Where Do I Stand- during Vehicle Service, Software Was Updated Removing a Feature of My Mazda CX-9

jason101 on 23/11/2017 - 22:57
Last edited 24/11/2017 - 05:54 by 1 other user

Hi all - advice please.

Took my car in for a software update as the GPS, audio and other vehicle controls were in a boot loop or when working freezing up or doing very strange things (like not having volume control).

Dealership confirmed there was a software update available and performed the update, effectively resetting every setting in the car.

On the drive back to my office I noticed the head up display (Mazda CX-9) is no longer displaying the tacho, I try to re-enable the HUD settings and note some options are now missing from the menu system in the car.

I google around and find Mazda decided to remove this feature in their latest software update.

So I feel a little jilted given I purchased this vehicle because this was one of the cool features (a detailed customisable HUD) which has now been intentionally crippled by the manufacturer.

I called the dealer and asked them to re-install an older version of the software which still allowed the addition of additional vehicle info to the HUD and they said they would not install an older software version.

I questioned them as to why they didn't inform me that the version of the software they were installing would remove a feature set and they basically said - yes we understand you are upset and have made a note of your complaint.

I then called Mazda Australia customer support to complain that the dealer didn't inform me the version of the software they were installing would remove some features of the vehicle and they said they would investigate.

So my question is…

Can a vehicle manufacturer intentionally remove vehicle features which were functioning fine via software updates simply because they determine I should no longer have that feature (remember I went in to get the software for the audio and GPS updated and they removed a feature of the head up display, which I assume was bundled into whatever upgrade they performed) - is this legal ?

Not that I would imagine the situation would ever occur, but what if they decided my particular vehicle should no longer have air-conditioning, seems they just upgrade the software to omit this feature and bam - no A/C or whatever feature they determine the vehicle should no longer have.

Automotive

Comments

  • bdl on 23/11/2017 - 23:08
    +4

    Did the update fix the "GPS, audio and other vehicle controls were in a boot loop or when working freezing up or doing very strange things (like not having volume control)"?

  • jason101 on 23/11/2017 - 23:14
    +2

    Seems to have fixed it. Very weird in that the boot loop was worse when there were 2 USB sticks plugged in, DAB+ radio was being listened to and the AC was on eco mode…. so it was possible to minimise the issue by avoiding doing certain things. Occassional random reboots of the system were livable except when they were happening while reversing immediately killing the reversing camera - which was just dangerous as the design of this vehicle makes it impossible to see out the back window when reversing.

    I guess was hoping the dealer could just roll back the software to an earlier iteration which fixed the known issues (or most of them) but still allowed the HUD to be customisable (which they wont do). Also the principal of the matter irks me (ie we will just remove features without telling you and bad luck) - I know its 1st world problem stuff, but it annoys me allot.

  • m0tyrider on 23/11/2017 - 23:49
    +3

    I would complain to Mazda directly, in writing (email) then follow up with a phone call if you don't hear anything.

    • Diji1 on 24/11/2017 - 00:05
      +3

      Or do it on social media so they pay attention.

      • m0tyrider on 24/11/2017 - 15:45

        I would try directly first before openly bashing a company on a public forum - they might be more willing to help.

  • spackbace on 24/11/2017 - 00:55
    -7

    Microsoft is ditching paint from Windows, that's more of a concern.

    Though you have more problems than deleted features if you own a Mazda ;) let's just say don't keep it past the warranty period!

    • jimbobaus on 24/11/2017 - 02:08
      +1

      Given how many older Mazda’s are on the road I think this might something unique to you.
      We have two Mazda’s in our household. One is almost 11 years old and apart from the usual brakes, etc nothing major has ever gone wrong.

      • spackbace on 24/11/2017 - 02:10

        Given what I've seen as a car salesperson seeing trade ins

        At least 2 reports of Mazda needing to replace turbos on diesel cx5s

        A cx7 coming in with 120,000kms and no wholesaler or dealer even wanting to buy it!

        I get that Mazda have created a strong brand image, but do some reading on slightly older ones (3-5yo) and it gets interesting.

        • jimbobaus on 24/11/2017 - 02:17
          +2

          I think this is not unique to mazda.

          There are a lot of them on the road (they are like axxholes)
          It’s not just about thier branding etc I personally believe they make a good reliable car (from my personal exp)
          I have however heard their was some issues with their diesels for a while. The bt50/ranger both suffered from some serious issues early on from what I have read.

          I never buy diesel so can’t speak to their quality. I live in the city and do city driving so I get no benifet from owning one hence why I never chose diesel options.

          We have two petrol Mazda’s. a 2017 Cx5 (which we upgrade from the first model) and a 2006 3

          The 3 has about 180,000kms on it and it still runs like a dream. Mind you we bought it new, are the only owners and still service it every 15-20k kms

          I worked at Toyota for a while and I saw a few Toyota’s traded in that we couldn’t even resell to wholesalers. (Hilux for example)

        • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 09:41

          @jimbobaus:

          'still service it every 15-20k kms'

          Your engine will be stuffed shortly, if not already, if you continue to service it every 20k unless you use long life fully synthetic oil which I doubt you are.

          Isn't the recommended service interval 10k for madza using semi-synthetic oil?

        • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 10:10

          Older naturally aspirated Mazda's are fine because they aren't high tech.

          The new Mazda's are more high tech with high compresssion ratios. Add to that issues with Mazda's diesel engines.

          Modern Mazda's aren't as reliable as the old low tech ones, in particular the diesel.

          That's why Toyota have a very good reputation for reliability because they use low tech engines, however even their more recent cars aren't bulletproof like the older ones.

          All cars get more and more complex and to meeting stricter emissions, they are becoming more unreliable as they get older.

          Also all modern diesels don't like short trips and regularly need to a long hwy run.

          I'm going to stick to my 'unreliable' euro brands, fortunately, I have had good luck with them.

        • jimbobaus on 24/11/2017 - 12:11

          @JB1:
          Service intervals are 20k or 12 months on older.
          They changed to 10k or 12 months a couple years back.

        • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 13:22
          +1

          @jimbobaus:

          I'm certain they were 10k or 12months for older cars.

          If anything, newer cars are moving to longer service intervals, not shorter, i.e. Honda.

    • Borris on 24/11/2017 - 09:58
      +1

      Just in case your interested, they came back the day after that announcement and said "Paint will be available to download for free from the Windows Store" and its only if you do a fresh install of the Win 10 fall update that you'll need to do that.

  • Rayve on 24/11/2017 - 01:50

    It might be worth checking with the consumer watchdog. I do not think the ACCC would like if this extended to other areas as well - say TV's or 'phones. The principle of buying something that is a feature, regardless of whether it is software or hardware, and then having it removed without prior notification by the manufacturer and without your consent, particularly because you have paid for that feature, would probably be of concern to them and they might give you some advice on your options under the law.

    • HighAndDry on 24/11/2017 - 11:42

      I wouldn't bother. This happens all the time with basically every 'smart' electronic appliance or other product. "Removing a feature" is effectively the same as "changing a feature in a way that someone doesn't like."

      • Rayve on 24/11/2017 - 12:18

        I don't agree. By your 'logic' they could remove the record feature from a dvr and you would say that was acceptable. If you buy a product because it has feature 'x' and they later remove that feature you have not got the product you paid for. Essentially the product has been 'damaged' by their actions since it no longer meets the description of the item you bought so you should be protected by consumer laws which state that:

        "Products must also:

        match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising".

        His car no longer matches the description of the goods he purchased and therefore he should be due a remedy from Mazda.

        • HighAndDry on 24/11/2017 - 12:31

          By your 'logic' they could remove the record feature from a dvr and you would say that was acceptable.

          Except the "record" feature would be one of, if not the, main feature of a DVR. Whereas the ability to customize and see the Tachometer on the HUD is far from the main feature of a car.

          Better example would be an iPhone update removing the ability to customize emojis. Or removing/changing certain emojis.

  • popcornready on 24/11/2017 - 06:47

    What were the actual “features” that were removed?

    If it were certain graphics from the HUD, what exactly were they?

    • jason101 on 24/11/2017 - 07:50

      Basically there is no customization at all, either on or off, the issue is that by removing the tacho graphics they didn't reconfigure the display so one ends up with a HUD which is 75% nothing and a tiny speedo at the bottom of what was the display.

  • vinni9284 on 24/11/2017 - 07:13

    "….(a detailed customisable HUD) which has now been intentionally crippled by the manufacturer."

    This feature could have caused the bootloop, but IMO they would not admit to it and it has been intentionally removed by the manufacturer.

    A similar analogy would be a PC software driver for a piece of hardware, where the original version of drivers/software are causing issues with the hardware hence the boot loop.

    The only way they could resolve this issue is the manufacturer update to a newer software once again and include the missing original features HUD etc.

    For this to happen, you may need a massive backlash from customers that have the same car … desire to have the taco … etc .. IMO would be highly unlikely.

    Cheers

    • jason101 on 24/11/2017 - 07:28
      +3

      I googled around and found a Mazda Canada service bulletin, it refers to it being removed.

      "The tachometer function has been removed from the Active Driving Display (Cx-9) as part of Mazda's continuing efforts to improve safety and reduce driver distraction. Please explain this to the customer before updating the software"

      grrr

      • unco on 24/11/2017 - 08:11

        I went in for my service around August and they had a sign that said that exact quote on the counter of the service desk.

  • JimmyF on 24/11/2017 - 08:49
    +1

    Can a vehicle manufacturer intentionally remove vehicle features which were functioning fine via software updates

    Working fine you say?

    Took my car in for a software update as the GPS, audio and other vehicle controls were in a boot loop or when working freezing up

  • cloudy on 24/11/2017 - 09:35
    +1

    I think you will be a little hard pressed to get a result u like. Mostly because I think your car still functions very much like a car.

    Apple always makes updates that I scratch my head, or make me annoyed, or even removing features( though I don't remember any removal lately). I doubt I could get anywhere complaining. When it comes to modern features in tech, they control us, we don't control them.

    • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 09:42

      The difference is, before any upgrade you have to agree to the T&Cs.

      No such thing here.

      • cloudy on 24/11/2017 - 15:30
        +1

        I just bought a new iPad, before I can use any of it I had to agree to t&c. I didn’t read it, but I bet it covered it’s arse in all situations, maybe Mazda covered it’s rear end when u bought the car?

        • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 15:38

          No.

        • cloudy on 24/11/2017 - 21:34

          @JB1:

          Signed nothing when buying the car? alrightz, go get'em!

  • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 09:43

    I dislike the America culture of litigation, however in this case here I'd be going to the ACCC and/or suing because it's not right that they remove any features of a car without your consent.

    Are you the first owner of the car?

    • jason101 on 24/11/2017 - 14:05

      Yes first owner, I dont think its a suing or perhaps even ACCC worthy event, but I'd be happy if they just slid me a USB with another version of the software on it and I'd downgrade it myself. I don't think this is going to happen. Per the below comment - looks like they may have made it impossible to downgrade anyway..

      • JimB on 24/11/2017 - 15:04
        -3

        Up to you.

        You paid for features.

        In the event of repairing a fault, they reduced the features of your car.

        Seems like a worthy reason to sue.

        • tonyjzx on 24/11/2017 - 17:48
          +1

          yeah you wont win

          mazda can justify this as adhering to ADRs and road safety

          i'm not saying its something they should have done but companies have done much worse and got away with it

          also i feel that the OP is more than a tad precious

  • oscargamer on 24/11/2017 - 10:33

    What's the version on your system now. If it's 59.00.502 then it is impossible to roll back the firmware.
    Post here with your version. If it's earlier than above, I can help.

    • jason101 on 24/11/2017 - 20:54

      Checked today it started with 59 and ended with 502 so I think its game over.

      • oscargamer on 24/11/2017 - 22:30

        yep - you are stuck with that firmware

        simply cannot be wound back to older version

  • Seraphin7 on 24/11/2017 - 10:35
    +1

    In all honesty, you could spend days and days attempting to get a resolution here and will likely be unsuccessful with respect to getting the tach back on HUD. This will in no way be considered a significant defect.

    While it's always frustrating when this sort of thing happens, I've still just got to ask … just how important is having the tach on the HUD in a 7 seater SUV that I will assume is automatic and predominantly used for basic city driving?

    • Rayve on 24/11/2017 - 12:21

      Whilst I agree personally with your thoughts - I turned of the digital tachometer in my car as it just cluttered the dash display - but it is not up to anyone else but the OP to decide how important a feature that he paid for and was influenced to make a purchase decision based-upon.

      • mctubster on 24/11/2017 - 13:24
        +1

        Would be interesting to see if there is a software license agreement as part of the sale contract with the normal amount of wiggle (you are licensing a product, not purchasing it) that means this point is mute - very annoying but within Mazda's rights.

      • Seraphin7 on 24/11/2017 - 13:27
        +1

        I don't disagree with your view and I recognise this is a pain up the @rse when this sort of thing happens.

        The point I was trying to get to regarding potential options for the OP is that this won't go anywhere. The OP might get a goodwill gesture from the dealer, but that will be best case. My advice to the OP then is to create some noise with the dealer/head office, maybe get a free service or something of that nature, but then move on.

        Mazda/the dealer aren't going to get prosecuted over the matter and will not be forced into some sort of software upgrade to restore the functionality. The OP seems to be asking if something of this nature is possible.

        The ACCC (or similar) won't be interested in this matter as whether or not the ability the put the tach on the HUD will not be deemed a material feature.

  • jason101 on 24/11/2017 - 14:11

    Weirdly if I had re-saved the seat position with the HUD/tacho turned on, irrespective of update, by calling back that seat position I could have re-enabled the vehicle features including the original HUD…..

    https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123858194-201…

    Unfortunately I didn't do this.

  • outlander on 24/11/2017 - 18:03

    Make a stink to Mazda over it. Keep calling, escalating it, writing letters to everyone and anyone. Eventually you should make it up the ladder to their tech team, which are the only real people able to do anything.

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