Turning Left on BUS LANE

LEVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:13

Hi all, Im here hoping for some advice/guidance…..(sorry if this was posted in the wrong section)

Anyway…. On the morning of the offence, I proceeded to exit Arundel Street and turn left onto Great Western Highway Paramatta

MAP: http://bit.ly/2b333Cv

As i continued down the road I needed to turn left onto Derwent Street. I drove along the normal lane until I was reasonably close to the intersection (approximately 10 meters away) and then changed onto the bus lane on my left to make a left turn onto Derwent Street (when the photo was taken). The photo clearly shows that my left indicator is blinking signaling a left-turn ahead.

PHOTO: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxje1stygc3vqgu/pic1.jpg?dl=0

I understand that motorists can be fined for driving on a bus lane but I believe my situation falls into the exceptional circumstances that allow vehicles to travel on the bus lane for up to 100 meters when turning into or out of a street.
Reference: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/using-roads/buses/bus-lanes.…

I wrote to them and today, they came back basically saying that I need to pay otherwise if I would need to go to a court hearing…..

I am adamant I have done nothing wrong as I am clearly under 100m. Should I dispute this and go to court? If I lose, are there additional charges which I am liable for?

Thanks in advance!!

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Comments

  • amkssg on 10/08/2016 - 22:25

    Note: In order for you to get a fine, your picture needs to be taken by TWO consecutive bus lane cameras. Are you sure you were not in the bus lane at the previous junction?

  • amkssg on 10/08/2016 - 22:26

    Read "How the cameras work" in your link.

  • EVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:33

    I had to turn out (LH turn) just before the first camera, turn into that close lane due to traffic (actually you should always turn into the closest lane to you) and then move over as traffic allows, then move back in further up to take the LH turn to Derwent St.

    Explanation 1:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9qt2r0pfse51sc/Explanation.jpg?dl…

    PHOTO1:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4jyluatoe8cst4/Pic2.jpg?dl=0

    PHOTO2:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxje1stygc3vqgu/pic1.jpg?dl=0

    Explanation 2:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9tghs2a2lxxjfum/Explanation2.jpg?d…

    Sorry for the confusion!

  • EVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:36

    After Photo 1, I changed to the normal lane, then as I got closer to the intersection to turn left on Derwent St, I changed back to bus lane (photo2) in order to make the LH turn.

    In both instances, I was under 100m from the camera….

    • nocure on 10/08/2016 - 22:41

      Do you have dashcam footage?

      • EVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:48

        sigh…………..u know what, I actually have one , but because i use it everyday, the footage has been recorded over………..

        Looks like ill be saving my footages every night from now on…..

        It seems like I'd have to cop the fine seeing there's no evidence I can supply that i had left the bus lane between the 2 cameras……. but then again, they have no evidence that I have stayed in the bus lane between the 2 cameras……

    • amkssg on 10/08/2016 - 22:49

      In both instances, I was under 100m from the camera….

      I don't think you understand. It has nothing to do with how far you are from the camera.

      There are 2 cameras. "Camera 1" and "Camera 2" are slightly more than 100m from each other. So, if both "Camera 1" and "Camera 2" can take your picture, that means you were in the bus lane for the road between the cameras, which is more than 100m.

      • EVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:52

        but the thing is after camera 1 has taken my photo, i actually moved to the normal lane and continued down the road, it was until i wanted to turn left to Derwent street that i moved back to the bus lane and thats when camera 2 got me.

        • amkssg on 10/08/2016 - 22:54

          As per your reply below to whooah1979, you kind of know that it's difficult to prove that. It's just a question of whether or not you think you have a case.

    • whooah1979 on 10/08/2016 - 22:49

      After Photo 1, I changed to the normal lane, then as I got closer to the intersection to turn left on Derwent St, I changed back to bus lane (photo2) in order to make the LH turn.
      In both instances, I was under 100m from the camera….

      the camera doesn't know what you did between the image 1 and image 2. the system assume you drove the whole 300m (or whatever the distance between the cameras) in the bus lane.

      • EVO0612 on 10/08/2016 - 22:52

        yeah i figured that ……. looks like the only way to prove that I had left the bus lane straight after cam1 is dash cam footage….. SIGHHHHHHH

  • indium on 10/08/2016 - 22:56

    You've got no evidence to support your claim so although you may be right it's probably not worth the time/money/anxiety taking it to court.

  • pyramid on 10/08/2016 - 22:58

    All the evidences are against EVO0612 and he does not have any proof to prove his/her innocence. so this case can be closed now.

  • EVO0612 on 11/08/2016 - 00:02

    Thanks everyone :) Anyone know whether or not they have video recording of the incident? if so then it will show that i have in fact excited the bus lane after cam1 then re-enter bus lane in cam2 in order to turn left…

  • Findo on 11/08/2016 - 00:56

    Take it to court and plead your case, you might get lucky and be a catalyst for change.

  • DarkOz on 11/08/2016 - 06:44
    +1

    It seems like you and the authority that fined you both are not wrong. It's just a case of a system not being perfect and can't be perfected unless big money is spent.

    Taking it to court is really up to your personal preference. If you have the time and energy to spare I don't see why not. Otherwise it's not worth the hassle.

  • Miwee on 11/08/2016 - 09:04

    The EXACT same thing happened to me 5 years ago. I was also turning onto Arundel St from Parramatta road and got fined. I called to complain that I was in the bus lane only because I was about to turn left (would only have merged into the lane a bit before, or I guess I must have been there for both cameras?). The lady I spoke to said I'm not allowed in the bus lane EVER. So what I was supposed to turn left from the non bus lane? She's said yes I should have turned left from the middle lane. So stupid. Don't set your hopes on dealing with logical people.

    • pgcs on 11/08/2016 - 09:15

      The main point is: it is a BUS ONLY LANE.

      A BUS LANE you can be in to turn left (eg Great Western into Good St)

      A BUS ONLY LANE you cannot be in for anything.

      Don't wait waste your time or more money. You will not windows in court.

      • cwongtech on 12/08/2016 - 07:16

        Google streetview images show its "BUS LANE" not bus only lane though? It's supposed to be marked and signposted as bus only lane not bus lane..

        Maybe signpost is incorrect?

    • EVO0612 on 11/08/2016 - 09:34

      THanks Miwee, how much was the fine do you remember?

      • Miwee on 11/08/2016 - 11:13

        Sorry EVO0612 can't remember how much it was

  • Euphemistic on 11/08/2016 - 09:17
    +1

    Check your measurements. From what I can see in Photo2 as you are about to turn left you aren't 10m from the corner. There is at least 3 cars in front of you before the turn. Assuming each car is 5m long, allow some space behind in front and each car is probably taking around 8-10m. You are more likely 30-50m from the corner, add to this that you are already well and truly in the lane and you could have merged over at 70-100m out from the corner.

    Additionally in photo 1 you are also completely in the lane. The camera is more like 30m from the corner and you are in front of it, so probably 50m from the corner and you haven't moved out yet.

    Another way of estimating the distance is the line markings on the road are 12m apart (I think), start of white line to start of next line.

    Edit: in addition in photo 1 there is no traffic beside you and there is no indicator showing you are merging right. I don't think you have any chance of getting that turned over in court.

    • Kangal on 11/08/2016 - 10:24

      ^THIS !

      I think you're right, I also noticed that.
      It seems the cameras are spread apart something like 300m, but you've cut in and cut out for about 100m.
      So technically you've infringed the condition.

      However, had you merged in to the bus lane just before the turn and just after the turn… well its likely that one of the two cameras would've missed you.
      You would've only had to travel about 60m for it.

      With that said, any regular driver in that situation would get booked.
      Why?
      Because there was traffic and it was Sydney…. bunch of a hole drivers there that won't give you right of way and constantly cut you off.

      What do I think?
      I think the gov knew this was a tricky spot for the bus lane. And that offences were definitely made before, possibly exceptions were made also.
      I also believe they gave you ample distance to merge in and merge out, but you were a little lazy and merged in early, and merged out late.
      But! I'm pretty sure the gov didn't consider the psychology of Sydney drivers in to effect.
      So you could either cop the fine.

      Or go to small court, represent yourself, and plead your case.
      Dress nicely, be polite, and try to explain from a "productive member o society" form.
      Say you knew you weren't supposed to be on bus lane, but that the road designed in a way to use it to exit.
      Say other civilian cars were also using it.
      Say that you tried to enter in quickly, and exit out quickly, but that traffic was cutting you off, so you were forced to travel longer to maintain some speed in order to prevent any congestion or accidents.
      And show your driving record, as proof, that you are a responsible driver.
      It could be worth a shot.

      __rant
      Millenniums ago when I was on my P's, I got done by a LIDAR.
      It was on Parammatta road. I was doing 59km/h, the road is 60km/h.
      I was on the far left lane, and cars on the right lane were overtaking me, doing like 66km/h.
      The time was 2:25pm.
      I got done for doing 66km in a 40km zone, and that it was a school zone.
      So the cop disregarded the other offenders, why, because I was closer to him.
      And on top of that, he was wrong that it wasn't a school zone, because it wasn't time yet and the school zone sign was NOT flashing.
      He realised this when I pointed it out to him, and checked his watch, he mumbled something then went back to his car.
      He sat in his car looking busy for 10 minutes, no I still had my driver's license so I he was just wasting time "looking for his book" for 10 minutes.
      I know because my old car had a frigging huge clock in the centre and it was always wound forward.
      And my phone also confirmed the time of offence was too early.
      When he came back, he inspected the bottom of my car, the hood of my car, and the trunk/boot.
      I was thinking "a body can't fit in this boot" and that "who would stick a turbo into this hokey hatchback"
      I wasn't thinking straight and realise he was just wasting time.
      Then he took my driver's license, and wrote up into his book.
      Not only did he write 2.40pm as time of offence, he also wrote 66km/h… that muppet !
      It was his first sting of the day, and he just wanted to count up his tally.
      This cop was a very rude, old, racist cop… that when I "politely" pointed out he was wrong he got aggro on me.
      He made some racist remark, and said go home and pay the fine.
      And good luck fighting that in court.
      So I that one incident, I was suspended, and had to pay ~$700 fine.
      Dashcams were fairly new/pricey at that point… but if I had one at that moment, it would've paid for itself.

      In fact, knowing what I know now… I would've let the police write out that fraudulent fine and make those remarks in to the dashcam.
      Then I would've taken his name.
      Then I would've pulled over to the side street and called the local police station and asked for a senior constable to come down.
      Hopefully by the time he comes down, I would've stopped the recording and made a backup into my Nokia N95.
      And when the senior constable comes, I would've explained everything to him.
      And the crooked cop would've denied it. And the s.constable would've sided with him.
      Then I would've shown the footage.
      They would either arrest me, and destroy the evidence, or ripped the fine then and there.
      And if they unlawfully arrested me, I would've gone into court and shown the footage to a judge to embarrass the police conduct.
      And if they conceded, and ripped the fine off, I would've uploaded it to YouTube (which was new).
      It's a shame, that we have policeman behaving this way.
      __end rant

      • Kangal on 11/08/2016 - 10:24
        +1

        __rant
        Millenniums ago when I was on my P's, I got done by a LIDAR.
        It was on Parammatta road. I was doing 59km/h, the road is 60km/h.
        I was on the far left lane, and cars on the right lane were overtaking me, doing like 66km/h.
        The time was 2:25pm.
        I got done for doing 66km in a 40km zone, and that it was a school zone.
        So the cop disregarded the other offenders, why, because I was closer to him.
        And on top of that, he was wrong that it wasn't a school zone, because it wasn't time yet and the school zone sign was NOT flashing.
        He realised this when I pointed it out to him, and checked his watch, he mumbled something then went back to his car.
        He sat in his car looking busy for 10 minutes, no I still had my driver's license so I he was just wasting time "looking for his book" for 10 minutes.
        I know because my old car had a frigging huge clock in the centre and it was always wound forward.
        And my phone also confirmed the time of offence was too early.
        When he came back, he inspected the bottom of my car, the hood of my car, and the trunk/boot.
        I was thinking "a body can't fit in this boot" and that "who would stick a turbo into this hokey hatchback"
        I wasn't thinking straight and realise he was just wasting time.
        Then he took my driver's license, and wrote up into his book.
        Not only did he write 2.40pm as time of offence, he also wrote 66km/h… that muppet !
        It was his first sting of the day, and he just wanted to count up his tally.
        This cop was a very rude, old, racist cop… that when I "politely" pointed out he was wrong he got aggro on me.
        He made some racist remark, and said go home and pay the fine.
        And good luck fighting that in court.
        So I that one incident, I was suspended, and had to pay ~$700 fine.
        Dashcams were fairly new/pricey at that point… but if I had one at that moment, it would've paid for itself.

        In fact, knowing what I know now… I would've let the police write out that fraudulent fine and make those remarks in to the dashcam.
        Then I would've taken his name.
        Then I would've pulled over to the side street and called the local police station and asked for a senior constable to come down.
        Hopefully by the time he comes down, I would've stopped the recording and made a backup into my Nokia N95.
        And when the senior constable comes, I would've explained everything to him.
        And the crooked cop would've denied it. And the s.constable would've sided with him.
        Then I would've shown the footage.
        They would either arrest me, and destroy the evidence, or ripped the fine then and there.
        And if they unlawfully arrested me, I would've gone into court and shown the footage to a judge to embarrass the police conduct.
        And if they conceded, and ripped the fine off, I would've uploaded it to YouTube (which was new).
        It's a shame, that we have policeman behaving this way.
        __end rant

  • paul_5666 on 11/08/2016 - 09:38
    +1

    Hmm surely this explanation would raise reasonable doubt in a magistrate's mind. The onus should be on the prosecutor to prove that OP did actually drive in the bus lane for that entire distance.

    • danyboy on 19/08/2016 - 04:53
      -1

      Do you need to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or do you need to be found guilty on the balance of probabilities… I would guess the latter in this case :)

    • chumlee on 19/08/2016 - 06:40
      +1

      Traffic offenses are a strict liability offense. You need to prove your innocence

      • Euphemistic on 19/08/2016 - 09:21

        Maybe not strict liability, not sure if that is the right term Tthey are definitly guilty until proven innocent however.

      • paul_5666 on 19/08/2016 - 11:41

        Are you a lawyer? I'm not but strict liability merely means that if you committed the offence then your intention to commit the offence doesn't need to be proven for you to be fined/convicted.
        I am not arguing about OPs intention but rather if he actually committed the offence. His explanation provides some doubt as to whether he actually committed the offence or not. This has nothing to do with the offence being strict liability.

        As to @danyboy, this is beyond reasonable doubt because it is not a civil case… despite what you hear people saying all the time. "Council parking tickets are civil cases." No, if you take them to court they are dealt with as a criminal matter since you are accused with an offence provided by a piece of legislation.

  • tungsten on 11/08/2016 - 09:46

    I just wonder after exiting Arundel Street turning left onto the Hwy, why on earth does EVO0612 stay on the Bus lane(???), shouldn't he does the left turm from Arundel Street onto the normal lane on the Hwy???

    • EVO0612 on 11/08/2016 - 09:49

      The cars were approaching at speed so I thought the safest way to get out is to first enter the closest lane to me (which in the case was the bus lane) before merging back to normal lane.

      • Mumbles on 11/08/2016 - 19:52

        I just had a look at the street view on Google maps of where the first speed camera is.

        At 100metres after turning out of the side street there's a Speed camera ahead warning sign next to the bus lane times. The actual camera further down the road.

        That means you were in the bus lane for more than 150 metres before camera 1 took your photo.

        My recommendation is to take it as a lesson and buy a motorcycle. Motorcycles are permitted to use bus lanes. They're smaller and can legally lane split offer more options to safely merge along your Sydney commute.

        • [Deactivated] on 12/08/2016 - 09:07

          I looked on street view couldn't see a speed camera there is one on the opposite side of the road?

          but regardless you are correct the offender was in the bus lane at least 60m at the starting point and 60m at the end. far too long

          I have a corolla too and to reach merging speed of 60kmh without straining the engine is 46m
          The official rating of corolla is 4.6sec to 60Kph or (38m)
          I see no effort to indicate to merge. and no traffic congestion to prevent merging. plenty of room to reach merging speed of 60kph before the 60m camera.

          The lying OP is wasting all our time 10 20 metres? bulltish

          You've traveled 'minimum' 150 metres in the Bus lane if you don't understand speed or know how to safely merge or cannot judge distance you should NOT be allowed to drive

          Consider the ticket a generous gift to continue to have the privilege of being a driver

          Pay The Fine and dont drive in the Bus lane to zip pass traffic

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