What to do - property nightmare.

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  Rumstein on 26/04/2017 - 09:00

  +2

  Why are you paying the bills?
  At the very least, move everything you own either out, or into your own room and lock it, then cancel all power, internet, water, etc (or if they are for some reason in his name, unattach your account from them).

  Offer him the "reasonable amount" for his half. Though I get the impression you don't really have the money to do this, and he is not accepting to buy your half because he currently has essentially the entire house for half price, and with no desire to change that he doesn't need to fork out the money.

  You need to stop being a pushover though and actually DO something.

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  ggkfc on 26/04/2017 - 09:13

  Just sell out and take your money

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  lint on 26/04/2017 - 10:54

  +1

  How did your brother manage to pay his half without a mortgage if he works two days a week?

  You're being too soft. When you were living there it doesn't matter what he says, you're allowed to have guests over. It's your own freaking house, LOL.

  But you say you paid for the TV and all that. Go over and take everything you own. If you don't have anywhere to put it, rent some storage space.

  Cancel all the bills in your name if you're not living there. The only thing you need to pay as joint owner is council fees and fixed water. Your brother has to pay the usage.

  And lastly, if you're not living there and he's snooping on your mail, you shouldn't be having mail sent there. Change your address to your GF's address.

  Have you offered to sell your share of the property to him?

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  vid_ghost on 26/04/2017 - 10:54

  +3

  My friend was in the exact identical situation as you but in his case he had purchased 50% without a mortgage (paid cash in full for his half) and his partner took out a loan for their half much like yourself.. 50/50 tenants in common.

  They both sort legal assistance as they were emotionally unhappy with each other and couldn't agree to anything. It took 9 months but in the end they resolved it with my friend paying out his partners share of the property

  One single court appearance was going to cost $50,000 EACH (not including solicitor fees already paid) if they wanted to take it that far and neither wanted to waste the money, Sensibility won in the end.

  This is how they resolved the issue.

  • My friend provided serial independent property valuations and an average value for the place was made. He offered 50% of the amount
  • They responded with their own property valuation and countered with a higher offer for silly reasons like work hours spent during renovations. In this case THEY WERE NOT happy with 50% they wanted more.
    *In the end my friend had to bite the bullet and pay a little more then 50% to get them to agree to the buyout. ( well worth getting it finished ) This was the reason it took so long.

  You may really only have a few options

  • Try and talk him into a sale or a pay out that is closer to 50% you may need to take a little less then 50%.
  • pay the $50,000 each in court to force a sale otherwise he will pretty much live there forever or until he is ready to move out.

  *Once he receives his first letter from a solicitor he may be more inclined to negotiations. They can be pretty intimidating.

  Do not in any way abandon the property because if you do he essentially becomes your tenant and landlord rules kick in. You can not legally move back in.

  Make sure you have your mail, belongings and are paying bills
  One bill should be enough like internet as no landlord would pay a tenants internet connection for them)
  Paper copies of bills along with home loan and drivers license address to prove to the police you are also a tenant who resides there if one day he decides to change the locks and toss out your stuff to the sidewalk. You will still have a way to get back in.

  Aus post has a feature to redirect bills from that address to your other one if you are annoyed at him opening your mail. The key to this feature is that the bills will still be labeled with the property's address as PROOF you live there :) its sneaky but recommended. only change is that the envelope will have a redirected sticker with your other address. Toss that away :)

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    sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 14:02

    +1

    In this instance, money actually doesnt seem to be the deciding factor (although he is greedy) - he wants time to find a place at his own pace and he wants to feel like he isnt being rushed into a decision (also because he cant afford to buy on his own)..I cant find any incentive for him to sell as in the end he doesnt want to rent, but needs me to fund the unit so he can live in it.

    I agree regarding court costs and lawyers - i spoke to a few and they were literally salivating at this case, but im at the point of just engaging them to finalise this headache.

    Also agree about moving things out as this is abondonment and he becomes sole tenant/landlord as you mentioned. the law is so retarded.

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      SpaceFrog on 27/04/2017 - 13:42

      There are 2 ways to go about it

      1) The legal way
      2) The diplomatic way

      The legal way can be harsh, and you might never talk to your brother again.

      The Diplomatic way will require alot of time and patience, but your kids will have a well adjusted uncle that imparts his wisdom and helps them maintain their mind and body in this modern world we live in.

      You have to try your best to see the world through your brother's eye.

      He has worked hard to afford half a Sydney property. He works 2 days a week, because he has burnt himself out, and now is trying to heal his mind and body, so that he can live a long and peaceful life. It might seem selfish but it's his way of not going crazy, and in turn not driving everyone around him crazy. If you can't understand this, then this is where the conflict comes from.

      Life changing decsions are very stressful, and affect him 10X as much as you. Try and help him, but not push him. If he says he will move out if he finds another place, then make it happen.

      Look around for affordable options that he can move into. Don't oversell any options. Find 2-3 places that suit, and let him make the decision.

      Think about the transition process, what will he need? a place to stay in the interim? Extra money? Work out the money you save by not going through the courts, and offer your brother some more money. Don't explicity say how you got to that figure. Just say that you understand his currently financial situation, and that you know extra cash will help the transition process.

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        [Deactivated] on 27/04/2017 - 14:54

        The diplomatic way described is ineffable.

        Saving money by not going through courts? That's like counting how much you make by shopping the sales.

        Offering a parasite more money? Should also offer him more weed.

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  jinx83 on 26/04/2017 - 11:13

  +2

  I think no matter what reasoning or logic you explain to him, he's going to be unreasonable.
  Just do everything by the law. If he's treating you that way, don,t be afraid to take him to court.
  Plus get him off the pot that might make his brain work.

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  Hirolol on 26/04/2017 - 12:21

  +1

  No win no pay lawyers, i hear they actually try their ass off to get you a win, otherwise, you guessed it, no pay!

  also please update on the situation if/when there is new news!
  Thanks OP and good luck!

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  cannedhams on 26/04/2017 - 12:57

  Dear OP,

  Its possible to sever a joint tenancy, and in fact quite straightforward.

  Also, I would speak to your lawyer (or research this yourself) about appointing a statutory trust. That is typically what is done in the case of very serious disputes between co-tenants. However, just the application fee alone is going to cost you significantly.

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  ugoagogo on 26/04/2017 - 14:25

  Say you've been in a gay incestious marriage for the past two years and it's not working anymore. You will have to sell your assets and split the proceeds.

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  Dr Prepper on 26/04/2017 - 15:16

  +2

  Same here. I had a matter where the other co-owner never showed up and our client was granted a costs order. You don't even need a lawyer for s66G application just go see the duty registrar, if your brother is unlikely to show up to Crt. She'll help you complete your forms.

  The duty registrar is available from 9.30am to 4.30pm Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays). The duty registrar's interview room is located in the Supreme Court Registry, Level 5 of the Courts Building, Queens Square Sydney. Tickets to see the duty registrar are issued from a machine near the door to the registry on Level 5.

  http://www.supremecourt.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/sco2_facili…

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    sydsm on 27/04/2017 - 12:19

    brilliant…thank you for this.

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  orly on 26/04/2017 - 15:42

  Have you even met your brother before?

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  [Deactivated] on 26/04/2017 - 15:44

  He sounds like adam sandler in big daddy

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    GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 18:21

    Sounds like adam sandler - period. :-D

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      [Deactivated] on 26/04/2017 - 19:57

      good point :)

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    endotherm on 26/04/2017 - 20:29

    A cross between Adam Sandler and Sheldon Cooper.

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  bargainshunter on 26/04/2017 - 15:51

  Firstly, you need to change the joint tenancy to tenant in common, so if you die, he doesn't own your share! It shouldn't have to pay stamp duty nor there should be any tax consequences, as you are changing it to 50/50 share.

  Secondly, you should never do joint investment with someone, if you can agree with the person, or think that person could be a pain in the a**.

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    GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 18:23

    Secondly, you should never do joint investment with someone, if you

    … haven't done the legal paperwork to protect yourself, not matter how great you get on with each other.

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  Turd on 26/04/2017 - 16:30

  How can he not work and buy a property/house outright, abiet half a house. yet you are living life struggling and trying to pay a mortage half a house.

  Did he sell drugs and get rich in a previous life?

  Unless he ozbargained hard and saved heaps and finally able to buy sydney house properties. abiet half a house.

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    GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 18:24

    He answered this earlier.

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  qwerty on 26/04/2017 - 17:23

  Your stuff is still in the house so you cant claim you moved out and the court may find in his favour because of it .

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  James987 on 26/04/2017 - 17:25

  +1

  This is what I would do…

  1) see a lawyer and know your rights (most important, don't worry about the $$$)
  2) move back in with your GF and rent her place out.
  3) get rid of all your things that make his life comfortable
  4) call cops when he smokes his pot
  5) call tax dept and report his cash income

  You have been a push over and need to man up…

  Lets see how he likes them apples. He will want to sell up if you persist and stick to your guns.

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    GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 18:53

    Most of these are revenge, only serve to inflame it, and will make the OP appear an idiot in the eyes of any court (if later required). It creates an enemy that will fight back at all costs, illogically, not using their brain any longer. Which he obviously does do right now, because he's manipulated the OP out of the property, into financial stress, yet in a way that makes it seem it's entirely the OP's own decision. Revenge and antagonism just drags the process sideways, which is a path will they will both will have to return along first, before going forward. It only serves to makes what could be a cold but quick process more difficult, more stressful, more hateful, and drag it out indefinitely… It sounds like a good plan - but only when it's not you living it.

    Be sensible, calm, honest, non-emotional - facts only. Lay out your questions and statements beforehand designed to get clear admission which you record for later if needed, even if only to clearly state in writing later: "On (date) I said this to you (where you now type the exact words - don't mention the recording yet even if legal in your state), I also explained to you why. You said this. You do that. You haven't worked with me, made me unwelcome in a home I 50% own, but refused to allow me to mitigate my costs by allowing someone to rent my room from me, thus creating an (unbearable?) financial burden on me and stress on my relationship with x. The situation is all in your favour with you receiving all the benefits. I'm not receiving even remotely my reasonable use or enjoyment of the property I half own. Therefore I now wish to sell. I will not accept another solution. It's time to work with me to achieve this within a sensible time frame of x months. I plan to have the property valued at my expense by a quantity surveyor. I will also present you with xyz (whatever the solicitor comes up with) for you to sign that will allow the sale of the property at not less than x% of the fair market value determined by the quantity surveyor. Everything I have requested is fair and reasonable. You now have a choice. You can either work with me, or you can choose to continue to fight me on this. In which case I will begin further legal action. I'm already in contact with a solicitor who deals with these matters and has explained the huge financial cost to us both. However I'm already going backwards anyway, so can only gain.

    Something like this anyhow, that the GOOD solicitor recommended from that site I mentioned, will word with unemotional plain cold hard fact. Say it to the solicitor: "I just want plain facts to him, without emotion or exaggeration, so he knows he's already lost to do anything else other than the shortest, cleanest way." Doing this defeats most bullies early, instead of them thinking they're fighting some great cause, because the only thing they hate losing more than control over other people, is (more of) their own money.

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      xfiledavid on 26/04/2017 - 20:23

      +1

      then take a dump on his bananas

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      James987 on 27/04/2017 - 20:41

      You make some good points, but I would still make his life a misery. Ringing the police and the tax dept is going to irritate him and show that you are no longer a push over. He needs to see this or you will continue to be his football…

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  GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 19:04

  +1

  Just wanted to add… Judges like things laid out nice and simple, clear and reasonable - so they don't have to think too hard because they have to wade through so much of people's irrelevant finger-pointing garbage before making a decision. Everything in simple written form that can be presented later, along with how the brother responded, makes it easy for the judge to make a decision. If they see you've been perfectly reasonable, have followed good record keeping, whereas the brother has been unreasonable, controlling, has nothing to present except personal antagonism and whining in court - guess who the judge is most likely to side with.

  Re-read what I've typed. Because while I may not be spot-on with everything, it comes from someone that's fought in court and experienced it. Make it an easy decision for the court - even if you don't get that far - clear and simple all the way means if he has any sense he'll realise early on he will only lose more by dragging it out.

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  SpaceNinja on 26/04/2017 - 19:20

  You just need to leave the victim mindset and dominate him like a m_therf_cker.

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  JimmyF on 26/04/2017 - 20:27

  your brother is a d!ck…. stand up to him.

  You went in 50/50, you get 50/50 regardless of the loan you are paying. So get that out of its head right now.

  As you're not allowed to rent the space, then advise him you have moved out. You will leave the room empty not to be used as its 'yours', but from this point on you will only be paying half the insurance/rates/etc.

  All water/power/gas/internet will need to be paid by him

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  Bargain Slut on 26/04/2017 - 23:35

  +1

  I have previously sold properties subject to Section 66G orders, the most recent one only a month ago, I have not extensively dealt with the lead up process.

  Yes there are legal costs and yes, you have to then pay the costs of the Trustee(s), the costs of the trustee can vary significantly based on the amount of work required to achieve a sale. If you decide to go this route I can advise you of the potential costs, however, this would only be rough guide.

  Typically smart people start to play ball pretty quickly because they are only reducing their own share of the property. You might cop some legals but the costs to realise the property including the trustee's costs are likely to be borne equally by each of you.

  If this place is realisable for $1.1M and you bought in for say $700k, and total costs of the sale including legals, real estate and trustee come to $60,000 ($20k each x 3) you might at worst have to fork out $40k from your share. You may at worst have to cop the legal bill the rest would be split. If he doesn't contest then it's an easier process but you're also more likely to be paying your own fees in that instance. You're still looking at banking $170k.

  Suck it up and go and see an actual lawyer, one who has dealt with this, get the ball rolling with emails or paperwork you can substantiate. Make it clear that unless he agrees to sell this is the path you will go down, so you have documented evidence of his resistance and your efforts to reach a suitable remedy. Call a real estate and say you're thinking of selling and want a price guide so you can consider it further, they'll give you a free estimate.

  TBH given the massive jump in property prices it's a small price to pay to rid yourself of the problem. There's better places to live if you want to smoke weed and relax all day than capital cities (which I am assuming based on the alleged value of this 2br unit) aka Newcastle, Wollongong or any other coastal suburb with a decent population.

  Do your research, be pre-prepared and try find someone who'll give you a free consult - if you ultimatelyrequire someone to act as trustee, I know some people.

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  pantsparty on 27/04/2017 - 12:36

  Get a lawyer. Ozbargain is not able to help you here.

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  woodwa on 27/04/2017 - 13:33

  Seriously there is a lot of people here suggesting lawers.. I disagree!

  Find a good time to talk to him. Coming from an ex stoner there is simple ways to get his ass into gear.

  explain that you're going to make some changes if he doesn't come to the party. give him 2days(non work, week days) to deal with. On the morning of day 1 call him before he gets smashed in the morning(at the "early" hour of 8am) to remind him of his job.

  the changes need to be simple.

  1.You taking everything you own including the debatable times.. (eg a joint purchase of a PS3)
  2.Disconssecting everything under your name
  3.and the final one Taking him off your estate(so your 50% of the property will go to cousin Vinnie)

  His Job:
  The caveat is you need him to pull his finger out on that first day.. His only job is to contact a real estate agent to sell or rent the property out.(and you make sure you're there to push it along with super positivity)

  Keep up your sleeve alternative #1 he goes to rehab and you move in with the GF.

  If you can get him here.. then focus on getting the house ready etc etc

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  Miker82 on 27/04/2017 - 22:12

  +1

  There has been some sound advice here in some of the preceding comments.

  First and foremost, obtain legal advice if you have any doubt as to the options open to you. Nothing anyone says here can rise higher than general comment and cannot reflect an assessment of your case or operate as specific advice.

  I would in any event recommend that you try all possible avenues to resolve this without the need to litigate. Every dollar you spend litigating, and every dollar you pay to a trustee if one is appointed to effect a sale, is less money which comes back to you in the end. Litigation is stressful, time consuming, distracting and unpredictable and if possible, best avoided.

  For what it's worth (and this is by way of general comment and is not advice on your specific situation), an application to appoint a statutory trustee should not (if as appears likely it proceeds unopposed) cost more than approximately $15,000 plus GST. It is a relatively simple application commenced by summons with an affidavit in support, and can be heard (if unopposed) shortly after filing and be dealt with in less than half a day. If opposed, of course, costs will be higher.

  I would caution against a "no win no fee" lawyer - prima facie a co-owner should be entitled to an order for sale, and if one proceeds on the basis that the lawyers will be paid no matter what as the order will likely be made, then you should choose the lawyers you are most comfortable with.

  You should apply a similar mindset to choosing a potential trustee. You should ask for an eatimate of fees from a person experienced in effecting sales as a statutory trustee. If all goes smoothly then this should be less material, however, if things do not go smoothly (your brother damages the property or refuses to leave, for example) it may be of benefit to you to have a more experience appointee.

  Best of luck.

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  chadnchady on 28/04/2017 - 09:33

  Haven been in similar situations before.

  When going into a joint purchase, always have a written agreement (preferably witnessed at the solicitor's) stating the rules & conditions of the joint purchase. The rules should address scenarios when one party decides to share their share down the track when the other parties still want to hold on to the property.

  In your situation, you guys should obtain independent property valuation reports of the value of your property and pick the price from the middle (to be fair). From there he is given two options, to either sell the property and split the profit, or if he doesn't want to sell, he needs to buy you out at the value of your share calculated from that independent valuation.

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  [Deactivated] on 19/05/2017 - 16:36

  see : War of the Roses

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