Help with Child Care Advance

dragonfly090 on 24/02/2015 - 21:57

Hello OzB,

I recently was looking for a child care and finally found one which was offering 2 days child care.

I accepted the offer and decided to go to Child care the next day to finish the formalities.

On that day we were asked to put down a fee of $464 as advance which will be adjusted in last 3 weeks of payments.

  1. I was given the forms after the payment was done.
  2. There was no receipt issued for payment - I dint bother asking for one.
  3. I am yet to submit the forms.
  4. We said we need time to confirm the start date. Took the forms and left for day.

We knew the child care was about 5 kms away from home.

Next few days another child care called and said they have 4 days vacancy. We quickly accepted this and notified the other child care and confirmed to release the slot blocked. This is about 10 mins walk from home.

Problem starts there. The earlier child care is refusing to refund the amount of $464. They are sighting the fees is non refundable and referred their fees policy points (refer the below image)

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/okx6xd.jpg[/IMG]

I have said i am fine they hold back $100 as mentioned and return the rest. They are adamant of not returning the fees.

What do i do to get the money back? Please suggest.

I am seriously considering lodging a consumer affairs dispute. I need help to right links to help me win the case.

Payment was made using credit card. Does the chargeback help me in this?

Its a lot of money for me.

Financial

Comments

  • ozhunter on 24/02/2015 - 22:46

    The 3rd bullet point says it is non-refundable, though I must say it's still a lot.

    Edit: I think you're right in expecting them to return the fees paid less $100, as you have yet to submit the forms.

  • vikvance on 24/02/2015 - 23:09

    The way contracts normally work is that you're given a copy of the terms & conditions first, and then you accept the contract either verbally or in writing.

    So, did the Child Care centre give you a written copy of the fees policy or some sort of written contract before they took the $464? Or, otherwise did they verbally tell you that the amount would be non-refundable ? Or, was there even some sort of clear written notice in the child-care centre saying that the fees were non-refundable ?

    If none of this happened, and there was no way for you to know that the fees would be non-refundable before you made the payment, then you would have a strong case to recover the amount.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer & this isn't legal advice.

    • strangeloops66 on 25/02/2015 - 01:02
      +1

      The way you're protecting your arse, are you sure you're not a lawyer? ;)

    • [Deactivated] on 25/02/2015 - 10:33
      +2

      Of course just because it's in a contract doesn't mean it's legally enforceable. The fee needs to be fair & cover actual losses.

      I'd make the request for the refund in writing. Give them 21days to refund all but the $100. Then go to consumer affairs & see if it's them or some federal body which can assist.

      I'm not a legal-type person either. But many contracts contain unenforceable clauses which are often used to bully people.

      • Almost Banned on 25/02/2015 - 12:12

        ^ Bingo.
        If it is a standard form contract you may have a claim under the unfair contracts provisions but in any event contracts cannot impose penalties - they can only provide for recovery of legitimate costs and expenses.
        I have no way of knowing how easily they can refill those day-care slots so I have no idea whether keeping the deposit is fair but if it is not a reasonable recovery of their losses there is no way it is enforceable (even putting aside the 'ticket cases' issue above re: given conditions after deal is done).

  • GnarlyKnuckles on 24/02/2015 - 23:28

    One possibility that might end up being the easiest, is to ask them if you can have 1 day per week until the 'credit' ($464) is used up. I realise this may not be an option if you've committed yet more funds to the other place/locked in dates etc., I'm just throwing it out there as a suggestion.
    Of course it's more than these a-wipes deserve, they are pretty clearly being very opportunistic here (your offer of $100 was more than fair), but it might just end up being the best thing for you to do, all things considered (lowest stress/reasonable outcome/the place does not ultimately profit from their, well, profiteering-type tactics etc.).

  • RandomNinja on 24/02/2015 - 23:54
    +1

    It appears you've paid an advanced attendance fee to secure the placement. The T&Cs are pretty clear that if you change your mind you forfeit the amount paid.

    Parents changing their child care enrolments must happen often enough for this clause to be necessary. I guess from the centre's point of view, if the slot is not filled because someone changes their mind, they lose out until there is someone else to fill it as their overheads are unlikely to change.

    If you lodge a consumer affairs dispute, I feel you'll either get shut down or end up in mediation. You may be able to negotiate a partial refund during mediation, but considering the time wasted and potential stress you may be better off just walking away and enjoy the fact that your child is in a much more convenient centre.

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/02/2015 - 02:05
      +1

      I agree with absolutely everything you've said Ninja, 100%. You seem to have some knowledge of this area (I have none), so I am wondering what you think of their stance though, given that no decent childcare operation is anything less than full-booked weeks (if not months) in advance these days in Melbourne, and it has been that way for years. This mob seem to be essentially retaining the OP's ~$500 as an 'admin' fee; i.e. not to cover money lost due to child-care places that will now be left unfilled. It seems to me that they are keeping all the money (rather than the $100 offered by the OP) just because they're aware that legally, they can. And it also seems that possibly they are using somewhat underhand tactics re 'potential new clients' in terms of subtly manipulating them into handing over large non-refundable deposits, without said clients actually being fully aware that that is what they are doing?
      That's what it sounds like, in any case.

      • ozhunter on 25/02/2015 - 02:38
        +1

        And it also seems that possibly they are using somewhat underhand tactics re 'potential new clients' in terms of subtly manipulating them into handing over large non-refundable deposits, without said clients actually being fully aware that that is what they are doing?

        The OP accepted the offer and giving them money proved that he accepted it, even though he technically had not completed the forms. I agree somewhat that the OP isn't entitled to any money back, but as the situation is now, it is probably not worth pursuing.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/02/2015 - 03:06
          +1

          Yes agreed, it seems the OP is legally not entitled to any money back, unless they can prove misrepresentation of some kind; which I don't think they can. I also agree that for a bit under $500 it's not worth months/etc. of hassle and angst. But I do think it sounds suspiciously like this particular childcare place is subtly manipulating 'potential new recruits' into handing over large deposits, then ruthlessly retaining them in entirety, if there is a change of mind (regardless of whether they are actually out of pocket by anything even close to the amount retained, or not).

          So I think if the OP cannot reach an amicable agreement with them, then they should indeed consider lodging a complaint with consumer affairs (as they've suggested). Not with a realistic expectation of getting anything back, but more to put the CC place on notice; that they cannot keep acting with such a lack of integrity (fairly blatant profiteering, by the sounds of it), because it is now on the record that they're doing it. It will probably stop it happening to others. I'm guessing they 'accidentally' got away with it once or twice, then slowly worked it into their 'modus operandi'… who knows… If they did this similar thing to just 10 peeps per year (less than one every month), that's ~$5000. For nout, and all within the law/(unsupplied) contract.

          Just one last thing OP. If you do decide to "fight it all the way to the top", you will be able to attempt (via the FOI act or something akin to it) to acquire the records of all the 'nonrefundable deposits' they've retained from potential clients, without actually providing them with any childcare, in the last 2 years. I wonder what that figure would be? I wonder if they might suddenly offer you a 'settlement in confidentiality' (i.e. return your deposit in full, if you agree not to keep the whole thing confidential/drop your claim entirely) if you embarked down that route?

      • RandomNinja on 25/02/2015 - 10:02

        I went through the child care centre song and dance routine a year or so back and delved in to the T&C's of various centres. The T&C's of the centre above were pretty similar to what I saw.

        Agree that they are leveraging their 'change of mind insurance' to profit, if the slot is filled almost immediately. Seems legally permitted, but not so ethical.

        Scale aside, is it dissimilar to paying a non-refundable deposit to secure a property?

  • ozhunter on 24/02/2015 - 23:55
    +1

    You really shouldn't have given any money until you have submitted the forms, even if they asked.

  • Geewhizz on 25/02/2015 - 08:34

    If the places are in demand, can you not 'sell' your child's place at the original centre until the amount you paid is used up …..or gift it to a friend perhaps?

  • dragonfly090 on 04/03/2015 - 10:10

    Sorry fellas, had been away from site.

    Here is the update I have received last afternoon.

    Child care has finally agreed to pay back all except $100. Thats good news for me.

    What worked from a complete no no to holding only $100 are below

    1. clearly pointed point 1 and 2 which was a company policy violation by the employees themselves.
    2. requested for a formal complaint process to write/inform the Dept of Education and Training and Consumer Affairs.
    3. Politely inquired asking whom do I address the Freedom of Information request. Should it be the childcare or the owner of it. In which case I requested the owners details so I can write to him officially.
    4. Also requested the Child to teacher ratio where I said through Freedom of Information want to see total enrolled kids v/s total qualified carers.
    5. Politely communicated, If the refund is denied I would want to see the insurance coverage as required by the child care agencies. I also said I am happy to leave the kid there provided I am happy with the insurance coverage.

    All of this transpired over emails and finally the sweet news came by last afternoon on agreement to refund.

    Now, I feel something is murky and something is not right. Should I still press for information?

    I have agreed for refund in writing, does it still entitle me to seek above information?

    Thanks again for all the help and pointing me to right direction.

    Being new to the Oz land, this incident and information was an eye opener for me.

    Thanks

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