . Putting 300 odd lives at risk to save abit of fuel is simply disgusting .

    • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 11:19
      +1

      The plane was somewhat outside their original flightpath (for apparent weather reasons) but still in approved airspace.

      Yes, things overlayed maybe by poor individual country aviation and airline manager judgement, but the issue still ultimately goes beyond them and to the international aviation authorities. They will have to answer for their ill-determined flightplan approvals.

    • iCloud on 19/07/2014 - 12:18
      +9

      To prove it wasn't their fault? So what, do you think that MAS purposely supplied the rebels/separatists with the missiles to take their own plane down? They've already re-iterated multiple times that they were flying on a flight path approved by the ICAO. Ukranian airspace was closed up till 32,000 feet, and anything above that was perfectly legal and open. The flight plan originally filed was for 35,000 feet but the air traffic controller in Ukraine told the pilots to fly at 33,000 feet. It's also unusual for rebel-held weaponry to be able to shoot anything above 30,000 feet, and that's why they were able to fly through that region at that altitude, but obviously no-one had thought that some lunatic would have access to military-grade missile launching systems that can go beyond the typical range. Sure, MAS has some responsibility in the unfolding of this event, but to say that they're the major player at fault here is somewhat uncalled for, other airlines were also flying similar path (an Air India was approx 25 km from the plane's position when taken down and another Singapore Airlines flight was also nearby), do you expect their passengers to sue those airlines as well as they could as well have been the target of such an attack?

      • samboread on 19/07/2014 - 13:09

        Sure, it wasn't their fault nor are they responsible for what happened, no one could have predicted that they would be shot down in safe and legal airspace.
        but.. they are 100% completely liable for the deaths of 298 people who paid MAS to safely transport them. I feel for all the families and loved ones who have been affected by this accident. and I hope they get some justice.

        • noyesmaybeok on 19/07/2014 - 13:31
          +4

          Not sure if trolling or…?

          Sure, so if a truck crashes into a bus it's the bus companies fault for the passengers dying, righto :/

          While we're at it we should throw all teachers at Sandy Hook in jail for failing to keep students safe.

        • samboread on 19/07/2014 - 13:37
          +1

          @rochow:
          The Bus company could be legally liable, yes.
          Sandy Hook on the other hand, not the teachers but the school as a whole yes, liable. It is the school's responsibility to keep children safe, they did not keep to that, even though they did not do it themselves, they are still liable..
          Liable is different from responsible.

          Example. Your dog attacks another dog. you did not attack that dog, you may not have even been there when your dog attacked that dog. nor was it your fault, could have been a complete accident. You would still be legally liable for that injured dogs vet bills.

          And before you shut me down, go read about the the Montreal Convention..

          which part of it states

          "The liability of an air carrier (air transport undertaking) for damage sustained by a passenger or a passenger's baggage in the event of an accident cannot be subject to any financial limit defined by law, convention or contract.

          The carrier can be discharged of his liability only by proving that the damage was caused by the negligence of the injured or deceased passenger."

          This is International Law. which means it doesn't matter who was at fault or who is responsible. Unless it was the passengers fault, the airline is liable, for charges of upto 113,100 per passenger.

        • noyesmaybeok on 19/07/2014 - 14:05
          +3

          We'll agree to completely disagree. What next, if a tsunami wipes out a hotel it's the hotels fault so let's sue them? Come on… people need to just accept that bad things happen and it's often no-ones fault, and/or a big chain of events leading to an outcome, which could have changed course had any 1 event gone differently.

          Maybe it's just me who doesn't feel the need to sue absolutely anybody for everything that happens.

          More time figuring out who was involved, who supplied the weaponry, and punish them if possible (hard when there's a lot of collateral. Do we lose 1000 troops to kill the people who killed 300?) Anyway that's getting off topic.

          Your example isn't the same, it's YOUR dog. Same way your child to an extent is your responsibility.

        • hj0809 on 19/07/2014 - 19:27

          @rochow: This is why business liability insurance is important. Though more importantly it is hard to put a price on someone's life.

        • samboread on 19/07/2014 - 20:51

          @rochow:
          And you don't believe that in the same way it was MAS's plane and what happens to their plane is to an extent their responsibility?

          But yes. We can't agree on everything all the time :P it's just nice to banter every now and then.

        • noyesmaybeok on 19/07/2014 - 22:05
          +1

          @samboread:

          Here's an example. I rent out your holiday home. Some idiot comes and shoots everyone. You now need to compensate everyone? And your rental is in a complex of hundreds, it could have been any unit and just happened to be yours.

          The theatre that had the batman dark knight shooting is actually having that legal battle. Personally, I know I could walk into any restaurant, cinema etc and shoot it up easily. Imagine every business you go to having full on security like an airport because if someone did something in their premises, they'd be liable to compensate everyone. It's all a bit far fetched for my liking.

          Unlike Iran Air, I don't see anyone owning up and compensating families, so will be interesting if MAS gets the blame simply because they can't sue anyone else.

          IMO, Malaysia Air are victims as well. The amount of lost business, cost of the plane itself and so forth will be huge.
          And for sure re: compensation. Let's say a billionaire died, what do you pay to compensate that loss? What if it was a bunch if 80 years who were a few years from dying anyway?

        • phluffed on 20/07/2014 - 17:25

          US got $1.01 billion from Libya for Lockerbie. Iran got $62 million from US for IA655. Israel got modern equiv of $1.5 million from Bulgaria for downing a plane. Ukraine paid $16.5 million for Siberian Air shot down.
          Precedent is there, the country of origin is the one who will be slammed. If they can prove it was Russian supplied and Russian trained users, they will be the ones held to blame. Else, it'll be Ukraine who will need to come up with something in the region of $1b.

        • [Deactivated] on 21/07/2014 - 19:47
          +1

          @rochow:
          Your now talking about mother nature… If there was a weather warning then it would have been totally upto the customer… Mother nature is not human like the very man who shot down the plan..

      • raptormesh on 19/07/2014 - 19:26
        +2

        Indeed, an SQ(Singapore Airlines) flight was just 2-3 minutes behind. There is always so much knee jerk reaction after these tragedies that we could potentially power Tasmania if we harness it.

  • Frantic on 19/07/2014 - 13:49
    -7

    Should have anti missile systems like El AL

    What does it feel like to get blown out of the sky?

    • iCloud on 19/07/2014 - 14:46
      +8

      What has the world come to when civilian aircraft can't fly safely without anti-missile systems?

      • Frantic on 19/07/2014 - 15:27
        +1

        disturbing times indeed

    • Gnostikos on 20/07/2014 - 00:17
      +2

      Should have anti missile systems like El AL

      They're called Flares, bits of pyrotechnics that are designed only to fool infrared AA missiles, and they are far from a guaranteed get-out-of-a-SAM-attack ticket.

      El Al was put to the test only once in it's history against a SAM threat (and hardly a sophisticated one at that; a SAM designed in 1958); so we don't even know whether the flares would be effective against modern hardware and in differing climatic and altitude conditions.

      • Frantic on 20/07/2014 - 01:41
        +1

        thx, good info

        • tonyjzx on 20/07/2014 - 23:54

          there is no safeguard against radar guided missiles

          the SA-11 "Buk" is radar guided

          therefore this entire line of comments is useless

        • Gnostikos on 21/07/2014 - 13:48

          @tonyjzx:

          there is no safeguard against radar guided missiles

          Five seconds of Googling is what it would have taken for you to not look silly.

          Yes there are countermeasures for SARH (Semi-Active Radar Homing)/ARH (Active Radar Homing) missiles, namely:

          • Chaff (bits of ejected metal, glass fiber or plastic to give false radar returns).

          • Radars jammers (actively block enemy radar from tracking targets by saturating their frequency/wavelength with noise)

          • Radar decoys (miniaturized radar-emitting drones that appear as independent aircraft)

          • Stealth (either inherent in the aircraft geometry's or via radar-absorbing surface coatings)

          But that doesn't even begin to the touch the subtleties and complexity of modern electronic warfare and countermeasures.

          However, none of these things are practical for commercial airliners because their physical size, shape, radar cross-section and lack of maneuverability make them all-but impossible to conceal to military radar.

        • tonyjzx on 21/07/2014 - 15:29
          +1

          @Amar89:

          your last statement says it all

        • Gnostikos on 21/07/2014 - 16:24
          +1

          @tonyjzx: Yes but it's not because an aircraft the size of a Boeing 777 can't be made "stealthy".

          The Russian Tu-160 Bomber is the world's largest combat aircraft and has roughly the same wingspan, length and maximum take-off weight of a 777-200ER (MH17), yet it has a top speed of Mach 2, a greater range and a smaller radar cross-section than a B1 Lancer. There were even plans to make Tu-160s into commercial planes.

          Now you could design a commercial airliner with some radar-deflecting, low-observable characteristics and AA evasive capability but it would require such a radical departure from traditional jumbo jet design that it wouldn't be an airliner as we know it (far less seating capacity, cargo capacity, fuel storage, range, vastly different materials, etc.) and it obviously would not be profitable for manufacturers, airlines or consumers.

          Cargo/transport planes and combat planes really can't mix each other's forms and functions together very well; so while there are ways to actively mitigate SAM attacks for commercial airliners, the best idea is just to keep them out of harm's way in the first place.

  • scrimshaw on 19/07/2014 - 22:54
    +2

    Time for a news round up? Here's what you may have missed:

    Photos from Time.com of the crash site and it's victims
    Warning: Contains Disturbing Images — NSFL and NSFW content after this jump

    There are now reports that the people are looting the remains of the downed aircraft which may complicate forensic investigation.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/18/malaysia…
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/heartless-looters-raid…

    Transcript of two militants talking about the downed aircraft
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10281728/MH17-We-shot-it…
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-…

    Rebels are apparently not cooperating with the investigation
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-…
    OSCE responded to this by saying that their teams were not shot at however
    https://twitter.com/OSCE_SMM/status/490187980305616896

    Someone is editing and manipulating the Wiki entry on the MH17 incident
    http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/18/5917099/russia-spotted-edi…

    Aus to ban Putin from attending the G20 meeting
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24501491/aust-may-ban-putin-from…

    Joep Lange (AIDS researcher) confirmed to be on Mh17
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researc…

  • Mikaela on 20/07/2014 - 15:14
    +4

    It is just an utter tragedy. Couldn't believe it when I heard the news. My heart goes out to the relatives and friends of the deceased. I can't even begin to imagine what they are going through

    • JoyVee on 20/07/2014 - 18:19
      +1

      For those who are concerned that Malaysian Airlines might have been on an ill considered flight path, here are some figures from Straitman on Australian Frequent Flyer which demonstrate how many other airlines flew the same path including Aeroflot - the russian carrier.
      As shown below many flights by many airlines including US airlines. As average of approx one flight every 11.7 minutes.

      Aeroflot 86
      Singapore 75
      Ukraine Int 62
      Lufthansa 56
      Malaysia 48
      Belavia 46
      Thai 34
      Air India 33
      Pakistan Int 33
      Jet Airways 31
      Yamal 31
      Etihad 26
      Transaero 24
      KLM (Asia) 24
      Austrian 24
      Emirates 23
      Turkmenistan 17
      EVA 16
      Air Astana 15
      Uzbekistan 15
      Ural 14
      Azerbaijan 13
      Dniproavia 12
      Air Baltic 12
      Orenair 12
      Lufthansa Cargo 9
      Czech 8
      Deutsche Luftwaffe 7
      Private 6
      Rosslya 6
      Air Arabia 6
      FlyDubai 6
      Bangladesh 5
      Aegean 5
      VIM 5
      AetoLogic 5
      United 5
      FedEx 5

          860
    122.85 per day.
      • lplau on 21/07/2014 - 09:36
        -1

        I would say all the unrest with Malaysian Airlines would be because they lost a plane early this year, now they have got a plane shot down.

        What we always hear: Once a mistake, twice a coincidence, three times a pattern.
        Do you REALLY want to take the chance and make it 3 times a pattern?

        They lost a plane earlier this year, As you have displayed that 122 planes per day fly through that area, which means they have a 1 in 122 chance (0.82% Chance) of getting shot down, with such a low number they STILL get shot down.

        Its all just a numbers game and risk vs benefit analysis, do you REALLY want to risk it?
        It is just that peace of mind sorta thing, 2 incidents with the same airlines within such a short timespan always just makes people worry about flying with them.

        However as we are Ozbargain, look at the bright side, you may be able to get cheap airplane tickets via Malaysian Airlines. I also heard rumors that Air Aisa might buy into them, which means even cheaper tickets!

  • PaperplaneXXX on 21/07/2014 - 12:06

    There is another view on the tragedy, though…

    http://www.infowars.com/mh17-weathering-the-propaganda-fires…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY4W-8qNnD0&feature=share

    Its better to see the situation from many different views. Critical thinking sometimes could help…

    • Frantic on 21/07/2014 - 14:18
      +1

      Love that new Macadoo chick Jones hired.

      Still would take 'infowars' with a grain of salt.. more a case of 'throw enough of you-know-what at a wall and eventually it will stick'. By his clock all of the US should have been under martial law by now (not far off), Iran would be at war with US/Israel and would cause WW3, the dollar would be dead and we will all be trading NWO currency, etc. Many of his guests are somewhat questionable as well. Although he did open my eyes to a lot of stuff.. TSA etc but I refuse to believe my washing machine or toaster is spying on my.. yet.

  • Lord Fart Bucket on 22/07/2014 - 20:53

    And now some "positive" news. Dutch media are reporting that the train carrying the bodies has arrived in charkov, in Ukraine controlled area and that finally, all 298 will be brought to holland for identification.

    It's sad that this is now pretty much the best news out of it all.

  • lolmao on 23/07/2014 - 20:38
    +1

    I'm waiting for a Malaysia Airlines sale

  • Peteroz on 24/07/2014 - 02:54

    Right now there is lots of talking going about Russia… that they did it…

    Does anyone have a proof??? apart of the social media footage??????
    Just today in USA happened a secret briefing, it was a closed one., no public media were allowed. Everyone was hoping that they are going to show a real evidence or a proof from their satellite!!!!

    Guess what… the only information they could provide is the one from the social media like YouTube…. and their own opinion on the matter., Ooh and 2 pics of a Russian training camp near the border of Ukraine…. but that's it the rest it just thinking and hoping that Russians did the dirty job. I would say it just an American brainwash they are very good in that…

    Why the Ukrainian government did not release the official recordings of communication from the Air traffic control hub which happened with the airline and made it public???

    What I know that those recordings were seized just after the crash., what happened to those tapes you may guess yourself., if we did not hear them on You Tube until now, we will never hear them in the future.

    Right now everyone is watching You Tube only including the US secrete agencies……… (#_#) too bad., there are lots of creative people out there.

    Have a look at United States intelligence budget:
    and they still rely on youtube and twitter :)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_budg…

    Russian government still thinks that US has footage from its own satellite (in regards to the airplane crash), but they don't want to share with the rest of the world. We might get it from the wikileaks at some point in the future, but not from the US government. As it maybe not in their best interest to do so.

    Associated Press:
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-…

    If you are the one who beliefs whatever they tell you on TV, I may say you are the old school.

    And the statement about how Russians supplied weapons and trained those separatists is interesting and I believe in that myself., until we start talking about the American military invasion to other countries and how many people have died.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_milit…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpfCb3Hc_C0

    This is my personal view and I can be wrong., but I'm looking for real truth.

    Peace. Y

    • Gnostikos on 24/07/2014 - 18:24
      +1

      I'm looking for real truth.

      Here you go:
      http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html

      http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii…

      The first link is a synopsis of the who and why, which you can figure out faster than you can say 'cui bono' if you have a functioning pre-frontal cortex, and the second is a complete addendum of all MH17-related miscellanea; current anomalies, unanswered questions, loose ends and dirty secrets of the MH17 saga (lengthy yes, but it's a one-stop resource and really the only page you need to visit if you can't sift through the plethora of crap out there).

      My TL;DR:

      As in Syria, when Bashar Al-Assad was slapped with the almighty WMD-stick after "allegedly" using chemical weapons in Ghouta (now conclusively proven to be the work of the rent-a-mercs that are the FSA), conveniently of course just after he finished mopping up the floor with those Islamist whackjobs that the Western world has been covertly arming, training and funding for close to 3 years now to no avail…

      … the NATO/EU-backed Ukrainian puppet government has been losing the battle for Eastern Ukraine hand over fist and the only respite they've had from the more motivated, better organized Eastern separatists has been whenever a ceasefire was declared, an excuse they used to relaunch massive offensives against population centers. The downing of MH17 is a desperate act from which no one benefits but Kiev and the Western Globalists standing behind them; Russia looks guilty, the separatists who do not wish to be EU-indebted slaves like Greece now look like Al-Qaedaski, the lull in combat allows Kiev to re-consolidate its fragmenting forces to try and hold onto regions which are on the brink of flying Russian flags over their town halls and the US may just get it's dream come true: No Fly Zones. Which would spell game, set and match for the Ukrainian chapter.

      No Fly Zones are what toppled Libya, what they couldn't get in Syria (which saved Bashar Al-Assad's ass) and now with air travel over war zones deemed so detrimental to civilian airline traffic, they may just be able to instate a No Fly Zone over Ukraine, which in turn means US/EU naval assets in the Black Sea, which means a staging ground for assault on Russia.

      Make no mistake, Ukraine is a stepping stone for dealing with Russia once and for all; but for the time being, it is proving to be a difficult one due to Russian interference and a totally apathetic global audience to busy with the dreary doldrums of Pop Idol and 9-5 wage slavery to even locate Ukraine on a map.

      Nothing stirs up the working-class zombie's enthusiasm for a childish, good-versus-evil fable like a plane with babies and kids being blown out of the sky and the usual cartoonish morality tale that the MSM try to sell in the wake of the tragedy: Russia is the Third Reich reincarnated, Putin laughed so hard after MH17 crashed that vodka spewed from his nostrils, America has never downed a civilian airliner except Iran Air Flight 655 and TWA Flight 800 (don't ask questions), the Eastern Ukrainian separatists are Bolshevik deathsquads and Ukraine is important enough to warrant direct military intervention because more planes could fall out of the sky at a moment's notice.

      MH17 is what intelligences services pull off when they're playing double-or-nothing and the chips stack is all the way down.

      The brazen, callous, brutality of the broad-daylight murder of 298 souls is only surprising if you have no context or frame of reference to put things into perspective with.

      These are the folks you are dealing with in the Ukrainian government and its ragtag, US/UN/NATO-approved deathsqauds: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-odessa-massacre-was-a-caref…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJRnI-X8Q

      The people who on May 2nd, burned alive 50 people (injured some +200 more) in a Trade Union House in Odessa, Ukraine in a police-sanctioned (the fire brigade was a kilometre away but didn't intervene), government-controlled Right Sector protest that meticulously lured, cornered, trapped and then killed 50 innocent protestors in a doomed burning building (including a pregnant woman, the elderly and children), while pro-Maidan/Right Sector nutjobs stood outside drinking, laughing and having a good time. They then celebrated their handiwork in online trophy videos that resemble Jihadist beheading tapes on YouTube that were publicly praised by Ukrainian nationalists like Iryna Farion (last line of the public opinion section). The best part is that all of the dead were ethnic Ukrainians, no evil Russkies to be found among them.

      These Ultra-Nationalist/Fascistic elements of the Ukrainian government's henchmen are cut from the same cloth as the psychopaths that fill the ranks of the Free Syrian Army or ISIS (The Islamic State of Iraq & the Levant); there are no high-faluting illusions of political ideologies or some deeper, grassroots cause they're struggling for, they are going around like the hordes of Ghenghis and Attila, and having their way with whoever comes across their path. It's good sport for them and they're being given shiny Western toys and CIA-sponsored training to sharpen their skills with; no 18-year old, unemployed Ukrainian skinhead or 20-year old illiterate, son of an Arab goat-herder is going to turn down a job opportunity like that.

  • Dennis3003 on 05/01/2015 - 22:00

    A person from the Ukraine military has come-forth and said he was working that day and saw Su-25 taking off with air-to-air missiles and then returned without any.

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