Entering driveway from across the road - who should give way?

Jabbajabba on 28/11/2015 - 15:25
Last edited 30/11/2015 - 16:01

An observation which always boggles me. This is the scenario:
- two way traffic, one lane in each direction
- no road lines
- slow moving traffic
- no keep clear markings on road

Two cars of interest: one car, let's say 'car-S' which intends to go straight past the driveway on its left. The other car, let's say 'car-T' which intends to turn right into the driveway from across the road.

Technically, from car-S point of view, car-T is on its right, so on slow moving traffic, car-S need to give way to car-T who is about to turn into the driveway. This is especially true when there is a keep clear sign, but note that in this scenario, there are no road markings so from car-S point of view, it is simply adhering onto its current traffic flow.

Now from car-T's perspective, it is about to cross incoming traffic and turn into the driveway, and car-S is on its right so my assumption is that car-T needs to wait for clear incoming traffic before turning. However, on slow traffic, you would expect that car-S would stop behind the driveway so that it is not blocking your way to the carpark (I.e. Behave as if there is a keep clear marking), because if it doesn't then it would mean that car-T will be blocking everyone behind it and get honked sooner or later.

In an ideal and peaceful society like some part of Sydney, car-S would give way, car -T would make its turn into the driveway and they will wave thanks and no worries at each other.

In the real world like some part of Sydney, conflicts will happen, car windows will be down and there will be shouting, F-bombs and middle fingers.

In unfortunate cases, there will be collision, people will get hurt and 000 will be called.

Now, emotions and feelings aside, forget about being nice. Based on thr laws you should abide to when you get behind the wheels, who should give way?

Advanced version:
Let these be the variables that you can use
- caucasian driver, male
- female driver, especially expensive SUV
- asian driver, male
- holden or ford
Apply the permutations above to car-S and car-T. See who should have the right of way, trololol

Automotive

Comments

  • nocure on 28/11/2015 - 15:33
    +5

    my assumption is that car-T needs to wait for clear incoming traffic before turning.

    Correct , and your scenario part of road isn't a busy one considering the lack of road markings.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 22:51
      +28

      Correct

      But OP's 2nd paragraph isn't and contradicts the 3rd. The road rules are designed so that, as far as I've come across them, one vehicle always has right of way, no ambiguities.

      In this case, S has right of way.

      A vehicle intending to turn into a driveway to the right of a road with no lines marked, should indicate right and keep to the left of the centre of the road, whilst leaving room to the left for traffic proceeding ahead to pass where possible. This vehicle must give way to all traffic on the opposite side of the road and only commence its turn when there is a safe gap in traffic.

      Whether or not the traffic is slow moving has no bearing on the road rules. As the driveway does not form an intersection with the road, the traffic on the opposite side has no obligation to keep clear. This is in contrast to a T-intersection where vehicles on the side of the road with the side-street must ensure that they do not queue across the intersection. This requires these vehicles to wait behind the intersection until there is space past the intersection for their vehicle before proceeding through it.

      In practice it is courteous for a vehicle in slow moving traffic to give way to a vehicle waiting on the opposite side of the road to turn across its path into a driveway. However the turning vehicle still does not have right of way and must confirm positively via a clear view that all traffic on the opposite side of the road has given way.

      • andyholloway on 30/11/2015 - 15:03

        well said, case closed!

      • ronnknee on 30/11/2015 - 15:07
        -1

        should indicate right and keep to the left of the centre of the road, whilst leaving room to the left for traffic proceeding ahead to pass where possible.

        You mean right of the centre of the road, right?

        • Scrooge McDuck on 30/11/2015 - 15:32
          +4

          No, we drive on the left side of the road in Australia.

          Which side do you drive on? O_O

        • ronnknee on 30/11/2015 - 16:49
          +2

          @Scrooge McDuck: Sorry, I was actually thinking of right centre of the lane.

        • WD TV andSOUND on 01/12/2015 - 10:33

          The current driver training rule, is you stay wholly in your lane and stick to the middle of your lane.
          But when I drive on the open road I will cut the corner while staying in my lane, most of the time, for smoother driving.

        • roofyapple on 01/12/2015 - 18:24

          @ronnknee:
          Me too, that's how I interpreted it! Hehe

      • txb on 30/11/2015 - 16:49
        -2

        In summary "you're not wrong, you're just an asshole"

      • Squidmcsproggen on 01/12/2015 - 18:24
        -2

        so true lol so true oops pissed myself

    • nikey2k27 on 01/12/2015 - 07:43
      +2

      Car T can go around block to get into his driveway.

  • indium on 28/11/2015 - 15:38
    +14

    You lost me there but i read over and understand now :P Car T always needs to wait for car S. Sometimes car S might stop and allow car T to turn. Car T needs to take extra care that eye contact or a wave has been made with Car S so it's clear they are allowed to turn and that no driver decides to come up on car S's left which would cause a collission.

  • ozhunter on 28/11/2015 - 16:21
    +8

    Car T needs to wait.

  • Randxyz123 on 28/11/2015 - 17:34
    +7

    Car T needs to wait it's turn. If car S is driving along in slow traffic, sees Car T waiting and can safely let them through then they can if they wish. They should do this if moving forward would mean blocking Car T's drive way. Car T still has to be extra careful and give way to anyone travelling straight. Even if it means blocking the road for a minute.

    if it doesn't then it would mean that car-T will be blocking everyone behind it and get honked sooner or later.

    Car T still has to wait. This happens to me all the time I wait to turn right into my street people get cross and honk and give me rude hand gestures because sometimes there are parked cars so they can't go around me. If I get honked I usually ignore them… I'm not gonna risk my life or someone else's and turn when it isn't safe just because you are in a rush.

    The person honking you is always in a chevvy badged holden as well. Occasionally it might be a falcon .

  • oscargamer on 28/11/2015 - 17:39

    Car T must wait until it is safe and clear (for all cars and peds) to cross the other carriageway and (probably) footpath into the driveway

  • moo on 28/11/2015 - 18:53
    +5

    This could be a good example of "picture paints a thousand words". You've lost me with all the text. Food for thought!

    • User167511 on 29/11/2015 - 12:05
      +4

      +1 very long-winded for such a simple situation.

  • minniethemoocher on 28/11/2015 - 19:00
    +9

    Car S is going straight ahead, car T is turning right. Car T must give way to oncoming traffic and wait.

  • NancyCat on 28/11/2015 - 19:19
    -1

    I've always thought the rule is 'Left before right'…i.e. the car turning left goes before car turning right.

    • onetwothreefour on 28/11/2015 - 19:22
      +1

      In this scenario there isn't a car turning left, it's going straight ahead.

    • oscargamer on 28/11/2015 - 19:38
      +3

      what about the car doing a u turn that also isn't in the OP's post ?

    • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 22:58

      I've always thought the rule is 'Left before right'…i.e. the car turning left goes before car turning right.

      That rule is redundant. A vehicle turning left into the same side-street is still on-coming traffic.

    • juki on 01/12/2015 - 16:50
      +1

      think of it as protecting your passenger, each time you "expose" your passenger you had to give way.

  • [Deactivated] on 28/11/2015 - 20:21
    +4

    What about the guy facebooking on his iPhone behind the guy waiting to turn right?

    • kickling on 29/11/2015 - 10:02
      +4

      What about the guy posting an awesome deal on ozB behind that guy?

      • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 23:01
        +2

        What about the guy fooling around with his gear stick behind both of them?

  • tomleonhart on 28/11/2015 - 21:08
    +4

    Vehicle turning must give way to vehicle going straight. Plain and simple.

    Unless the vehicle going straight has come to a complete stop and has clearly shown his/her intention to waive their right of way and let the vehicle turning go.

  • tebbybabes on 28/11/2015 - 22:51

    Now, emotions and feelings aside, forget about being nice. Based on thr laws you should abide to when you get behind the wheels, who should give way?

    Car T needs to give way for all the same reasons given above.

  • Geewhizz on 29/11/2015 - 06:38
    +30

    It frightens me to think you possibly have a license OP, that you think Car A has to give way to Car T in any situation.

    • Jabbajabba on 29/11/2015 - 09:16
      -2

      This, if OP was car-T ;) I was merely an observer. In fact at the scene, car-T was the one having windows down, yelling at car-S for not giving way, car-T is an expensive looking land cruiser driven by a dumb looking female.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 23:03
        +2

        This, if OP was car-T ;) I was merely an observer.

        No, this if OP has a license.

        In fact at the scene, car-T was the one having windows down, yelling at car-S for not giving way, car-T is an expensive looking land cruiser driven by a dumb looking female.

        What a dumb move. Car-S knows where Car-T is parked…

        • Jabbajabba on 29/11/2015 - 23:26
          -1

          Not sure if I follow whose move is dumb, S or T?

        • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 23:39
          +2

          @Jabbajabba:

          T. One shouldn't yell abuse from a vehicle, especially when one is about to park said vehicle.

      • smartazz104 on 30/11/2015 - 09:26
        +2

        car-T is an expensive looking land cruiser driven by a dumb looking female.

        Female Driver, "SUV"; all makes sense now. Did the driveway have gravel? At least her car would have been useful then.

        • Baysew on 01/12/2015 - 07:49

          Might have been up from the country or outback driving that sort of off road vehicle.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 23:08
      +1

      Drivers have to renew their licenses every 5 years, but can drive for 65 years without any knowledge or skills tests whatsoever. That needs to change.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/11/2015 - 08:27
    +2

    Any vehicle entering or exiting a side passage or driveway must give way to all traffic.

    • kickling on 29/11/2015 - 10:00

      Correct. If you're going to obstruct oncoming traffic then it is you who must give way. Kind of like when you are at an intersection with no give way signs. Pretty sure that was a learners licence question I actually got wrong (many years ago).

      Of course, I sometimes stop to let people turn in, so I'm probably adding/creating confusion in the real world too.

  • WD TV andSOUND on 29/11/2015 - 10:43
    +1

    The general road rules is quiet simple. If you cross the centre (Line) of the road, you give way and "indicate your intention" when crossing a line (lane) of traffic, through traffic should be given way to at all times.

    When turning (cutting through/impeding traffic, U-Turn etc) for any reason, you give way to other and through traffic regardless!!

    Other rules forgotten and ignored are:

    When EXITING a ROUND-A-BOUT you "LEFT indicate" when leaving, YES LEFT!!!! THATS THE LAW.

    "You don't leave you right indicator on all the way around", just because you are turning right, as someone might have only just seen you half way around as you are about to exit ("at this point you are exiting the roundabout left with a RIGHT indicator flashing, dumb!!!" as I said exit with a LEFT INDICATOR AS YOU ARE ACTUALY TURNING YOU WHEEL LEFT TO LEAVE), they are thinking you are about to cross their path (going further "RIGHT" around), then they have to unnecessarily pull up, STOP, for you to turn off without you crossing their path!!

    "I turn off my RIGHT indicator" as I enter the round-a-bout and simply indicate left as I leave.
    A Right indication is useless in Canberra with 10 exits in some round-a-bouts!!

    That's no harder to understand than that!!!!!

    In most countries its common curtsey to give way to traffic turning through a line of traffic (into a driveway, lane change, parking etc) if the traffic is traveling less then 10kph.

    If you are pulling out from the curb or doing a U-Turn you indicate your intention and when pulling in to a lane or a driveway you indicate. It is not just the law, its common curtsey!!

    A rule almost forgotten is to honk your horn when entering or exiting a blind alley or lane where you can't see the foot path or pedestrians crossing the entrance either side of you such as exiting a car park.

    Using your indicators is not sissy, IT'S THE LAW.
    Its just common curtsey that you give and expect the same back!

    • Hagla on 29/11/2015 - 23:50
      +2

      "I turn off my RIGHT indicator" as I enter the round-a-bout and simply indicate left as I leave.

      Turning off your indicator as you enter isn't a great idea if you are turning right. If you are going straight you don't need to indicate right to enter the roundabout so either way your method is incorrect. Having your indicator on tells other cars you intend to stay on the roundabout and helps to avoid confusion when making a right turn. It is also the correct method of indicating for a right turn, not just as you enter (yes you still indicate left to leave).

      Using your indicators is not sissy, IT'S THE LAW.

      Edit: Your whole post is riddled with errors and a lack of understanding.

      Here is a video to help you out: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=3Z45ClSysRQ

      It's a Qld road rules video but they are the same for roundabouts.

      • WD TV andSOUND on 01/12/2015 - 10:12

        Round-a-bouts that are on either side of Freeway exits, with 4 entries and 3 exits in my area constantly have cars come from my left turning right, that just don't turn off their right hand indicator and don't indicate left as they exit. So I sit there very annoyed giving way to car not crossing my path. SO WHEN do you turn OFF your RIGHT INDICATOR be for exiting a round about???? At the very least, when you USE YOUR LEFT INDICATOR that cancels your right indicator….SIMPLE!!!!

    • ronnknee on 30/11/2015 - 15:09
      -1

      When EXITING a ROUND-A-BOUT you "LEFT indicate" when leaving, YES LEFT!!!! THATS THE LAW.

      Nope, that has been revised a while ago. It is no longer necessary.

      • mjwills on 30/11/2015 - 15:36

        It is the law in NSW.

        http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/roun…

        "You must indicate a left turn just before your exit unless it is not practical to do so."

      • xsacha on 30/11/2015 - 16:39

        There's a state where you don't need to indicate off a turn? Geez, all the differing road rules for different states has got to be annoying. Especially if you cross a border frequently.

  • terrys on 29/11/2015 - 12:44

    Some people conflate with with the rule for intersections. You have a line of traffic stopped at a red light, and people will queue across intersecting roads blocking traffic from the left even when traffic is waiting to enter. It seems to be a "I was on the main road first so you will wait until I am past' mindset that about 8 out of ten drivers have in Adelaide :-( Pedestrian crossings come in for the same. I was a bit bemused to see one elderly lady queued across the South Road [St Marys] pedestrian crossing near the Bikini ironing shop - she herself looked about 3 months out from getting her own granny-cart, so karma may be coming to bite her bum quicker than she thinks…

    • Baysew on 01/12/2015 - 18:44

      Tell me more about the Bikini ironing shop.

      • terrys on 01/12/2015 - 18:54

        How else do you massage a bikini?

  • momov3 on 29/11/2015 - 18:55

    Turning traffic always give way to the one going straight although it would be nice if the one going straight manages to pick up on the fact you are signalling to go in, hence they are able to leave a clearway for you to enter. But this does not always happen. Still, you'd think that if the 1st or 2nd driver 'missed' your signal, the ones after should realise something and slow down to let you turn in. One reason never to buy a house on a busy main road.

  • bargainslut on 29/11/2015 - 22:16
    +1

    Car T obviously waits for the smallest window of opportunity and floors the living crap out of it. The number of times I'm late for work because of traffic and other nuisances just staggers me. The P on my car stands for priority.

  • Austin 316 on 29/11/2015 - 22:32
    +7

    Why was this even a question! This shouldn't be as complicated as painted here. Car T is simply turning right and should give way :)

  • Gnostikos on 29/11/2015 - 23:28
    +2

    This is the scenario:
    - two way traffic, one lane in each direction
    - no road lines
    - slow moving traffic
    - no keep clear markings on road

    Two cars of interest: one car, let's say 'car-S' which intends to go straight past the driveway on its left. The other car, let's say 'car-T' which intends to turn right into the driveway from across the road.

    I thought you were going to add:

    If Car-T is traveling at 10km/h, and Car-S has a drag coefficient of 0.9, then what colour shirt is the driver of Car-S wearing? Please show full working.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 29/11/2015 - 23:42
      +2

      Trick question!

      This happened in Sydney recently where it has been bloody hot: The driver of Car-S wasn't wearing a shirt.

      • Stphen on 01/12/2015 - 16:37
        +1

        Was she hot?

      • ITveteran on 01/12/2015 - 18:13

        Lol, is that an offence to the road rules?

    • frostman on 02/12/2015 - 09:53

      loll

  • ATangk on 29/11/2015 - 23:45

    Cars moving straight along a road always have right of way. (Dont take this to mean any roundabouts or other cases)
    If car S is, say looking for parking, then they may wave car T to complete their turn. However, in no circumstances should the turning car have right of way unless there is a give way/stop sign in front of the car S.

  • crentist on 30/11/2015 - 00:10
    +12

    how is this question even being asked?
    anyone who thinks they can turn into oncoming lanes should have died already

    • goraygo on 30/11/2015 - 06:54

      Exactly! This question shouldn't have been asked. It is general knowledge of all drivers who held an Australian license.

      Ops definitely don't have a license or shouldn't have one for even asking this question!

  • Jabbajabba on 30/11/2015 - 08:22

    This question is asked because it happened recently and it boggles me why car-T even had car windows down and yell abuse making a big scene.

    • tomleonhart on 30/11/2015 - 08:57

      Don't let it boggles you. People are jerk on the road and there's no explanation as to why they do something that they do.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 30/11/2015 - 09:13
        +1

        there's no explanation

        Drugs!

        • BhanuL on 30/11/2015 - 09:35
          +3

          mostly road rage has little to do with the on road scenario - its an outlet for other emotional issues for the driver. some small incident is often enough to trigger a huge emotional response that had been welling up inside that person.

    • Aneurism on 30/11/2015 - 13:24
      +1

      As you can tell people can also be jerks online when they don't need to be either. People will potentially behave eratically regardless of situation. Sometimes it is a matter of thinking they are right. Sometimes it's entitlement. Other times it might be situational or other personal factors that affect emotions such as breakups, being late, being in a hurry or drugs/alcohol. Worst case scenario is that it is due to personality flaws.

      When on the road even if you do the right thing one always has to be on the lookout and act to avoid danger situations. Being dead because of someone else's mistake doesn't really help a person even if they are in the right .

      • BhanuL on 02/12/2015 - 10:58

        Yes and no point getting worked up unnecessarily and developing an aneurism eh?

    • [Deactivated] on 30/11/2015 - 14:37
      -1

      Did you block them? I am reading the clues in your text and it seems to me like the traffic was at a standstill or crawling. You were not paying attention and blocked them.

      • Jabbajabba on 30/11/2015 - 15:30
        -5

        Then if you have read my texts properly, you would have known that I was an observer, not driver of either cars in the scenario. While it is true that I am biased towards car-S having the right of way and the female SUV driver is just dumb yelling at people for her own mistake, at the same time car-T was also partly instigated the conflict because all of this should not even have happened if it took note of the signal and was kind enough to give way.

        I'm now tempted to relax the constraints a bit and throw in some emotion, race, appearance and gender variables and see how different people's answers can be ;) let it be lil social experiment shall we?

    • xsacha on 30/11/2015 - 16:40
      +1

      Well it is pretty obvious car-T is in the wrong. Question didn't need to be asked. Could have just asked why is there so many crazy drivers and how did they get their license?

  • Lucky13 on 30/11/2015 - 23:32

    Car T has to give way

    Edit: Oh wait theyre asian, now that changes things… (wtf)

    • Lucky13 on 01/12/2015 - 18:30
      +1

      To my neg voter, I hope u realise I was paying out on the fact that wtf did them being asian have anything to do with it, just saying :/

  • WD TV andSOUND on 01/12/2015 - 10:21

    Ever heard of not impeding a line of traffic. You give way, that means you wait for a gap in traffic or someone gracious enough to stop and let you through and give them a wave of thanks, it's just courtesy. It's a TWO-WAY Street as they say, give & expect the same.
    Give abuse and expect the same.

    Regards

  • booerns on 01/12/2015 - 11:51
    +1

    The OP is definitely the Commodore driver in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD4w9G-it_4

  • ITveteran on 01/12/2015 - 18:09

    Op, what is your driving license no? We want to report you to get re-tested for qualification. Lol.

  • azshade on 01/12/2015 - 19:22

    Car T must wait until a break in traffic.

    Flow of traffic from S direction, if the drivers are not complete muppets, will see your blinker and if it's come to a damn near standstill will let you scoot in front of them. Technically they don't have to but they should to not be muppets.

    Just be REALLY careful if you do that on 2 lane roads however. I've seen so many dash cam videos where car 1 has been "nice" to let someone turn in, and a second car in the outside lane hasn't been and suddenly it's a major crash. Need to visually eyeball all drivers of all lanes of traffic and, if they have stopped to let you in, give them a wave for being good sports.

    Edit:

    Another tip. I had a friend who lived on a pretty major road in this situation. They eventually changed their route home from work and came in from the other direction. Rather than trying to cut across the traffic, they came with the flow of traffic and could just put on their blinker and pull into the driveway.

    It's a really good idea if it's a busy road.

  • frostman on 02/12/2015 - 09:40

    Why the hell do people come here asking for road regulations and policies when they're openly available from the source; RMS

    Chances are, 90% of the people responding to your query will have whipped up Google and typed in your question in one way or another. Do the research yourself

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