'Grey market' Microsoft Windows / Office product key deals

mr626 on 12/09/2017 - 08:06
Last edited 12/09/2017 - 08:18

Hi,

Just wanted to seek some clarification on deals that are selling what can be called, at best, 'grey market' product keys for Microsoft products. Essentially, these sellers are getting bulk Microsoft product keys from 'somewhere' (sometimes its volume licensing programs that are being misused, sometimes they are outright stolen) and selling them to people who often don't know any better.

Making the situation worse (in some ways) is that often the keys WILL actually work…for a while. They might work for a month or even longer, but can they suddenly stop working (as in, the product that has been activated with it will need to be activated again with a different key).

Here is a recent example: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/329059 (one user who has tried to pay for a key via paypal got a message saying the seller's paypal account had been banned. Make of that what you will)
Here is one from last year: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/235103 (surprise surprise, this company apparently no longer exists)

There's a few issues I can see with these deals:

  • As I've already posted elsewhere, Microsoft themselves do not offer product keys for sale in this way (despite the sellers claiming otherwise). From this link https://www.microsoft.com/en-au/howtotell/Software.aspx#Digi…

    "With the exception of Product Key Cards distributed with Certificates of Authenticity (COA’s), Microsoft does not distribute products keys as standalone products. If you see a listing on an auction site, online classified ad, or other online page advertising product keys, it’s a good indication that these keys are likely stolen or counterfeit."

  • The sellers of these keys are usually overseas, making it harder to get refunds etc if (when) the keys stop working

  • The prices are under-cutting Australian businesses who are selling proper Microsoft licenses.

Ultimately, people can do what they like- makes no difference to me. I just want to clarify where Ozbargain sits on these kind of deals. If the mods see no problem with these, I'll stop reporting the deals.

Site Discussion

Comments

  • Boshait on 12/09/2017 - 09:00

    Windows codes I have bought on Ebay have worked indefinitely. I assumed they were recycling COAs from scrapped computers.

    • mr626 on 12/09/2017 - 09:03

      Two things:

      -Technically, that isn't really legitimate either. The COAs on computers tend to be OEM licenses which aren't meant to be transferred (not that I care).
      -The sellers in question are selling product keys for things like the latest versions of Windows and Office, doubtful that these are from scrapped computers.

      • Boshait on 12/09/2017 - 17:20

        OK, probably different case. I wanted Windows 7 for my mother a couple of years back so I bought an activation code on ebay and downloaded the media from Digital River. All was good.

  • Speckled Jim on 12/09/2017 - 09:57

    I say buyer beware.
    Copyright holders are probably compiling anomalous license keys. The trigger might be one that reports from an embargoed country. In the US, that's a Federal case.

    For OzB to allow such "deals" is sailing awfully close to warez/keygen territory.

  • KaTst3R on 12/09/2017 - 12:32

    Occasionally, we see deals from Greenmangaming.com and Cdkeys.com in OZB. Both sites are actually banned by moderators in forums like r/gamedeals because of the risk of buying stolen keys. So how do we deal with these sites?

    I dont think we should filter out deals for Microsoft keys offered by websites, it is more of a buyer beware situation. You want cheap deals, you take a bit of risk. I feel if someone is looking for grey keys, they will find a deal anyway, irregardless if it is featured on OZB or not. But private offers using paypal is a no-no.

    • mr626 on 12/09/2017 - 13:47
      +2

      The difference here (when dealing with Microsoft products) is that there is no 'maybe'- product keys being sold in this manner are 100% non-legitimate, since Microsoft explicitly state that they don't resell keys in this way.

      Whereas with (for example) Steam GoG keys for PC games, although there is a risk that you are buying a stolen key there is also a reasonable chance that they are from a legitimate, yet cheaper source.

      As you say, ultimate it's a buyer-beware situation. I'm just not sure that most people appreciate the risks involved in purchasing Microsoft keys this way. They are almost certainly MSDN / Dreamspark keys that aren't intended for distribution, and although they do work and activate fine (most of the time), Microsoft can and do deactivate them when they find out. On https://www.reddit.com/r/microsoftsoftwareswap/ there's plenty of people who have keys that stop working after a while, and its no different for any other seller of Microsoft keys.

      I'm not worried about IT-savvy people buying these keys, it's more the non-tech people that could easily lose out from this sort of deal.

      • KaTst3R on 12/09/2017 - 13:54

        All grey key deals should come with a disclaimer. The moderators would have to make a decision to allow or ban these sort of deals. As I mentioned, if you are after a grey key, you would find it anyway.

        • mr626 on 12/09/2017 - 15:50

          I think allowing the details but with a disclaimer would be a good middle ground. Up to Scotty and the mods as to what they want to do.

  • mskeggs on 12/09/2017 - 20:28

    I don't like them for the ethical issue of financially supporting pirates.
    I don't personally judge copyright infringement, and have infringed myself, but I feel that making cash from the practice crosses the line into something I don't support (yet I would buy a mod chip! Hypocrisy).
    I guess a part of it is that you can pirate for free, and my OzBargain senses tingle at the thought of paying for something I could get of equivalent quality for free.

  • OZB Al on 13/09/2017 - 08:38

    Given that there is no way they could be legitimate in any market I don't see how they would even qualify to be called "grey market". If this is the case it would appear that they are stolen goods, which of course can not be sold here.

    But then I have a legitimate MSDN account (with $200 Azure credit a month), so I'm not the target market, and I'm not going to sell my MSDN keys.

  • mr626 on 13/09/2017 - 10:20
    +2

    Just to add weight what I am trying to say:

    This deal for Microsoft keys was active on here about a year ago (same one that I posted in the OP):
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/235103

    In that deal, the OP insisted that the product keys they were selling were legitimate. Here's a direct quote:

    Just to clear up, we are an Australian limited company, it would be highly illegal for us to sell anything other than the true product we're representing. We guarantee >that exactly what we sell is the real thing. The penalties for doing anything else just aren't worth it!

    We're pretty open too, that if you're not 100% satisfied with the purchase, let us know and we'll give a 100% refund.

    Fast forward to April 2017 and we have https://www.crn.com.au/news/microsoft-australia-smacks-resel…

    Online reseller Moonbox Software has been ordered to pay nearly $1 million in damages to Microsoft Australia for selling illegal software keys.

    Moonbox sold more than 3600 pirated product keys for 17 different Microsoft products on its website, including Windows 10 and Office Home and Business. Moonbox's >website, along with a UK website, were shut down shortly after legal proceedings began.

    The Federal Circuit Court of Australia ordered Moonbox to pay $957,895 in damages to Microsoft Australia, which was comprised of compensation for the infringements >and additional damages for the flagrancy of the offenses.

    Moonbox's four directors were also permanently banned from representing themselves as lawful resellers of Microsoft software.

    Is anyone still not convinced that these sellers are selling illegitimate products?

    • Speckled Jim on 13/09/2017 - 15:49

      Yes, the mods of this site, as you would be aware!

      The argument is the flimsy "it's kind of a grey area, plus in German jurisdiction it's okay". But we're a US proxy, not EU!
      I found that decision and their response startling.

      Still, more rope…

  • Moderatorscotty on 13/09/2017 - 18:26

    Hi all.

    Yes, the OzBargain moderators are aware of those deals and we have also spent quite a bit of time discussing this. OP has reported and TWAM'ed so the mods had to drag this topic out again today. At the end of the day the grey market with questionable license is a grey area and we found it's difficult to have a ruling that cover all cases. Just some principles:

    • Foremost, personally I am AGAINST piracy of intellectual properties, be that software licenses, illegal streaming or torrenting, etc. Many OzBargain moderators share the same view. Pirated software is also listed under banned items on OzBargain.

    • Moderators would not wish to unpublish posts or ban sellers on the assumption that these are pirated software, or accuse the sellers without any solid proof. neil has previous investigated a seller with cheap Windows 10 key on eBay, contacted both eBay and Microsoft. It's actually in fact beyond a community moderator's duty.

      Therefore if you do have proof that certain sellers are selling illegally, we will remove post & ban the seller. If you cannot be sure, contact the owner of the intellectual property (Microsoft in this case) to get them to investigate. We can then ban base on the investigation result.

    • Regarding to deals that involve "hacks" that might infringe terms and conditions set by the owner of the intellectual property, then "buyers beware". If a seller that does it and people have solid proof, then it should not be on OzBargain as it's related to software piracy. For example,

      • Software XYZ is 50% cheaper in SE Asia. However VPN is required for Australians to purchase from legitimate seller. The offender here would be the buyer (OzBargainers). I won't personally encourage it, but the deal itself is okay.

      • Software XYZ is 50% cheaper in SE Asia, but terms and conditions say it cannot be sold to someone in Australia. Now vendor ABC bought some and resell those to OzBargainers as a deal. If the infringement can be proved, then the deal would not be legitimate and should be removed.

    Again, the difficulty is on proving something is illegal, and I do not think OzBargain should be the one bringing them to federal court for trials.

    • mr626 on 13/09/2017 - 19:20

      Thanks Scotty. Was not my intention that anything should be 'dragged out', just seeking clarification. At the time I posted this thread I was not aware of neil's response and investigation to the previous deal.

      Agreed that it is not Ozbargain's or the mods place to be expected to investigate this sort of thing (wouldn't wish that on anyone).

      My own reading of Microsoft's statement about product keys, and the chain of events I posted above relating to a similar seller / deal, made me think that deals selling Microsoft keys might have been a case where the very fact that they were being offered for sale in a certain way was proof enough that they are not legitimate. But, I don't own or run this place and I respect your thoughts and position on such things.

      Thanks for the response, and my apologies if this has taken up an inordinate amount of your / the mods time.

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