Questions About Paying Tax On a Quarterly Basis :(

Hi all,

Last financial year (2014-2015) I made ~$60k from my 9 to 5 job and ~$40k from my side business, so about $100k total. This was the first year I have ever made this much money and also the first year my side business was this successful.

I did my tax return with my accountant and I need to pay about $8k in tax which I have done.

I recently received a letter in the mail stating that I now need to pay tax on a quarterly basis (PAYG). The following information was given in the letter:

  • Notional tax = ~$8k
  • Installment rate = 20%
  • Quarterly installment amount ~$2k

So I'm assuming this estimated figure of $8k is the tax I need to pay for the 2015-2016 financial year? Even though I or the ATO don't know how much I made this financial year?

I am having a bit of trouble understanding this though.

  • Why am I required to pay on a quarterly basis now?

  • How did they determine the figure of $8k? Is the ATO assuming I will earn $100k again this year and therefore my tax will be around $8k again?

  • What if this isn't the case, what if I only make say $60k this financial year total for example, why do I still have to pay the $8k they determined? Will I get this money back in future tax returns?

Hopefully this all made sense! I am very new to all this and its very overwhelming!

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Comments

  • +25

    Since you have already established you have an accountant, I suggest you ask them and make them earn their money. If you are a sole trader you need to pay GST quarterly.

    • +8

      +1 for accountant, that's what they're for.

      Below a certain threshold though, sole traders can do returns annually.

      • +1

        Thanks guys, yes I will call him tomorrow.

    • +2

      a sole trader you need to pay GST quarterly.

      i don't see why op should even pay gst, let alone be registered for gst. op's revenue is about ~53% of the threshold.

      ~$40k from my side business

      • +6

        It depends on turnover not Profit. If OP takes in $400k to make that $40 then 100% they should be paying GST. Only hobbies are exempt from GST up to a certain limit.

  • +4

    ask you accountant, now

    you only need to pay GST if the business earns over $75k (i think) and of course if you have to pay GST, you bill your customers for GST

    • +2

      Even though charging GST is optional below the threshold, my accountant advised to charge it anyway. It confuses clients less for one thing.

      • That reminds me, I also received a Installment Activity Statement for 1st Jan to 31st March 2016. Do I only report the income I made from my side business or my total income?

        • Any GST you collected. You wouldn't be charging GST on your salary would you?

          And don't forget you can deduct GST paid on business inputs.

        • There should be different methods for paying your tax instalment:

          Are you looking at a form similiar to this PDF on this page?

          https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Business-activity-statements…

          There are different options for payment of your instalment and you can vary or choose a different method that suits you better

        • Do I only report the income I made from my side business or my total income?

          you only report the income where you issue a tax/invoice to your clients or customers.

        • @greenpossum:

          IASs aren't for GST, are they? Only BASs are?

      • Even though charging GST is optional below the threshold, my accountant advised to charge it anyway.

        what industry is your business in? is it goods or services? how much did you spend on supplies and/or assets last fiscal?

        • Services. Negligible. Problem arises because most clients will assume GST and more chance of misreporting. And anyway GST collected is in my pocket until EoFY.

        • @greenpossum:

          sorry, i thought you were op.

          Services. Negligible.

          the problem i see with this is that you spend very little on supplies, but have to charge your clients 10% for gst. a 10% that you can't keep. you would benefit more from not being registered and price your services a few percent cheaper than your competitors.

          Problem arises because most clients will assume GST and more chance of misreporting.

          just be upfront and tell them that you don't charge gst.

          And anyway GST collected is in my pocket until EoFY.

          this is good for cashflow, but not worth it for someone like op with only ~$300 of gst per month.

        • @whooah1979: See my reply to Luke below. I won't lose customers for charging 10% more.

        • +4

          @greenpossum:

          I won't lose customers fit charging 10% more.

          there is no way to know that with a 100% certainty. you may not lose clients, but there may have been potential clients that went with a provider that was cheaper. ozb is proof that some consumers will go to great lengths to get a bargain.

        • @whooah1979: I've got all the clients I can handle. Price is not one of the first questions they ask. Note, clients, not customers, so longer relationships.

      • +1

        This is lazy and terrible advice. It is better to understand the effect of GST registration on your business; look up or some other site on google :
        http://www.flyingsolo.com.au/finance/business-tax-tips/shoul…

        If you register for GST and do not add a +10% increase to your turnover your net income will be less

        e.g. take into account hypothetical earnings of

        Gross 75,000
        GST 6,818
        Net 68,182

        versus

        Gross 74,999

        What about input tax credits from purchases or if you're a service business and not trading? e.g. Food/takeaway are the purchases predominantly GST Free (fresh foods etc) and your income will have GST? Down the line you will have to increase your prices by 10% if you want the same earnings as before GST registration

        • Not at all. My business is such that looking cheaper by 1/11th isn't going to lose me clients. I assure you I went through this with my accountant back when GST was introduced, even before the simplifications.

        • @greenpossum:

          It's still a difference in earnings by the amount that you remit as GST;

          other than that a GST registration before the 75k threshold should be better for your takings

          in the scenario that if you provide exports and gst free sales where you will have a considerable amount of input credits to claim

          e.g. exporting goods and your purchases have GST on them or gst free sales -fresh food, medical etc- where you have other expenses such as accounting fees / other overheads to claim)

          edit: Are you clients businesses or consumers? If they are consumers they won't see the difference in the effect of GST registration as they won't be claiming GST input tax credits and are the ones who bear the GST at the end, in that scenario you can halt your GST registration

        • @loke: None of those situations apply to me. Accounting is done along with the tax return so little overhead. May not apply to OP, just saying that's what I did, and it works fine.

        • @greenpossum:

          You might want to bring up a spreadsheet to identify how much more in income you would have been better off without GST registration against your current situation with GST registration, keep in mind your highest marginal tax rate/tax bracket.

          I can see it as OK if its once off but depending on how long you have been in business the accumulated difference in your income may be quite significant. I'd recommend you bring it up with your accountant. (I've been an accountant at a small tax agent/firm for ~2 years now)

        • @loke: Don't worry, I have known what I'm doing for > 10 years. My GST situation is actually fairly simple. it's income neutral either way. I charge 10% more, no exports, and the ATO gets it at the end of the FY. As I wrote the ongoing compliance costs are negligible. It's also not my main income so hasn't moved me into a higher tax bracket. And I get a load of business deductions.

      • +1

        It also stops the client knowing you make less than 75k in gross profits.

  • +4

    Ok i try to explain but ask accountant to confirm.

    Since you had business and earn more than your normal income (if you earn normal then you wouldn't need to pay extra $8k as the tas is payg)

    So ato actually trying to help you in the following year, to pay your high tax of $8k, in installments instead of one payment like last year. Some people might feel easier to pay $2k each quarter especially business owner as they might need capitals.

    If your extra $40k income from business is just one off, follow instructions on the letter to ignore that or write back to ato says you prefer to pay tax annually.

    • +1

      Ok thanks. But the ATO is assuming I will make $100k again this year. What if I don't? Why is it fair that I still have to pay $8k for this financial year if I may only earn $50k hypothetically?

      • +1

        If your extra $40k income from business is just one off, follow instructions on the letter to ignore that or write back to ato says you prefer to pay tax annually.

        If you are estimating lower income from your business, follow the instructions on the tax form or consult with your accountant to change the amount of tax you pay on your instalment, be aware that if you pay too little on your instalment the ATO may calculate a general interest charge later on.

      • +3

        You can call the ATO and make an adjustment, but don't ignore them.. You'll get into trouble. Many years ago, I had a reduced income for the year and skipped my 4th payment in anticipation of a tax refund.. I still got a nasty-gram from the ATO and when I called them up about it, process dictated that I had to make the tax payment, even though I was going to have it nearly immediately refunded. Told them it was a load of BS, but apparently the tax receivable guys don't talk to the tax refund guys and they operated different accounting systems. Hopefully it has changed since then.

      • +2

        No, it doesn't seem fair, but unfortunately that's how the system works. Here's a Sydney Morning Herald article which explains it quite well: http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/finance/ato-letter-a-li… .

        I've been hit with a couple of times in the past (from interest/dividend income on top of my normal wages, not business income), and it absolutely sucks having to pay it all in advance, especially when you know (or are pretty sure) you won't be earning anywhere near the same income the next year, but if you do ask for it to be varied and the payment amount reduced based on your estimate of your income for the coming year, be VERY careful as if you underestimate, the ATO will penalise you even if it's not a deliberate error on your part.

      • +2

        Ok this happened to me so let me give you some information.

        Yes your PAYG installations are based on the last financial year so I would just pay whatever amount you are requested to pay quarterly. If you overpay, you will get a refund at the end of this financial year after you submit your tax.

  • +2

    There is a risk that you or your business may go broke over the next year and then the ATO would become a creditor. To avoid this they make you pay tax querterly (or monthly if you start earning enough).

    You have two options:
    1) The ATO has assumed you'll earn $40k this year and want you to pay $2k per quarter. Any difference between the $40k and what you actually earn for the year will be reconciled when you do your normal tax return at the end of the financial year.
    2) You can calculate your actual profit for the quarter and then pay 20% of this to the ATO. Again the difference will be reconciled at the end of the tax year.

    Up to you what you pick.

  • +1

    Thanks for all the information everyone. I'm still pretty confused and overwhelmed with all this but I will call my accountant tomorrow and see what he says.

    • +1

      Hi OP, the ATO letter you recently received (as would have been triggered by the lodgement of your 2014-15 tax return by your accountant recently) is just a heads up advising you that you're registered for the PAYG instalment commencing the next quarterly Activity Statement cycle. You don't have to pay the calculated amount now and will be advised of the quarterly amount payable in your first PAYG Instalment Notice. You will probably get your first quarterly Notice (for the 4th quarter of 2015-16) around mid June with the payment due date of 28 July 2016.

      Your accountant is likely to ask you for your year-to-date FY16 business information assuming he only looks into your numbers in retrospect and so would not have any insight into your FY16 numbers as yet) or suggests that some tax planning work to be done for you in order to determine if you need to vary your 4th quarter instalment.

      Not sure how your accountant charges you but that may be extra work ahead of your FY16 tax return which he/she may charge you for. If you feel that your side business is not significantly worse that FY15, I suggest that you just pay the $2k (1/4th of the $8k) as will be specified on your upcoming PAYG Instalment Notice by 28 July 2016 and then have your accountant work out your FY16 final tax as soon as you can after EOFY, so you are better equipped when assessing whether or not to vary the following quarter's PAYG Instalment (1st quarter FY17 - due 28 Oct 2016).

      If you lodge your FY16 tax return before your Q1 FY17 PAYG Instalment is due (ie. 28 Oct 2016) and it turns out that the notional tax on your business income is reduced to below $8k, you will have the option to elect for annual PAYG Instalment (has to be done by 28 Oct 2016 too) which will allow you to pay your FY17 PAYG Instalment in a lump sum by 21 October 2017.

      As an individual (including if you're in business as a sole trader), you can view, lodge, pay, vary and manage all your PAYG instalment obligations online if you have a myGov account linked to the ATO.

  • +15

    Some types of income have tax withheld as you earn it (eg wages & salaries).

    There are types of income do not have tax withheld when you earn it (for example business income, interest, partnership distributions etc)

    When you earn over a certain amount of the second type of income in a year, the following year, the ATO assumes you will have a similar level of that income again, and so want the tax up front, so that it is more like the first type of income. This is called the Pay as you Go (PAYG) Instalment system.

    They claim this helps with your cash flow so that you do not have a huge tax bill at the end of the year when you lodge your tax return, but really they just want their money up front.

    Because your business income was over their threshold last year, they have put you into the PAYG Instalment system this year. The amount you have to pay is based on your income from last year. yes, they are assuming you will earn a similar amount again.

    If you pay the 4 x instalments during the year, and when you come to lodge your tax return it turns out you did not earn as much as they expected, you will get a refund of the difference in the tax. If you earned more, you will pay the difference.

    If you are certain your income this year will be less this year than last year, you can do a variation of the instalment they have calculated. However, if you vary the amount and are too low, you can be penalised.

    The discussion above regarding GST is irrelevant to your question. The PAYG Instalment has nothing to do with GST.

    Hope this helps!

    • Thank you!! You explained that really well!

      So is the instalment activity statement I received earlier this year related to only my side business income?

      • +1

        Only your side business income. Wages/salaries already attract withholding tax from your employer.

        Check the pdf : https://www.ato.gov.au/workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7364

        on

        https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Business-activity-statements…

        and the following: https://www.ato.gov.au/General/payg-instalments/how-to-vary-…

        You should have 2 options to choose for the PAYG instalment amount

        If you do not expect a similar level of income for your business, you will have to vary it as per the instructions, if you look at the instructions in the pdf and as I mentioned before if you underestimate it much you may have to pay a general interest charge later on. Are you also outside the due date for the amount?

        Consult your accountant if you need further help/advice to filling the form and varying your PAYG instalment.

        • +1

          I am am few days outside the due date for the instalment activity statement. It was for the period 1st Jan to 31st March. But if this isn't related to tax, what am I paying? GST?

          So I have to pay my $2k every quarter + whatever this instalment statement is asking for?

          I understand the PAYG aspect now and I will pay the required $2k per quarter, as I probably will earn around $40k from my side business this year. But only closer to $30k from my 9 to 5 job if that makes any difference.

          it's just the instalment statement I'm confused about now

          EDIT: ok I've done some more reading and just want to clarify if this is correct; the ATO has calculated that I have to pay $2k a quarter. I can either pay this exact amount each quarter OR i can fill in the instalment activity statement for each quarter to determine how much tax I need to pay for that quarter based on the actual figures I earned and the expenses I had. So it's one or the other. Is that correct? Or am i way off base haha

        • @Heracles26:

          Yeah it's just income tax from your side business that they want to collect sooner based on your previous tax return:

          https://www.ato.gov.au/General/payg-instalments/how-to-vary-…

          You can pay what they determine or vary it online at the above link if you're with mygov, if not contact your accountant for more information.

          edit: forgot to say side business + investment income (interest, rent, etc if these are significant)

        • @Heracles26:

          Hi OP, sorry I was replying to your first post in my earlier comment without noticing that you already received your first IAS - which would have been due on 28 April 2016

          Just to clarify, which of the following type of activity statement did you receive? The type of IAS form is differentiated by a letter at the top left corner of the Form.

          PAYG Instalment Notice (Form R):
          https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedFiles/Content/CAS/downloads/B…

          IAS Form B:
          https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedFiles/Content/CAS/downloads/B…

          Form R is usually known as a remittance advice and requires no lodgement unless a variation is needed.

          Form B requires lodgement and you will be required to select either option 1 or option 2 to calculate your PAYG instalment amount.

          Please note that ATO would not accept any variation to your prescribed PAYG instalment amount for the period if lodged past its due date.

          If you let us know the type of IAS form you received for the Jan - Mar quarter, we might be able to help you further or see what your options are.

        • @Mcz:

          It has an I on the top left corner. I called the ATO just now but the person I spoke to wasn't very helpful :/

        • @Heracles26:

          Does it look like this https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedFiles/Content/CAS/downloads/B… ?

          If so, it relates to PAYG tax withheld, which doesn't really apply to you unless you employ anyone?

          Are you able to scan the form blocking out any private information?

        • @Mcz:

          see my update, its all been sorted thankfully!

  • +4

    Wow do you mind me asking what your side business is and ur day job?

    • this plz, only if you are comfortable, do bear in mind, this is a PUBLIC forum tho : P

    • +1

      Based on OP's post history it appears this side business is tutoring students. Most likely private.

      • wish i could get 40k tutoring students

  • Taxation advice on Ozbargain is rubbish in most instances.
    The discussion of GST is offtopic and only confuses the question
    @Smulder gives the best explanation - I would ignore everything else.

  • -1

    I always adjust to zero and pay at end of financial year, money in my pockets are better than the ATO'S.

    • +2

      ….. you mean to say that you make a false or misleading statement in your PAYG Instalment statement to avoid having to pay the instalment until end of year?

      You do realise that you are prohibited from making such false statements to the ATO, right?

      • -3

        No, ATO asks you if you want to pay now or later (adjust instalment to zero)…they offer the instalment to "help you".

  • they just use last years figures to estimate the next years figures to get you to pay tax in advance since the side business doesn't do this.

    wouldn't you have to do bas statements though ?

    if you don't end up making 40k the next financial year you will get the tax returned. or you can opt out if the payment.

    I hate paying them as the ATO once lost my payment and it took 3 months to have it found but I told then to apply interest at the rate they would charge me and they did

    you are only paying 20% tax on the 40k doesn't sound right to me.

    • I'm a sole trader with a rate of 16%. In my case it is % of turnover but my deductions are about 45% so it ends up at the correct amount in the end

  • 100K income and only 8k tax? Or is that 8k just for the business earning 40K. and you got charged normal income rates for your 9-5?

    • +1

      His 9-5 wages already taxed in his wages payment weekly/fortnightly. however his 40k from side business was untaxed until reported. With the tax table, and with estimate deducation $5900 of the first 20k income was taxed at 32.5% and the next 20k income was taxed at 37%.

  • Hi I do my own tax last year, and read few about it, hopefully I can help. so for op question:
    1. Rather than someone need to pay $8000-$9000 at the end of year, ATO splits the amount to quarterly basis, thus $2000 a month - easier to pay.
    2. ATO would assume you have the same income this year.
    3. If you leave your activity statement unchanged and just pay the $2000, you will get tax refund at the end of year, assuming you get nothing out of your side business you will get $8000 tax refund.
    You can always do adjustment in that activity statement form, to reflect the actual income you make this year.

    • Thanks for the reply. The IAS statement I received has been overdue now for a few days. Does this mean I will just pay the $2k? Will I receive a bill for this soon?

      I'd rather just pay the $2k quarterly and not have to worry about these IAS statements if that's an option?

      • Assuming you are referring to the activity statement you receive that due on April 28 or something that is meant for January to March? Yes you need to pay immediately as you're actually late now.

        if you decide to pay, there is nothing you need to do beside just pay for that $2000.
        You don't have to resubmit that activity statement.

        If money is not an issue, you can pay for it and get tax refund at the end of the year, and ATO will recalculate your new installment based on your tax return this year.

  • +1

    I haven't read other comments so if already covered then please ignore.

    I am a tax advisor (CA), but consider this advice general in nature.

    So in your previously lodged tax return you had $8K payable. It appears that has arisen from your business income.

    Other income like salary/wages has tax withheld throughout the year.

    Now the ATO assumes that your prior year investment income will roughly equal your current year investment income, and that your overall tax position should be similar. So crudely, the ATO then takes this $8k estimated tax and says "we want this ahead of time - pay us in quarterly instalments". That way when you lodge your return you have essentially paid the tax on that income.

    Now it is not a perfect system, your situation could have changed, and if you read your PAYG instalment notice provided by the ATO carefully, you would have seen that you have an opportunity to vary downwards the instalment amount. Be careful though, because if you are too aggressive in your downwards variation the ATO can charge interest and penalties on your year end tax debt.

    • Thank you. I understand now how the entire process works and why it's done now thanks to all the posts.

      I am confused now more so in relation to the IAS statement I received and whether or not I have to fill this in? Or if I can just ignore it (it's already a few days overdue) and wait for an invoice for the $2k for this first quarter?

      Ideally I'd just like to pay the $2k per quarter and then wait and see if I get any back come tax time rather than filling in the IAS statements each quarter. (If indeed I'm correct in thinking this is how it works)

      The IAS statement has an I in the top left corner

      • Waiting and not doing anything is not a good idea.

        When i got it the first time, i called them and changed the quarterly to yearly.

        2nd time when i got, they wont change it. So suggested me to fill the form with my expected estimate but the trick is that if your estimate vs actual are materially different (think materiality was 5% or 10%) then you will be liable for penalty.

        If you file tax using an agent, its very easy for them to change the payment from quarterly to yearly using the system.

  • ********* UPDATE ************

    First of all thank you everyone for your responses! I have just spoken with my accountant and everything has been cleared up!

    • In relation to the PAYG side of things - I will pay the estimated amount determined by the ATO when the first bill for 1st quarter is sent to me (which is in June according to my accountant).

    • In relation to the IAS I received, this I can ignore! My accountant looked at my records and apparently I, or my mum, registered me as an employer using my ABN when we were doing cleaning back 5 or so years ago. This IAS statement I received is in relation to wages I pay my employees (I don't have nor have I ever had any employees, I don't know what happened here). My accountant has canceled this so I will no longer be receiving these statements. I spoke to mum and apparently she has been receiving these IAS and putting $0 each quarter.

    Hope this all made sense and thanks again everyone!

  • What does the installment rate mean?

  • The ATO bases the PAYG instalments for the current year on the last tax return lodged. They usually have a formula that calculates a small increase in your taxable income and bases the PAYG instalments on that income figure. Each year that you lodge your tax return, the instalment calculation done by the ATO will change the quarter after you've lodged your return.

    If you're worried about the PAYG instalment, maybe because of the impact to your cash flow, you'll need to do an estimate of how much taxable income you'll report for the year to the ATO. If in your estimate you believe you'll earn more (or less), you can vary the instalment to make it either more or less than what the ATO says you have to pay. Keep in mind that if your tax bill varies more than 20% from what you estimated on the form you'll get hit with a penalty, so make sure you talk with your accountant before varying the instalment. With the size of the net income from your business it would be beneficial to get tax estimates done (usually near the end of the financial year). That way you can vary your instalment amount if necessary and also get suggestions as to how to minimize your tax payable and implement those suggestions before the 30th of June.

    • It's 15%, which has changed recently from 10%.

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