28 Degrees Fraudulent Transactions and Their Response

Hi Ozbargainers,

Wanted to get your opinion on this issue.

A few months back, my wife's credit card transaction history displayed a number of ATM cash withdrawals that occurred between June 27 - 29. To add some context, we live in the Eastern suburbs and the withdrawals were made from the Bankstown and Yagoona area totalling $730 inclusive of cash advance and ATM fees.

We called up 28 degrees and explained our situation with the relevant department, emphasising that in the 5 years of using the card we have never made a cash withdrawal. They told us they'll get back to us in 4-6 weeks.

We called up 28 degrees at the start of August for an update and we were told that our case was not ruled in our favour. The reason being was because they knew the PIN code to the credit card in order to withdraw cash from the ATM. We told them we were at work during those days and would not have been able to make a cash withdrawal in Bankstown as we both work in the Sydney CBD. They once again told us to wait 4-6 weeks so that they can continue investigating our case.

We received a call this morning and were told that the withdrawals were made during the times: 9:30pm - 2am and most likely we would have to pay the $730 since we have no evidence to state otherwise. They suggested reporting this to the police and request CCTV footage from the Bankstown Hospital as that was where a $500 cash withdrawal was made on July 27.

At this point, it seems as if it is better to just negotiate a payment plan with 28 degrees and put this behind us. Please share your thoughts.

Thank you.

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Comments

  • In July last year my 28 Degrees card had 4 unauthorised transactions made totaling just over $4700 (my limit was $5000). Those transactions were made in Arizona, England, and 2 from Ireland. I had thought their "Fraud Secure" should've picked it up straight away given I wasn't overseas at the time and those purchase were made on the same day. I called up 28 Degrees and they were very helpful, and everything was sorted out within 10 days; they refunded everything and gave me a new card.

    I know this is quite different from your situation and I'm sorry to hear that it's happened to you, but in my experience 28 Degrees were very professional with their response and dealt with my situation rather quickly. If I were you, I would probably go to the police first, and then contact 28 Degrees with the relevant police records.

    • I agree. From my personal experience half a decade ago, I report a fraudulent transaction and it was dealt with professionally and everything refunded. Because of this experience, I was very positive when this had happened to my wife and assumed they would get back to us in our favour.

    • I don't know which is scarier
      My card is NOT 28 degrees, but that is besides the point, in my case.

      I hardly ever use my c.card; but made a purchase from a NZ supplier.
      It was the ONLY purchase made on that card for months… so it was pretty easy to spot the transaction, and didn't make another transaction for another month after.

      Suddenly, out of the blue, my bank texts me about an unusual transaction for $3700.00 worth of gym equipment. (I should mention here that I'm over 60)
      So… it didn't take a Rocket Scientist to track down the guilty party that reused CC-details.

      Makes me wonder, how many people use their CC to pay for everything, then pay it off?
      Do they troll through every transaction in their Monthly Statement to verify each payment?

      So is the scary thing: CC Fraud; or the fact that my bank can Track my each and every transaction?
      Did I just hear you whisper to yourself… Big Brother?

      • Banks have systems and checks in place to detect fraudulent transactions - they are complex mathematical algorithms and formulas designed to sniff out these sort of things. In my case, because I exclusively use that card overseas and online purchases only, it might be a bit harder to detect a fraudulent transaction because of my spending pattern. In your case Dazza610, it is much easier to detect fraudulent transactions because of your spending pattern.

        I have 4 active CCs and I am one of those people who use their cards to pay for most things and then pay it off pretty much straight away; and I do scan through every transaction in my statement from each of my CC-issuing banks at least 5 or 6 times a week (or when I'm bored at work… which is often!) to verify each payment. I know exactly where my money goes for each of my cards. I've only ever had fraudulent transactions happen to me twice in the last 12 years, and each time I caught it before the bank notified me. I think it's good practice to take some ownership and responsibility over your accounts and not just relying on the bank's systems and checks.

        • I agree. This incident has shown me the harsh reality that I should not blindly assume that credit card companies will bail us out. In future, we are going to keep a close and regular watch on our transaction histories.

        • In the OP's case it is pretty straightforward IMO. Lives in Eastern Suburbs, never done cash withdrawals before, cash withdrawals in Bankstown/Yagoona, OP still has card. It's counterfeit fraud. Case Closed. Most fraud analysts would come to the same conclusion, but perhaps GE have more/other info that they have not shared or perhaps there is a directive to decline all fraud cases upfront to try and win some from cardholders who are too lazy to argue???

      • OK guys…

        Give me a break.

        Like I said, "I'm OVER 60". and not really up on newer, and newer technologies. It seems like there's something better, faster & shinier every day, and it's hard to keep up with the best tech; especially when it becomes obsolete in 6 months (or less).

        That is the reason I subscribe to forums like this…

        Information without criticism (except for some smart-arses).
        Don't get me wrong. I can take a joke.
        Wait 'til you're older (much older). Then you will understand that the joke IS PROBABLY on you.

        I came from an era when TV was the work of the devil.

  • Mate, wouldn't cop that. Even if it was $20.

  • Why can't they request the CCTV from the ATM's the withdrawals took place at?

    Once this is settled I would look for another credit provider, not sure is 28 Degrees is still GE Money but I remember hearing terrible things about them years ago.

    There is no benefit to this card compared to say the Citibank Plus Debit Mastercard (for cash withdrawals overseas or international purchases with nil fees)

    or BankWest Zero Platinum if you need a real credit card with zero foreign fees.

    • From the call this morning, they told us it is not within their power to seek the CCTV footage.

  • Wouldn't accept their answer lodge a complaint/case with the Financial Ombudsman Service here: https://www.fos.org.au/resolving-disputes/before-you-lodge-a...

  • +31 votes

    You are not liable for fraud unless you contributed to it eg. your pin was 1111 or your dob or something.
    DO NOT ACCEPT THIS

    Please contact: https://www.fos.org.au/about-us/what-we-do/

    ATMs also have cameras which will show it wasn't you.

    since we have no evidence to state otherwise.

    The onus is on the bank/issuer/merchant to prove it was you, pins can be stolen too by camera when someone puts a skimmer on an atm.

    Please let me know how this goes as I will cancel my 28 degrees card if you are forced to pay even a cent.

    It's the card issuers's money that was taken, not yours. The issuer can file a police report if they want.

    • +11 votes

      I agree with @fruit. Please let me know the outcome here as this is very worrying. If you are forced to pay (even the 12 week waiting times for a resolution is highly concerning) I will be cancelling too.

      Thanks

    • eg. your pin was 1111 or your dob or something.

      Even if it was, no one knows the PIN, so you would only be liable if you admitted this to them.

      • When i worked in a bank i was told most of the fraudulent transactions made were made by family members or people we are close with.
        PIN numbers are best something completely random and not DOBs or the type that may be guessed.

  • 28 Degrees should be escalating it to the police on your behalf, after all thats what fraud prevention is all about.

    • Incorrect. The victim has to report it. Victim being the cardholder.

      • It's a credit card, the money belongs to 28 Degrees. They're blaming the cardholder instead of figuring out who withdrew money.

        28 Degrees is the victim here.

    • after all thats what fraud prevention is all about

      Incorrect. Fraud prevention is trying to stop it from happening in the first place…

      • How do you think fraud prevention works ? Obviously the police cannot prevent crime from happening, they try to find the perpetrators and hold them accountable for their actions. For the fraudsters to get on the police's radar, they must be reported to the police in the first place.

        If you can shut down a fraudulent organisation that is perpetuating fraud, thats how you prevent fraud from occurring in the future.

        That they are going to somehow prevent fraud from happening at all as you put it "in the first place" is a childish and ridiculous expectation.

        • I think we are thinking on different levels. I'm thinking on the level of an individual bank/institution in terms of the fraud prevention measures they must and do implement. Which is what I used to do at a bank.

          You appear to be thinking along the lines of a perfect world where companies and police have all the time and resources in the world to catch every criminal. Actually, in a perfect world there wouldn't be any fraud to prevent in the first place, but you get what I am saying.

          I agree with you in theory, but in practice (unfortunately) it is not logistically possible and also (as previously mentioned) not the responsibility of the card issuer to report fraud to the police directly. 99% certain if they tried, the police would just tell them to go away.

          What the card issuer does have a responsibility to do, is report fraud to the schemes and they liaise with the police when necessary (as they would have much more collated data to pass onto). This does happen and at times organised crime syndicates do get caught. But to be honest, obviously most of them don't.

          It's just too difficult and police have higher priorities (generally speaking).

  • wow scary. not used overseas but the same state (and close each other)

    • I experienced this once too. My card was used to pay for a motel in Jervis Bay, NSW where I've never been to. I don't live near there too. Funny enough I never used that card (it was a spare card that I only put at home). Reported to CBA and got refund within few business days. They usually only honour refund for Paypass purchase or purchase via quoting card number. They usually won't honour a refund if purchases are made using a PIN.

  • The reason being was because they knew the PIN code to the credit card

    So the card was cloned and the pin recorded. Not impossible, but how likely to happen nowadays with anti skimming ATM?

  • +4 votes

    When the card provider said they will take 4-6 weeks, that should have set off the alarm bells in your head. They usually deal with it immediately. IMHO, If there are fraudulent charges on the credit card then there are a few things you need to do asap.

    1. Inform the bank/card provider immediately
    2. Block the card/get it replaced so no further transaction can occur
    3. File a police report (the police may not want to know about it for small amounts BUT this is proof that you lodge a complaint about fraudulent activity)
    4. Get written records of all communications with the bank/card provider. Even if you spoke with them on the phone, its best to get a reference number and follow-up with an email to document the conversation.

    I am not sure if you covered steps 3 and 4 op?

    • Unfortunately, we haven't covered steps 3 or 4 but we are considering going to the police this weekend. For all future correspondence, we'll remember to take a reference number and followup email since all of our communication has been via mobile.

      • +3 votes

        Thats ok. File a police complaint and I would suggest you also sign a statutory declaration stating the event and that (1) the withdrawals were not conducted by you; (2) you had no knowledge and the withdrawals were unauthorised; and (3) in your opinion this transaction constitutes fraudulent activity.

        Don't pay a cent - this is not your fault. This is just BS. Give the provider the police report and your Sat Dec and then threaten to file a complaint with the FOS unless they can prove it was not fraudulent activity as per their terms and conditions.

    • They usually deal with it immediately

      What world do you live in?! Every company has SLA/processing time frames!

      • +2 votes

        Yes i know that, but usually you get an idea of the outcomes within a matter of days. I have had this happen to me a number of times (theft of wallets, fraudulently charges, duplicate charges etc as I travel a lot) with various providers and virtually all cases I was informed of a provisional outcome within the first 2 weeks (when I mean outcome - I mean a resolution that I was not responsible and I will be refunded). I would have never left it for 4-6 weeks with no answer.

        This is often followed many weeks later with some notification of final resolution/case closure + refund but that has often been a formality. Mind you I am super persistent and I do every thing by the book when this happens - I document everything, get police reports, ring the provider every few days to get an update, and the whole palava just to protect myself. Been burnt too many times and I have learnt my lessons the hard way.

        • Yeah, I agree, usually they say 4 to 6 weeks and it is resolved well before that.

          My best guess is since they were bought by Latitude there has been staff/process/system changes that added delays maybe?

  • So you still have the card in your possession?

    This means the card was skimmed at some point and counterfeited.

    Going forward, it is best practice to cover your PIN.

    If you still get fraud, then it's a dodgy terminal.

  • Assuming this is a genuine fraudulent transaction and you have not let someone borrow your card and given them your PIN number, you cannot be held liable for this. Per: https://www.28degreescard.com.au/faqs/

    Will I be held liable for unauthorised transactions on my account?
    No, if there’s a fraudulent transaction on your 28 Degrees Platinum Mastercard, you will not be held liable if you have not contributed to the loss and notified us promptly of the theft, loss or misuse of your card/account. You also need to have abided by the Conditions of Use (COU).

    Have a read of section G of the COU at the attached link and make sure there isn't a loophole they can use to hold you liabile, for example:

    (b) where we allow the cardholder to select a
    password, the cardholder must not select:
    (i) a numeric code which represents the
    cardholder’s birth date; or
    (ii) an alphabetical code which is a recognizable
    part of the cardholder’s name.

    Is this the first time you have reported fraudulent transactions on this card? If you repeatedly report fraud more than twice in a 12 month period they can hold you liable. They will also hold you liable if they can prove you have contributed to the fraud.

    • "and notified us promptly of the theft" is ambiguous and can be used against you. You need a definition of "promptly"

  • They are just playing hardball. Go to FOS and you will win (eventually).

    FYI They may ask you for a police report and stat dec.

  • I had a fraudulent transaction on my 28 Degrees card last year, I had a pending charge for around $1000 from a hotel in Amsterdam, a city that I have never ever visited. Because the charge was still pending I was told they couldn't do anything until the charge became valid and that I should call back then.

    After calling back when the charge eventually went through I was told it would take 4-6 weeks of "investigation". All throughout this period I had to keep calling to get updates, and the first time I knew that the charges were reversed was when I logged into my online account. No one from that side had bothered to email or contact me to tell me of the results of the investigation or that the charges had been reversed.

    This experience coupled with their decision to charge for BPAY payments led me to swtich to the Bankwest Zero card for my foreign currency transactions.

    • Bankwest Zero Platinum Mastercard is best card ever for many reasons. I cannot undertsand why anybody would choose a 28 Degrees credit card over a Bankwest Zero Platinum Mastercard unless you dont have a job or are broke. Bankwest also the best bank.

      • Has anyone notice that complaints threads about 28 degrees on this site are followed up by bankwest selling posts?
        There's a name for this type of selling…………

        • I have no affiliation to either 28 Degrees or Bankwest. In fact I was a happy and loyal 28 Degrees customer for many years.

          The reason you do see Bankwest Zero mentioned after a complaint about 28 Degrees is that for a long time they were the two major competitors in the fee free foreign currency transaction credit card

        • Wasn't saying you were since you had a positive experience with 28 degrees. Negged as usual about mentioning bankwest appalling customer service says my thoughts spot on.

          No card keeps in contact about disputes these days in my experience.

        • @uggugg: Absolutey correct. They were best options. But now only Bankwest Zero Platinum Mastercard is left

        • @Amayzingone: stop selling the worst customer service card ever.
          you must be affiliated because you promote several products for shit west.

  • +1 vote

    Dont even waste your time with GE, now that Latitude owns them and have the most arrogant and horrendous customer service i have ever come across, had issues with Latitude that required FOS intervention and even when caught out lying still refused to admit fault, put in a complaint with FOS and let GE/Latitude deal with them, your problem will be solved within 2 weeks

  • This doesnt have anything to do with OP directly, but with my Credit Card there is a facility to notify you thru the phone app on any transaction on my card. As soon as i tap and go or make a credit/saving transaction up comes a notification. I think this is new, and if your card has this feature enable now. A few other features it has i found useful. Disable international transactions (can be enable for 1 hour durations), disable tap and go.

  • Wow the (mis)information in here is all over the place.

    I would start by actually researching your rights here, who has the burden of truth etc, probably won't be easy to find, you'll probably have to contact an ombudsman or lawyer. Secondly get a police report already.

    You really have to look at this from 28d's perspective, the claimed fraudulent transactions occurred in the same city you live in at reasonable times over a 2 to 3 day period using the correct pin, it's not exactly screaming fraud.

    Again find out your rights and then either lodge a complaint or take the next step.

    And I'm not siding with 28d here they have been terrible since I joined up

  • Ive been saying for a long time that this credit card is no good at all. All the so-called great things about this credit card DO NOT EXIST in reality! Here is further evidence that this card is terrible! Partly because its not run by a bank. Just close the account and move on. There are several other FREE credit cards that offer overseas transactions with no foreign exchange fees (eg Bankwest Zero Platinum Mastercard) and at least one other card that does not charge for overseas withdrawals (Citibank Plus Visa debit Card). This grossly oversold card by Ozbargainers doesnt even have free travel insurance or extended warranty. I dont understand why do Ozbargainers even use this 28 Degrees card. Its useless and its a rip-off!

    • worst bank customer experience I ever had was with bankwest card - web is full of complaints about them

      • If you look hard enough you will find complaints about everyone so that is not a relevent or helpful response.
        But Bankwest didnt get bank of the year 2 years running by accident my friend.
        I am also with ANZ - not that there was anything wrong with ANZ, but found Bankwest much better in almost every way.
        ANZ still have by far the best online saver to put some balance in my statement. Thats why I still also bank with ANZ.

  • Thanks, OP, for raising the issue. Please let us know the outcome as I'm sure many of us use 28Degree card and other similar cards for travelling. We all need to look after each other.

  • The card has been skimmed at some stage, same thing happened to one of our family members, people can carry a device in their bag and simply bump you and they have all your CC information.

    • people can carry a device in their bag and simply bump you and they have all your CC information.

      Ummm, no. They cannot get the PIN using RFID…

      • I never said they could, there is obviously more to the story than the OP is letting on… they probably went around using paypass and just used the limit of $100 each time which doesn't require a pin.

        • OP said cash withdrawals?

        • @John Kimble: Well what would your explanation be then going off the information the OP has given, they claim to have never made a cash withdrawal. So, unless there is some sort of technology that I am not aware of that can magically find out someones credit card pin the story doesn't make sense, unless they've been skimmed via an EFTPOS terminal..

        • @randolpg: Just to add some more details on the fraudulent transactions. There were 4 cash withdrawals: $500, $50, $20 and $20 made across the 27 and 28th. On the 29th, there were two transactions made: $40.34 and $42.50 with the description BP YAGOONA 1033.

        • @milfey: cheers for that, did the CC vendor offer an explanation into how it could have occurred?

        • @randolpg: They didn't offer any explanations. After we initially provided them all our details, we left them to their investigation.

          The first time they got back to us, they informed us that the cash withdrawals would've required knowledge that the PIN was known and hence we were expected to pay up. We argued on the basis of a number of points:
          - Transactions were made during the days when we were both at work
          - The transactions occurred over a number of days in the Bankstown/Yagoona area. We live in the Eastern suburbs and work in the Sydney CBD
          - We have never made any cash withdrawals from our credit cards before

          They told us that they'd return this case back to their fraud department for another review.

          The 2nd time they got back to us, they asked a lot of questions to clarify/confirm parts of our story. They informed us that they had drilled down into the transaction timestamps and these had ranged from 9:30pm to 2am on those days hence proving that our first point was invalid.
          Towards the end of the conversation, they had told us we should expect a decision soon (at that time we forgot to ask them for a timeframe). Regardless of when they'll get back to us, we'll call them up for an update sometime this week.

        • @randolpg: hand held devices like the eftpos or tap and go devices can be manually entered so if someone recorded you using card obtaining card number and pin they can enter manually without the physical card, Possibly another question to ask them was the physical card used in particular the 2 at BP Yagoona which are using exact amounts $40.34 you can't do that at an ATM

          The unfortunate thing because they keep delaying OP, BP would have actually had it all on CCTV and possibly still do, i'd call them speak to manager and ask how long they keep CCTV footage for, if they get an employee don't divulge anything. just say you saw something happen there that you need to report and will only discuss with owner / manager.

  • CC fraud is getting quite prevalent now. I think as an OZB community we need to carefully observe and report how various banks and CC providers handle this. Especially with all the CC deals that get reported here.

    If they cannot take appropriate measures to prevent fraud then they should not be supplying CCs in the first place.

  • Regarding fraud detection and their algorithms:
    28Degrees blocked my CC without notice to me after purchase of
    "Who Gives A Crap" recycled toilet paper.
    They said because the name was suspicious. I have to agree, lol.

  • FOS, FOS, FOS,

    You're being hustled, the institution has a mandate to preserve records so the call you made would have been recorded they have given you 2 sets of information. your entitled to request call records.

    Honestly FOS costs you nothing

    Working out a payment plan because they have allowed fraudulent activity is just allowing the cycle to continue and honestly something you shouldn't have to do or put up with.

    FOS will also investigate their processes so if they are consistently allowing this kind of behaviour without protecting their client's they can be issued with improvement notices on top of what ever action they take to resolve what happened to you.

    Which will cost them a lot more than doing the right thing by you.

    They could possibly have reach to obtain ATM footage via confidentiality forms with member institutions but you might find it doesn't even go that far and it's left for 28Deg to sort out if they want to find a culprit.

    • The FOS are pretty useless since they made up of bank staff who return to the banks in higher positions.

      That's funny earning promotion by looking the other way whilst on holiday in an organisation financed by the banks.

      • What you're referring to is the Peter principal.

        They are only as effective as the evidence you can provide.

        By the sounds of the comments above this is could be a well known issue.

        • In old idiom you could staple evidence to their foreheads but they wouldn't accept it.

          Its fair to just say if you want justice look elsewhere - nowhere else to go? well that's Australia for you - industry funded and staffed Ombudsman are long established jokes but remain very popular with industry supported politicians.

          No-one beats a free lunch system.

        • @petry: Funny i have twice with the right info and it end up costing the organisations more in retraining staff than the amount they were trying to unjustly screw me over with

          Evidence is the key and your right they don't bend over backwards but if your proactive and give them what they need they have to act

          Sorry you had such a bad experience with them by the sounds of it.

          Companies especially financial institutions hate giving money back even if your entitled and would rather mount a defence that often costs them more than the claim in the first hour of a lawyer looking at it for them.

        • @Toons:

          No they dont have to act - if they do its because its somehow in their interest.

          Once they spents months arguing I had money refunded to me based on what they were told - printed statements they ignored.

          I mean what can you say when they tell you had money refunded and refuse to look at the statements showing no refunds.

          4 months later, and they made up something different. FOS like all oz Ombudsman are jokes.

          IF you have a tribunal take it there - cuz these Ombudsman are shit.

          Giving people false hope they will be treated reasonably by crooks- cause that's what these sham complaint organisations are - sucks.

          Leaches are healthier.

        • @petry: I'm sorry it went that way for you thats about all i can say in all honesty.

          It sucks to know you were treated in such a way and i do as i said feel sorry the process didn't do you any favours.

          I do however appreciate the words of warning that people shouldn't rely on these organisations as the magic pill that fixes everything.

          and will heed your advice as a cautionary measure to ensure my ducks are in a row first.

          Until something better comes along

  •  

    I had my ING debit card used on the other side of the country 2 weeks ago, in a fast food restaurant. $40.

    Called ING. They cancelled my card immediately and sent me a new one.

    Two weeks later I am still waiting for them to decide what to do. FFS.

    Here I was thinking these guys are alright, but this is making me a little anxious..

  • Just an FYI that 28 degrees have refunded all the transactions except for a few fees that were directly a result of the fraudulent transactions (eg. cash advance fees etc).

    We have decided we no longer want to possess this card.

  • except for a few fees that were directly a result of the fraudulent transactions (eg. cash advance fees etc)

    That's just bullsh*t. You didn't make the cash advances so should not be liable for the incidentals such as cash advance fees and interest.

    Wow, can't believe they've strung you along all this while, they're very sly. Glad I don't have my 28 Degrees card anymore.