Infringement. Vic Licence Precedes International.

meantolive on 07/03/2017 - 23:18
Last edited 08/03/2017 - 09:43 by 1 other user

Hi Ozbargain Community,

I know there's been many users asking about contesting infringement notices (which usually ends up with a "just pay it!") , but mine is a really special case (I believe so) and I'm turning to this reliable community for advise.

I left Melbourne for good about 1.5 years ago and just recently came back for a short holiday.
I borrowed a car from a friend to drive to Yarra Valley.

Whilst driving back from Yarra Valley, there was a highway patrol road block where they randomly select cars for checking. I was selected and was asked to produce my drivers license.

I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

15 minutes later, the officer came back with 2 infringement notices.
1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+
2) Fail to display L plates. Code 2112. RSDR 47(1). Fined $150+

The officer told me that any Victorian License precedes any other licenses. Something which I didn't know. He further informed me that I could only contest this in court.
I'm really puzzled over the first infringement. It was not as though I was trying to hide anything.

I'm here on holiday and this ruins the mood. I'm wondering what implications are there for these infringements.
1) Is there any other way I can contest this?
2) What happens to me if I don't pay it? Will my friend who lent me the car get any issues?

Thanks very much in advance!

Automotive

Comments

- - meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 11:56
    
    +1
    
    Infringement for not displaying my Ls, fair enough. But was the first infringement really necessary?
    - ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 17:12
      
      Absolutely. Let me put it this way - if you hadn't have given the Police officer your Learners license, you'd likely still have gotten that fine. They'd have still run your details through their DB and found out that you have a valid Learners license in Victoria.
    - meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 17:24
      
      @ThithLord: I was looking more of the other direction. If I hadn't given the officer my international license, I would not be getting the fine.
Miss B on 09/03/2017 - 13:17

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…

Issue of driver licence or learner permit to holder of licence or permit issued outside Victoria

The wording of the bold at the top suggests it doesn't apply, because you weren't the holder of a licence or permit at the time (or did you have the equivalent of a Singapore learner permit?), but I doubt it would hold up in court. The rest is pretty clear about licences and permits granted in other jurisdictions ceasing to authorise you to drive once you have a Victorian driver licence or learner permit (regardless of which order they were received in).

The second part, for which you received the fine, doesn't say anything about producing the Victorian licence or permit. It simply states that you shouldn't show your licence or permit from another jurisdiction. You said yourself that you did show it, regardless of what else you showed.

It seems a bit unfair, but taking into account that you believed your overseas licence authorised you to drive and you didn't have L plates displayed, it seems as though you would have shown your overseas licence as though it authorised you to drive on the highway. You said yourself that you handed over your overseas licence first, though you didn't hide your learner permit. This makes the fine seem more reasonable. You said yourself you carry your leaner permit as identification. It was your responsibility to know that your overseas licence did not authorise you to drive on Victorian roads. Be glad you had a licenced driver next to you and you weren't fined more.

It seems a bit silly and an expensive lesson. It probably wasn't helped by getting the learner permit first and the overseas licence after, they'd probably have explained it when you got your learner permit otherwise. If only you'd known so you could cancel the learner permit in advance. Try to enjoy your holiday anyway.
Plug on 09/03/2017 - 13:26

How about just not paying at all when you return to Singapore
- phluffed on 09/03/2017 - 13:41
  
  +2
  
  Can cause issues if ever trying to return to Australia.
aussie bargain on 09/03/2017 - 14:53

-2

I don't think you need to pay the fine.
You are not guilty of both offences.
The law is very clear on this, but perhaps the police officer has interpreted it in a certain way.

Have a look at:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…

Your situation is that you "hold an appropriate licence or permit issued in another State, Territory or country" so in this case the officer shouldn't have even considered your learners anyway as you hold a valid singaporean license (granted that they cannot check in the middle of the road with the Singaporean authorities that it hasn't been cancelled).

Write a letter explaining all that you have in the forum and you should be off the hook.
If you want to make it even more legit, maybe you can also get a Singaporean police or an equivalent RTA to confirm that your licence is all ok (not sure if that's possible though).

Maybe once all is good, you can treat all (or some of us ozbargainers) a good cup of kopi?
:)
- meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 10:18
  
  In the eyes of the law it seems I'm guilty. It's just extremely tight. It's like stopping your car in a loading zone to drop a passenger off when it's safe. Seems ok, but still against road traffic laws.
  - aussie bargain on 10/03/2017 - 16:35
    
    +2
    
    I don't think that's a good analogy as loading zone is a clear violation of the law (not sure about which clause though)
    
    Regardless, I still think that you are not liable for any of those offences.
    If you look at what they charge you with:
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…
    
    They are effectively charging you with the following clause:
    If a person is granted a driver licence or learner permit under this Act (a Victorian licence or permit ), any driver licence or learner permit held by the person issued in another State or a Territory or an overseas jurisdiction (a non-Victorian licence or permit ) ceases to authorise the person to drive a motor vehicle on a highway
    
    In my opinion, this is not an appropriate interpretation of the law as the clause is clearly meant to "stop" licences from outside Victoria being valid AFTER the person gains a Victorian license. It shouldn't mean that if you already have a Victorian license, then all of the license you gain after that "stop" operating in Victoria.
    
    It is difficult to comprehend, but it is a matter of timeline and logic.
    The logic from the wording of the law is:
    If you are granted Victorian License —> License ceases to authorise. (which means from a logical perspective, at the time you are granted the Vic license (2010), any other licenses that you hold at the time (2010) ceases to authorise you to drive. - which for you was no other licenses)
    
    It shouldn't be interpreted as: (which the officer has done)
    If you have a valid victorian license (2010-2020), any other licenses that you hold at the time (2010-2020) ceases to authorise you to drive.
    
    Unless off course the judge (as the person who decides the final outcome in court) determines that the clause is there to encourage people with cancelling their victorian license when they move out of the state (i.e. ensuring that ppl only use one license at a time).
    Even in that case, you can still argue that effectively you have become a full license driver (by virtue of passing the test in singapore), hence, the learners permit shouldn't be seen as your "license to drive" as the whole point of the licensing system is to ensure that people are qualified to drive.
    
    The enforcement of the legal system depends quite a lot about the interpretation (by the judge/officer/you/whoever) of the actual wording and many times a person needs to understand the intent of the law and ensures that he/she interprets it in the way the law was intended.
    
    Note: I am not a lawyer and have never been qualified as one. However, I read a lot of legal documents and deal with a lot of lawyers to formulate my personal opinion on the above.
    
    I can be more cheeky to add that the above must not be taken as legal advise.
    :)
    - Roman Sandstorm on 10/03/2017 - 23:21
      
      +3
      
      Good to see some common sense in this long thread.
      
      So many OzB denizens are so quick to quote the 'letter of the law' in posts; whether they be about issues like this, or boundary disputes, or insurance claim, or consumer matters, whatever.
      
      But in reality, in a legal system which is in effect an amalgam of common law and statutory law (especially in regard to trivial and minor matters like the one described here), it is the interpretation by the presiding magistrate (if the matter goes to court) which is of most importance.
      
      As has been painstakingly pointed out by numerous pedants in this thread, if the OP had not produced his old Vic Learner's Permit at the same time he produced his Singapore Driver Licence, then there would have been no issue. So… because he handed over two pieces of plastic (in a genuine effort to be helpful), an overly-officious officer has cited him on two charges. This is, of course, ridiculous.
      
      I would be confident that the overwhelming majority of magistrates, on hearing of the exact circumstances, and realising that there was no attempt at deception, that no road rules were violated, and that it was only a particular reading of rather obscure legislation by a single police officer, would most likely simply dismiss the matter. And possibly have some sharp words for the police for bringing it to court and wasting public time and money.
      
      I'd suggest that most magistrates would realise that hardly anyone actually cancels their home state/country license when they move overseas. It's just a pointless bureaucratic procedure for most people, and very easy to overlook in the move to another country.
      
      What the OP needs to do is to clearly enunciate the exact circumstances in a letter to Civic Compliance….
      
      I had a Vic Learner's years ago.
      Left Australia.
      Got a full license in Singapore.
      Drove in Victoria on a visit.
      Police checked my license. I handed over my Singapore license, and being helpful, also my old Vic Learner's.
      I received these alleged violations.
      I'm now back in Singapore, but hope this can be resolved. I'm not trying to run away or avoid this.
      I was driving with a valid international license which I received long after I had the old Vic Learner's permit. And I only handed the permit over with my license to provide extra ID.
      Given these circumstances, please cancel these alleged violations.
      If you choose not to cancel these alleged violations, please explain the procedure I need to follow if you decide to take this matter to the courts. And how I can defend myself from an overseas location.
      Many thanks…
      
      Civic Compliance will then have to make a decision whether to press forward with this to court, or simply waive it. Being written rather than just a phone call, or a pop-in to a counter jockey, ensures the matter is taken seriously, by someone who can actually read, and who can make an actual decision. (Or at least their superior can.)
      
      Unless they are feeling particularly pernicious and vindictive, CC should look at this and just decide it is absurd. No harm. No road rules broken. And a magistrate would probably laugh at them.
      
      Disclaimer…
      
      As Aussie Bargain says:
      
      Note: I am not a lawyer and have never been qualified as one. However, I read a lot of legal documents…
Hellman109 on 09/03/2017 - 15:12

Had the 2010 license expired?

I would contest and just say "Sorry it was my mistake, I believed I could legally drive on my international license but I showed my old Victorian license as I was in Victoria".

I bet most judges would let you off, especially because there is nothing else tied to it, IE you weren't pulled over for speeding or such.
- ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 08:56
  
  -2
  
  lol no. Pleading ignorance will not work at all - when granted his Learners permit, he's meant to be fully aware of what he is being licensed to do. It's clearly a part of a Learners license.
  - meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 10:14
    
    So should I admit fault and just ask for leniency? Don't bother with the "I didn't know" etc?
    - ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 11:26
      
      -1
      
      Absolutely. This is your only course of action, other than just paying the fines outright.
[Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 17:32

I'm wondering what would happen in this case. Assuming the following

1) Australian license always takes precedence, regardless of learner/probation/open
2) But Australian Learners license as acquired first (for whatever reason, people come and go from any country)
3) Open license was acquired elsewhere couple of years later but valid to drive in Australia

What would happen if said person went to the transport office to cancel the Learners license AND convert the oversease license to Australian/Victorian

A) on a temporary (but long term) visa? - Would they say, conversion is not required but we can cancel the learners license?

B) on a permanent visa? - Would they say no you have to finishing learning here anyway (I assume this to be most likely). Would it be possible to cancel and convert on separate days then?

The question here lies on how comprehensive the records are and how far they'll go when the clerk moves to process your request.

Last question, should you fail to get processed under A or B circumstance, what will happen if you waited for the learners license to expire? Will the same situation still apply but you would have to renew the license or does the license just not count anymore?
lainey13 on 09/03/2017 - 22:46

+1

I was just in court recently and oh the amount of traffic infringements that got let off with a slap on the wrist!! Driving without lights on, turning left at no left turn sign, running a red light, speeding etc… ALL had no conviction recorded, good behaviour bond for 6 months, NO FINE. The only person who got something was some rich dude who was doing 104 in a 60 zone, and he got a $880 fine with 6 months license suspension. That's it. A dude with a massive record was allowed to apply for his license again after three years of not having it, despite being in jail, convicted of multiple drink driving offenses, conduct that endangered someone's life, driving into a tree, getting caught on drugs and driving… man. You'd get off no problem.
- meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 10:11
  
  Seems like going to court will let get me off the hook. Unfortunately I doubt I'll be able to do so unless I buy another return flight which would exceed the fine :(
lplau on 10/03/2017 - 09:07

+2

You don't always have to go to court.
Sometimes you can just write into them and they can change it into a Warning.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?document_id=10369

The key to get an official warning is to admit that you were wrong and that you have learnt and will not do it again.

Works for most things except for running a red light…
- meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 10:10
  
  Ok thanks! I was wondering if I should admit fault or not when writing in. Guess I'll do so.
  - lplau on 11/03/2017 - 19:28
    
    For a official warning to be successful you must admit fault. Or else they will think you haven't learned and deny the request.
MementoMori on 10/03/2017 - 09:32

Question (sorry if it's already been asked)

Is the Aussie Learners Licesnse valid? (i.e. has it expired?)

I'm unsure of the expiry date, but pretty sure a 7 year old Learners has expired, and therefore not a valid license, which could not take precedence over your Singo lic?

(Or are they valid for 10 years?)
- meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 10:08
  
  Yea its valid till 2020. 10 years.
FittyFitty on 10/03/2017 - 11:13

-1

Should'a, would'a, could'a doesn't cut the mustard; you should have made sure to have understood the rules before taking to the road. People take to pleading stupidity in court too lightly…
- ojm on 10/03/2017 - 12:13
  
  He has a valid driver a licence from the country where he lives. Every other resident of Singapore can come here and drive with no issues.
  - CLoSeR on 10/03/2017 - 13:15
    
    According to the state of Victoria he is a L plater; he has an local license which changes everything and makes the situation very different than any tourist.
hell0 on 10/03/2017 - 13:34

-2

If I were the OP I would have said 'The Indigenous Australians do not recognise the unlawful invasion of their lands' and would have bundled up the police officer in your car and imprisoned him for 5 years in your home as punishment for his involvement in the on-going invasion.
lookwithin on 10/03/2017 - 18:02

-1

Perhaps you can argue that the International/Singapore Drivers License (got it in 2011) overrides the Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010). So in reality, the Victoria learners permit (which is no longer valid) does not mean anything since it has been superseded.

In addition, if you can prove that you are on a holiday (for less than 3 mths), then you do not need to hold an Australian license.

And since you have a full drivers license, you do not need to display a L plate.
PurpleWinter on 11/03/2017 - 01:00

-1

Go to court. That's an easy win…
Finde on 11/03/2017 - 08:43
If you read the legislation it's pretty clear cut.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…

S. 18A(2) amended by No. 5/2016 s. 36(Sch. 1 item 2).

(2) A person who is requested to produce for inspection his or her driver licence document or learner permit document by anyone referred to in section 59(1)(a) must not produce a non‑Victorian licence or permit held by the person that does not authorise the person to drive a motor vehicle on a highway.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

Because you hold a Victorian learners permit, you're international license means nothing, and it is against the law to produce it.
Qroozn on 11/03/2017 - 15:29

Why not CANCEL your vic licence?
- [Deactivated] on 11/03/2017 - 17:43
  
  I'm wondering if it will still matter as you had "previously" held an Australian license or if the records will still be held in the system.
  
  Also would probably mean that the "victorian license supercedes all others" is moot for temporary residents.
  - Qroozn on 11/03/2017 - 18:57
    
    'Tis a bit late for this offence (unless dumb is played). But surely a "cancelled" license is no longer valid (but judge.. I thought my license Had already been cancelled… how can I be on my ls for 7 yrs?)
meantolive on 03/05/2017 - 14:39

UPDATE

Just would like to update you on what has happened.
I wrote an email to Civic Compliance and they replied about 3 weeks ago advising me that they are reviewing my case.
I have still yet to hear from them so fingers crossed.
I would like to thank everybody here for your advise and support. Ozbargain is a great community, a pity that Cheapcheaplah (Ozbargain affiliate) isn't that strong yet.
I shall post another update once I hear from Civic Compliance.
- [Deactivated] on 03/05/2017 - 16:42
  
  Good luck !
Baysew on 31/01/2019 - 15:39

I shall post another update once I hear from Civic Compliance

Any updates as promised?
- meantolive on 31/01/2019 - 17:36
  
  +3
  
  Apologies for not updating. They refused to budge and I had to pay.
  Went back to Australia last year and one of the first things I did was to go to Vicroads to convert my license. Won't ever happen again.
- meantolive on 31/01/2019 - 17:40
  
  +1
  
  To further add on, they replied via email which didn't even address my argument.
  In short, they said to pay up or next escalation would be attending court.

Infringement. Vic Licence Precedes International.

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