Stay or Leave? Love The Work but Getting Paid 20% under Median

• 

  captobvious on 25/04/2017 - 22:24

  +2

  Best way to get experience is to move around. Would this tech startup you work at give you the opportunity to be an accidental billionaire like Paul allen?

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 00:04

    That's what I gathered from whirlpool in terms of experience.. but I've got plenty of opportunities in the current company to experience different industries. Albeit.. the experience will be technical at my level for awhile..

    Doubt it will give me that opportunity to be like Paul Allen. Don't have any equity and I doubt I'll get offered any anytime soon

• 

  scrimshaw on 25/04/2017 - 22:31

  Have you looked at how much you will stand to gain if you quit and went into a grad role… will a grad role elsewhere actually pay better, or worse?
  Might have to analyse the pros and cons of leaving so soon.

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 00:18

    Yup. Grad roles in most med-large size firms will pay ~65k i.e. the median.

    Pros: Capitalise on the earning potential which will help me get a house sooner. Potentially improve how CV looks by having a more well known company in employment history. Also I'd get to mix around with people my age… (which would be a cool bonus since everyone at work has a fair age gap to mine… not that it matters too much since they're great colleagues & we get along and all)

    Cons: Leaving in less than 1.5 years may make CV look bad. More red tape in larger companies. Slightly slower growth in skills and experience.

    • 

      scrimshaw on 26/04/2017 - 01:10

      +1

      So it's a trade off between earning less money, having a less prestigious employer (brand), versus earning more money but potentially having a bad-looking resume, and working in large companies as a grad means there's generally less autonomy and more kowtowing to company policies.

      IMO there's no right /wrong answer. Just go with whatever you're comfortable with. I personally would be afraid that potential employers will see me as a short-term employee if they see that on my résumé that I only worked for a firm for less than 1.5 years, although as a fresh grad you might actually have a valid excuse.

• 

  outlander on 25/04/2017 - 22:54

  +1

  Not sure I get how this works, but can't you ask for a pay rise any time? Go back and ask for more, citing whatever reasons that sound most compelling.
  If you don't get anywhere, express disappointment, but don't quit. Apply for jobs elsewear, and use that as evidence to show your worth at the next negotiation. If that fails, then leave, but only once you've secured another position. The only reason to threaten to leave a job is if the company is having problems, and your departure could be the straw that breaks the camels back

  Some people reading your story might say 'hey, its a startup, they're a new company they can't afford much give them a break' but isn't that what stock options are for? To trade the lower initial pay you receive for a share of the business's success? Sounds like they just want to use you for labor at the cheapest rate they can get it. They may even be thinking of firing you and replacing you with another grad if your pay gets any higher

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 00:34

    I have tried negotiating when they sat me down to discuss my first appraisal, but that failed. They didn't budge at all and I expressed my disappointment. I could try asking for a pay rise in a few months time after I've delivered a few more notable projects/outcomes. Also stock options is something I didn't try to negotiate for (didn't think of it at the time).. will have to give it a go but once again I'm not very optimistic based on the last negotiation I had with management. Will let you know in a few months!

    Thing is, they've been recently acquired by a larger company and they've been very successful in the past year and will have lots more success in the future (plenty of projects with big international companies lined up). So it's not like the company's books are in the red (confirmed this fact with management).

    Not sure how they'd be squeezing me for cheap labour as I know they've invested quite a bit of time and money into my development as well. Which kinda left me confused on why they wouldn't try to give any retention incentives since they'd lose out on their investment if I leave :/ Don't think they are trying to replace me as they've expressed that they don't want to lose me on several occasions.

• 

  Ughhh on 25/04/2017 - 23:14

  +2

  legal minimum wage of 52k

  Bit of a exaggeration isn't. I'd imagine it would be insult to people who are actually literally on minimum wage and/or have been job hunting for months and months and still unemployed.

  • 

    Sadkid on 25/04/2017 - 23:58

    +2

    Probably should have been more specific - it is the legal minimum wage for my profession according to the industry standards.

    Not trying to grief others in a less fortunate situation, my apologies if it came across that way.

    • 

      Ughhh on 26/04/2017 - 00:02

      So if you were paid $50k, you can get Fairwork involved and sue your employer?

      • 

        Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 00:10

        I'd believe so according to Fairwork's Professional Employee's Award

      • 

        crentist on 26/04/2017 - 02:32

        +1

        @Sadkid: are you saying you are a Level 2 Experienced Professional? because if im reading it right, that document allows up to 4 years of graduate training to reach that $55k. 1 year out of uni, you are still considered a graduate, and if you are at pay point 1.2 thats a minimum wage of $48,768. i imagine where exactly you sit on that scale is something to discuss with your employer

        where are you getting that 65k figure, and how accurate is that amongst the people you studied with?
        i worked as a grad for a big engineering consultancy in sydney in 2012, which paid 55k to grads back then. i doubt they changed it very much since then, definitely not to 65k anyway. and there wasnt much increase for the first few years at least, and everyone is still considered a grad for those first few years

        i heard 65k back then too and expected to get that, but i didnt really see it that much around me. so 55k didnt seem like much to me either, but i knew people getting under 50, and i was offered 50 by a huge pharma company which i turned down for the extra 5 (wasnt worth it). it varies a lot anyway, but engineers australia has a grad salary calculator that puts 55 at median for some fields/locations.

        i guess my point is, some people do get paid more and its easy to focus on them, but theres plenty of jobs that pay right in your ballpark. even at big companies. even for engineers.

        what field are you in anyway? might not be a bad time to switch to a higher paying stream

      • 

        Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 13:39

        @crentist: yes, my company evaluates me to be a Level 2 Experienced professional. After thorough discussion with management - it was affirmed that it matches up to my current level of responsibilities and skills. Definitely not at Level 3 yet, and I'll need at least another year of experience for that.

        In response to your wages, with inflation adjusted, you were earning a 2017-equivalent of ~60k base which tends to be the minimum in the median range. I got the 65k figure from peers who work in a variety of larger and med firms. A few from smaller firms obviously got paid less around my salary range. Most of my peers and I are closely acquainted and i doubt they'd fudge the figures. We all agree salary transparency is the way to go to for our general awareness and to avoid exploitation.

        Thanks for the source to engineers Australia's grad salary calculator. With inflation adjusted for the 2014 data, the median would be ~63k for electrical engineers in Melbourne.

        I'm in the electrical engineering/IT field. Most of my IT skills were picked up from my time here and they compliment my area of interest in electrical actually.

        By stream, do you mean a different stream of engineering like civil or etc? Or are you referring to a sub-discipline/sub-stream within electrical like comms, circuit design, etc?

• 

  [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 23:19

  +3

  so much to read, i didnt, i just voted

• 

  [Deactivated] on 26/04/2017 - 00:48

  +1

  Is the current role teaching you new things you can learn in your career path? is there room for promotion?
  If you see this a valuable and it is being offered, you can stay. If there is nothing new to learn and you think you can grow your skills and salary elsewhere, then go out and try. You dont need to be between jobs to apply for a new one.

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 11:40

    There are quite a few things I can learn from staying for the next 2-3 years if I chose to. Promotion to the next job title that is equivalent of a senior engineer would be many many years away (7-8 years ++ I believe).

    I could see my skills grow elsewhere albeit at a slower rate which I guess I don't mind as i would capitalise on the bigger earlier earnings to help my dream of getting married and getting a mortgage.

    Definitely applying for new jobs now and seeing what comes my way.. but I want to be aware of all the options before making a decision. Hence why I'm drawing wisdom from the ozB community :)

    Do you think it's worth staying despite low wages for exp, despite no promise in the near future (1-2 years) for a pay rise/promotion? Or do you think it may be better to get similar exp elsewhere for better wages but learn slightly slower?

• 

  enzioFirenze on 26/04/2017 - 07:19

  +1

  not to point the obvious but your increment is ~5%, that's pretty good I reckon although like you said, the initial salary might have been the problem!

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 13:50

    Yeah I think if I negotiated a higher starting salary and had ~5% increment, I wouldve been pretty happy with that. I guess desperation and short sightedness got the better my younger self one year ago..

• 

  mskeggs on 26/04/2017 - 07:48

  +7

  I bet there are plenty of people reading this who would love to have your problem - doing work you love at a company with bright prospects getting lots of experience that will make you more employable elsewhere.

  I can't help but tell you that most people do work they don't like, in places that are boring with limited opportunities.
  I recognise that hearing about other people's pay being higher than your own can be frustrating, but it does seem that you are very focused on what is a pretty small amount in the scheme of things. Or to put it another way - if I offered you a boring job with no prospects, but at the median pay scale, would you not be considering taking a $10k pay cut to pursue a job where you love the work and have the opportunity to get better experience?

  A couple of other points:
  - You just got a 6% pay rise. While I agree it would be lovely to get more, wage inflation is low everywhere now.
  - You are assuming that other higher paying roles will be readily available. In my experience, employers pay the minimum they can to get staff, so higher paying roles ore often less attractive in conditions besides pay.
  - You have 13 months of industry experience. It is unlikely other employers will be dazzled by this, and very likely they will ask you why you left your current role. How do you think saying it was a great job, but you were money hungry will be viewed by an interviewer?
  - I notice you haven't talked about whether you are doing a good job, and whether you are delivering good value to your employer. 50% of workers earn under the median wage remember. Being great at your job is a pretty good way to justify pay rises, much more that arguing the average employee earns more.

  • 

    bobbified on 26/04/2017 - 09:34

    +1

    50% of workers earn under the median wage remember

    Exactly my thoughts - if everyone was earning $65K, then the median wouldn't be that figure.

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 11:33

    Thanks for your insight. Lots of valid points to consider. Definitely don't mind if my pay was under the industry median, but it would be nice to be close to it. It's hard to work with the peace of mind that I'm sucker getting taken for a ride + getting enormous coin sucked out of me at the end of the day. It's more so of a principle rather than getting more cash at the end of the day.

    I recognise that it is a 6% increase, however at that current rate of growth I will be severely underpaid at the end of 2-3 years of work.. (I would get approx 60-62k by then compared to my peers who would be well closer to 80k) especially with no promise of a significant pay rise at the end of my grad role, it is concerning. So currently my peers would be earning on average 15k+ more than me.

    Based on my homework, there many grad positions out there (>20 large companies and APS) that pay at least 60k as base. Most larger firms offer 65k as base from my research and testimony of peers who work in those firms. Does that count as readily available? :/

    By median pay, Im referring to the industry median of 65k in engineering, not nationwide median for all jobs. By this point in time, most grads with 1 year exp would be close to 70k in wages (APS and tier 1 firms). I do understand that I can appear money hungry but at the same time I don't want to be a sucker and taken advantage of? But having my CV look bad is definitely a point of concern. But I guess I'll need to weigh that up..

    Performance wise I haven't been a spectacular ace or anything.. but doing above average and bringing decent value. the company has stated I'm of value to them and they don't want to lose me on several occasions.

    Question is: at what point is it considered that I'm getting taken for a ride? And would employers look down on people moving away from companies exploiting them?

    • 

      mskeggs on 26/04/2017 - 13:04

      +1

      I guess part of my response is coloured by my own experience. My first role out of uni was for a start up with a starting salary 40% below what my peers got paid.
      But it was a great job, where I learned lots and it set me up for a career where I ended up earning 50% more than those peers.
      But if I had spent all my time worrying about being exploited, I would have ended up taking a short term pay bump at a less interesting, and ultimately less rewarding career path.
      I realise when you are young $15k seems like a huge amount of cash, but in a few years you will conclude it is peanuts compared to the cost of working a job you don't enjoy.

      But you can't put an old head on young shoulders, so by all means go join the APS and get a predictable job with capped earnings and limited opportunities so you don't feel exploited. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

      • 

        Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 14:35

        Appreciate your transparency and your perspective from your experience.

        I have considered the "tough it out now and reap the benefits later" approach but needed some affirmation from those who have done so and whether it paid off. Clearly it has in your case and it definitely gives me the assurance that I would still benefit in the long run if I decide to stick it out. And I agree the numbers now don't mean much now if one makes proportionally more in the later stage of their career due to a great foundation.

        Definitely leaning less on joining the APS if I decide to leave. And thinking twice now about the pros and cons of joining a grad program in another private firm.

  • 

    outlander on 26/04/2017 - 12:09

    +1

    Sounds like you are making the 'be grateful for what you have' argument

    This is true OP, if you want to be happy be happy. Nothing is ever finished. There is always something wrong. If you focus on whats wrong instead of what's going right you will always be dissatisfied. Engineering as a profession is one with a disproportionate pay scale, so you are always going to feel like you're building pyramids and being payed in butterscotch candies, so if you can't learn to be happy now, the extra money won't fix things later

    However this is a separate argument to getting paid what you think you deserve. In negotiations you need to do the opposite, focus on everything that's going wrong so you have ammunition to blast them with. And you need to find a way to do that without getting angry or losing your cool

    When it comes to money, I imagine a fat, ruthless stupid kid holding it all. I may not feel like I deserve what I'm asking for, but I know I deserve it more than him.

• 

  Limitless on 26/04/2017 - 08:20

  I think you should consider the role good work experience for the next 2 years then reevaluate your situation. I get that you want to buy a house and get married but you literally just walked out of uni 1 year ago….and your situation could be a lot worse. It is standard these days for people to be unemployed for 6 months before landing a job.

  If there are better paid grad jobs out there why didn't you apply for them in the first place? While i was a slave in my first job out of uni i was extremely appreciative for the opportunity the company gave me as my options were limited!

  • 

    Sadkid on 26/04/2017 - 16:40

    Very true, I could be in a worse situation with no job. I am thankful for whatever I've got.

    As in my RTFM version, I think it was out of ignorance and applying a broad brush onto larger private firms for pushing mundane work onto their grads. And at the end of their program, the grads often end up in highly specialised roles, locking them into the company/specific industry. Ive only encountered a handful of grads with a generalist skill set that is applicable across several industries.

    Was pretty adverse to that idea so I applied for other positions. I realise it was foolish ignorance for writing off an idea without even trying.

    Some of my peers have definitely suggested to stick it out for 1-2 years and then reconsider moving as you have mentioned. Will keep that in mind.

• 

  jjjaar on 26/04/2017 - 08:53

  I'm in a similar situation, also in eng, and pay same as you after one year (but includes super). I've decided that the risk of moving and hating what I do is too high.

  I have noticed that moving sideways to other companies is the best way to earn more, but it comes at a risk. While I was a student I worked elsewhere and got paid more than I do now but hated everything.

• 

  poboy on 26/04/2017 - 09:28

  +2

  95% of the time increase wage promises do not materialise. If you take a wage offer from an organisation, then your subsequent raises will be anchored to that offer, as an organisation knows what you will take. Real wage growth is always earned by changing jobs and establishing a new anchor wage.

• 

  Halo375 on 26/04/2017 - 13:37

  +1

  Any wage promise or agreement that isn't written down or emailed to you is pretty much worthless. If you can get another job that pays a lot more and adds to your experience then I would say go for it. Early graduates can move frequently provided you can explain the reasons why to your next employer, in this case your excuse is: "I found a job that better suited my career path and that built my skills in a new area that would broaden my horizons", etc.

  If you leave your current position amicably then potentially you could return in a few years when you have more experience. Don't be afraid to leave your first job, you need to ensure you're getting paid what you're worth - if you continue to worry about your pay then you're not going to enjoy the job very much.

  The decision is up to you - not to us.

• 

  [Deactivated] on 03/05/2017 - 10:53

  +1

  I would say stay for 3 years in total.

  If there is no progression during that time you've got a legitimate justification to future employers "stagnation etc". If you love the job 3 years passes really quick. Are there any big projects on at your company that you can get tacked on to? I believe those are some of the achievements you could get under your belt that would really boost your CV.

  Don't worry about your wages for now, you're still young and if you make the right moves you will definitely be able to provide for your family comfortably at the lifestyle you want.

  Might have to delay kids (if any yet) for the moment but I guess it depends on what you want in life. Average folk cannot get "everything" and usually have to make some sacrifices. Exciting job (not becoming a potato)/ kids etc. I guess you'll have to work that out for yourself.