Advice on Pursuing Further Compensation for an Injury at an Australian University (RESOLVED)

m8 on 19/12/2017 - 15:59
Last edited 20/12/2017 - 10:52 by 1 other user

Hi OzB. I would really appreciate any advice or any professional bodies to seek advice from:

Incident:
Ruptured ACL/Meniscus tear from a university martial arts class. This occurred when asked to perform a move that was not taught but rather shown (on campus). No private health insurance therefore medical bills including ambulance from the Uni came out of my back pocket (>$15k and ongoing in expenses). I've also had 2 months loss of income due to being temporarily disabled.

Claim:
Sought out a public liability claim through the university's gym's insurance company. The claim was accepted and a max of $5k was given to me for the claim. I'm assuming this means that the university has accepted that they are liable?

Discussion:
If the university has accepted liability and I have achieved the maximum amount I could get from their insurance company, does that mean I could seek out for the university to pay out the rest of my expenses?
Would you know where I can find help for this issue? Whom shall I talk to in ensuring that my pockets don't burn further?

Thank you and have a happy bargain hunting Christmas.

Financial

Comments

  • Seraphin7 on 19/12/2017 - 16:15
    +8

    There's any number of ambulance chaser personal injury compensation solicitors out there offering "no win, no fee" services. They will be your best bet.

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:26
      +1

      Thanks! I'll give it a shot.

    • Cheapo Moose on 21/12/2017 - 15:14

      … and they'll take 50 percent of any damages awarded.

  • tsunamisurfer on 19/12/2017 - 16:15
    +1

    $15k? Did you go public or private for your treatment?

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:27

      Private. Public had me waiting a minimum of 3 months (it's been less than three now and I still do physio twice a week).

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:30
      +14

      A knee reconstruction is no joke. You wouldn't be laughing if you were in my shoes. But thank you anyway for your advice.

      • payton on 19/12/2017 - 18:33
        -2

        no pain no gain

    • OzzyOzbourne on 21/12/2017 - 16:40

      You should have claimed when you were dropped on your head

      • Lando on 22/12/2017 - 08:10
        -1

        Toughen up, angel.

  • nivag01 on 19/12/2017 - 16:16
    +4

    why wasn't it covered by medicare? are you not eligible for some reason?

    • Quantumcat on 19/12/2017 - 16:28
      +7

      He chose to go private

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:31

      Yeah, private.
      "Private. Public had me waiting a minimum of 3 months (it's been less than three now and I still do physio twice a week)."

  • Diji1 on 19/12/2017 - 16:25
    +3

    Get a lawyer. Do not do it yourself. Any insurance is using lawyers and they will (profanity) you. Do not ask the insurance company for advice, they will (profanity) you.

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:34

      Thank you for your response.
      Any specific type of lawyers? Insurance lawyers?

      • AlanHB on 20/12/2017 - 23:23
        +2

        Personal injury lawyers dude, but you already accepted the $5k offer, which ends the claim.

  • whooah1979 on 19/12/2017 - 16:30
    +3

    a university martial arts class. This occurred when asked to perform a move that was not taught but rather shown (on campus).

    it's surprising that the instructor/s did get you to sign an liability waiver before joining the class. they probably won't have job after this.

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:36

      Thanks for your response.
      I can't exactly recall this. But the University has accepted liability, right? So does it matter?

      • 2jzzzz on 19/12/2017 - 16:53
        +15

        You accepting the payout with the maximum set may have freed them from any further claims you make. See aawyer.

        • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 17:15

          Thanks. What type of lawyer is suitable for this incident?

        • djkelly69 on 19/12/2017 - 17:31

          @m8: Personal injury/compensation lawyer

  • Slippery Fish on 19/12/2017 - 16:32
    +2

    Talk to a lawyer, it's their job to know these things.

    Also did you sign liability for.s when you started the uni martial arts?

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:37

      "
      m8 0 sec ago new
      Thanks for your response.
      I can't exactly recall this. But the University has accepted liability, right? So does it matter?"

      • try2bhelpful on 19/12/2017 - 16:46
        +4

        They may have given you compensation without admitting liability, it will depend on the wording of the settlement.

        • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:49

          Thanks. Once I'm home i'll check the wording of the settlement.

      • Slippery Fish on 19/12/2017 - 17:03

        If you waived liability for them it'll be a "gesture of good will" I'd think. I'm not a lawyer though so I could be wrong but unis are usually very good at crossing their t and dotting the i's

  • whooah1979 on 19/12/2017 - 16:32

    what martial arts was it?

    • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:33

      Jap Jiu Jitsu

      • whooah1979 on 19/12/2017 - 16:38

        a takedown? a throw?

        please don't tell us that you broke the fall with your knees. that must have hurt like sob.

        • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 16:39
          +1

          hip throw. the guy had no gi and slipped mid-throw and fell on my knee and it collapsed inwards.

        • Slippery Fish on 19/12/2017 - 17:04
          -7

          @m8: haha so all it takes to beat you is regular clothing xD the irony

        • m8 on 19/12/2017 - 17:16
          +7

          @Slippery Fish: And 1 sweaty boi

  • WAChick on 19/12/2017 - 16:52
    +35

    Jiu Jitsu is a risky sport, injury is common place and practitioners are aware and accepting of this. I think you should assume some responsibility in this as well. You chose to go ahead with the move. You could have sought further advice on how to complete the throw if you were unsure. Students have as much responsibility to ensure they understand and can complete a move without injuring themselves and their partner, as their instructors have to teach them. The university insurance has paid you out for what they accept was their role in the accident, the rest unfortunately is all you. This craziness of running around to blame everyone else as opposed to accepting some responsibility in events is what drives up insurance premiums.

      • Presence on 19/12/2017 - 17:55
        +17

        If nothing else you're going to ensure this university simply bans any sports with any risk of injury.

      • Make it so on 19/12/2017 - 18:50

        could have been avoided with professional training

        I can see from your feedback that you have the misconception that Martial Arts can be made 100% safe through proper instruction. Unfortunately, that is not true. Martial Arts ≠ Engineering. "Learning from failure" (or rather, "learning by doing") is often the only way to perfect, especially because each person is different.

        In all fairness, having read some of your comments containing information that you really should have put in the description, there are possibly two wrongs which the club may have done:

        • Beginners should not be thrown (or only brought down very carefully by a senior person)
        • The person who landed on you did not have a gi. This implies they may have been a beginner themselves, freshly joined. Beginners should not exercise complex moves with other beginners (neither will learn), let alone throws.

        I still think you made bad decisions and need to be more realistic. But potentially the club could have been more careful.

        • whooah1979 on 19/12/2017 - 20:50
          +1

          The person who landed on you did not have a gi.

          a gi isn't required to perform an o goshi. it's easier with a gi, but can be done without one. it sounds like they were improvising doing it without a gi, and it went all wrong.

        • Make it so on 20/12/2017 - 12:10
          -1

          @whooah1979: A gi is an outfit. Of course any move can be done without a gi, but my point was that people should be expected to wear a gi during training. If they are not wearing one, it is likely that they haven't purchased one yet because they are new (and therefore inexperienced, and therefore shouldn't be throwing people).

        • MrBear on 20/12/2017 - 13:06
          +1

          @Make it so:

          it is likely that they haven't purchased one yet because they are new

          Or they just forgot it that day or a 1000 other assumptions could be made like yours…

        • Make it so on 20/12/2017 - 13:13

          @MrBear: Martial artists don't just "forget" their gi. More often than not, they wear it when they leave the house. And if you do forget it, many clubs won't even let you train.

        • whooah1979 on 20/12/2017 - 14:28

          @Make it so:

          it is likely that they haven't purchased one yet because they are new (and therefore inexperienced, and therefore shouldn't be throwing people).

          It's my understanding of op is that op was the party that performed the o goshi and got injured in the process. Op can confirm.

          The only way for op to progress from an inexperienced Ma (or some other grade) to the next grade is by practice. Be it with an opponent that's wearing a gi or not.

        • Make it so on 20/12/2017 - 14:41

          @whooah1979:
          Maybe. There is more than one way to read this comment. You may be right.

          Beginners do not progress by learning complex moves from other beginners, and it can be dangerous to do so in the case of throws. A senior is better placed to ensure controlled falls and teach how to perform a move safely. As I stated quite clearly above, not wearing a gi implies they were a beginner. I don't care about the clothes themselves in terms of enabling the move.

        • saintmagician0 on 20/12/2017 - 20:05

          @Make it so:

          "As I stated quite clearly above, not wearing a gi implies they were a beginner. "

          It really doesn't, unless the OP has said that it's a club where everyone is required to wear a gi.

          There were martial arts classes at my uni where people wore casual (gym) clothes. I think most of the students probably wouldn't have called themselves 'martial artists', just regular students who joined a particular sports club.

          Obviously other clubs, even other uni clubs, may or may not have been more strict with uniform requirements.

          Maybe the OP can clarify whether the person they threw was a beginner…

        • MrBear on 21/12/2017 - 09:13

          @Make it so:

          Martial artists don't just "forget" their gi.

          I forget sh!t all the time. I should become a martial artist so I don't forget stuff anymore.

      • gummibear on 20/12/2017 - 21:55
        +2

        When not being taught appropriately of how to avoid injury and told to perform the move, the person liable for the injury is the instructor.
        No one needs to be taught to avoid injury by using common sense.

        you are responsible for knowing your own limits and behaving appropriately.

        If you are learning to drive and the instructor knows you obviously aren't skilled, but demands you drive at 100kmph on a first lesson. You obviously would say no I'm going to learn at 40kmph until I'm comfortable to pick up the speed.

        It's very easy to say what you have just said until you feel like you're paying a very large sum for an accident that could have been avoided with professional training.

        It's also very easy to try and get someone else to pay a bill that could have been avoided by using common sense.

        BTW, this is not an attack on you. However the reasoning behind your argument I don't agree with.

      • matt-ozb on 20/12/2017 - 23:41
        +1

        So you have so sense of self-awareness and self-safety?

        How have you lived for so long as you rely on others to direct you?

    • Make it so on 19/12/2017 - 18:07
      +8

      I am puzzled that the University has assumed responsibility at all. Probably trying to avoid bad press.

      If you join a martial arts club, expect to get injured at some stage. This is normal, and a choice you make when you walk in. If you choose not to have private insurance, but don't want to deal with the consequence of not having private insurance (delays), then you should also take responsibility for the financial consequence of that.

      I think this post would get less sympathy if the title said "Compensation for injury at Martial Arts class".

      a move that was not taught but rather shown

      What other way is there to teach Martial Arts?

      It seems odd to get injured to this extent from simply performing a move wrongly without there being some pre-existing condition, or without seriously overdoing it.

      I have been injured several times, mostly due to my own fault (overdoing it, insufficient warmup, etc.). I would never consider suing anyone for it, unless they assaulted me whilst not in a tournament or exercise.

      You should take up chess instead.

      • payton on 19/12/2017 - 18:30
        +3

        Get ready for compensation question about swallowing, stepping or sitting on a chess piece

        million to one shot, Doc, million to one

        • Make it so on 19/12/2017 - 18:35
          +2

          Or back-injury from sitting still for too long.

    • chumlee on 19/12/2017 - 18:23
      +5

      Lol

      • payton on 19/12/2017 - 18:31
        +3

        Optimism

        • ireadtermsofuse on 20/12/2017 - 20:10
          +2

          Works on contingency?

          No, money down!

  • chumlee on 19/12/2017 - 18:22
    +6

    Assuming you had to sign an agreement with the insurance company before you got your money?

  • askme69 on 19/12/2017 - 21:44
    +17

    This is where the world has gone too Crap
    Take some responsibility for what you did. No one had a gun to your head.

  • Aussie Smurfette on 20/12/2017 - 09:50
    +6

    You have been compensated, there is no second go at it.
    Your paperwork from your compensation will show something along the lines of that.

    • akyeeeahdude on 20/12/2017 - 20:43
      +1

      Exactly right - you've already accepted $5K from the insurer. You no doubt have accepted this offer and waived any further right to claim. Google deed of release.

  • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 13:47
    +3

    I have taught martial arts for some time, including running classes in education establishments.
    All students sign a notice to accept that it is classed as high-risk pursuit and that accidents that occur will only be compensated if there is evidence of willful, neglectful behaviour by the instructor.
    All registered instructors carry their own indemnity insurance, so I can only guess that the university made a non-culpable payment as a gesture of goodwill.
    If you chose to go down a private claim then be prepared to give evidence of costs of treatment, loss of earnings etc.
    However, you may have signed a "No further claim" statement when you were paid out.

    • Make it so on 20/12/2017 - 13:54

      willful, neglectful behaviour

      Yep, those are they key words. Unless this can be proven, there is no case.

  • HeWhoKnows on 20/12/2017 - 19:49
    -3

    No obligation legal advice and compensation claims

    Call JFK Legal on
    02 9665 4846
    0413 657 527
    [email protected]

    I have used this guy and there is no charge if the claim is unsuccessful. Very reasonale charges and very knowledgable
    Used to work for the insurance companies so he knows all the ins and outs

    Good luck

    • payton on 20/12/2017 - 22:41
      +2

      john@jfklegal.com.au

      We don't even need an intact cranium to win our cases!

      • HeWhoKnows on 24/12/2017 - 17:17
        +1

        Never go forth in such cases without good advice. Often those doing so end up with a significanatly poorer result. Insurance companies are there to screw you. They will always offer you the absolute minimum amount so they can close the case. Thats why you need proper legal advise

  • Plug on 20/12/2017 - 20:40
    +6

    Sorry if this sounds harsh but don't you just love the compensation culture we have nowadays? OP had a bit of bad luck whilst doing something (s)he voluntarily chose to do and now wants a payout. Take a bit of responsibility instead of always blaming someone else.

    • T1OOO on 20/12/2017 - 21:08
      -1

      I agree. Sad sad world we live in. Can’t some one else pay for my mistake? It sickens me.

    • HeWhoKnows on 24/12/2017 - 17:21
      +1

      Yes and No.
      One way or the other you pay for this. So may as well claim on it.

      OP has no idea what permament or long term injuries they will suffer. This is why they should seek professional advice/assistance.
      Hence your comment is both uninformed and completely lacks compassion and understanding for injured persons sufferings.

      Maybe one day you will suffer a similar injury.
      Im sure you wont sit on your bum and just say "Im OK"

  • ipiok on 20/12/2017 - 21:53
    -4

    HAHA all these keyboard lawyers

    • champ21 on 20/12/2017 - 22:08
      +1

      How so exactly? people saying that the op should accept the consequences rather than ask for a payout are keyboard warriors?

    • CHUNK on 21/12/2017 - 06:15

      Judging from the posts you seem to be the true keyboard warrior. People have been offering constructive criticism and pointed the op in the right direction. Despite the op being greedy by trying to get a second settlement and not going through Medicare, but going straight to private without any insurance.

      • ipiok on 21/12/2017 - 08:08
        -2

        Have you ever torn your ACL, you do realise you are incapable of walking, OP didn't really have a choice.

        • CHUNK on 21/12/2017 - 10:02

          I've personally done alot worse completely tore my patella tendon playing union. I was on crutches for a month before surgery via the public health system. Then had six months of mild rehab. Back to running these days albeit no more marathons.

          Did I seek a payout? Nope.

          Do you have a choice? Yes, you always have a choice. Stop acting like a fool and portraying the op as some sort of victim. He chose to participate in a physical contact sport. He needs to grow a pair and live with his "choice" to put himself in a high risk situation.

          This notion that oh I got injured by choosing to put myself in a high risk activity and now you must compensate me because I hurt myself is pathetic.

  • Ayanami on 20/12/2017 - 22:05
    +5

    Sorry to hear of your injuries. Regardless of fault, joint injuries are serious and can have long term effects. Heal well regardless of the outcome of your claim.

    Anyway, as your queries, go see a lawyer (and for future reference go see one at the start; it's so much harder to put the milk back in the bottle after it's been spilled). Read the costs agreement carefully; "no win, no fee" is rarely actually "no win, no fee" as that term would commonly be understood.

    Things your lawyer will have to grapple with, among other things:

    (a) whether the payout you have already received was accepted by you in full and final settlement;
    (b) whether the payout was paid "without prejudice", as a gesture of good will;
    (c) whether you signed a waiver (not that it is definitive, but it is likely relevant);
    (d) whether there was actually any negligence on the part of the people involved (accidents happen where no one is at fault;
    (e) whether the occupier or some other party could be strictly liable for injury, i.e. liable even if no negligence;
    (f) volenti defence: whether you voluntarily assumed the risk of harm by participating in an inherently risky (to an extent) activity.

    In the majority of cases like these, people who are self-represented are woefully under-compensated. Insurers, even statutory ones, are not here to make sure the injured are properly cared for. They are there to pay out the minimum that they can get away with. Really, just go see a lawyer. Any lawyer worth their salt will not charge fees which make their engagement pointless (i.e. they charge more than the likely gain from their involvement), unless you unnecessary rack up fees or cause the compensation to be lower than anticipated by, for example, lying, misleading or unreasonably failing to follow medical or legal advice.

    Do not take the above as encouraging or discouraging you to do anything other than get legal advice.

  • baktiar77 on 20/12/2017 - 23:23
    +4

    Pretty sure you (profanity) up as soon you took their 5K, because there's no way they'd hand over that much without a few conditions such as you being unable to pursue further action.

    I also hope that you don't (profanity) it up for everyone else who enjoys martial arts due to a simple accident. Shit happens. A few years back, I ruptured my ACL playing grade soccer/football. I didn't go around asking for money, I sucked it up, waited on the public system, and returned back to the sport I loved a year later.

    • [Deactivated] on 21/12/2017 - 00:31
      +1

      Hats off sir.
      If you can't afford replacing your car head light, then ride a bicycle. Coz guess what? You need to have insurance which cost you more. Op's best bet was playing chess.
      I am very sorry for Op that had an accident and was injured. I hope he somehow finds a way to pay off the money or if the uni has a budget and has no plan to invest it in research maybe they can help but well suing the university?
      If you didn't know how to perform the move, you could simply reject the offer and no, the university didn't accept the responsibility, the insurance accepted the incident.
      They better shut that university if didn't ask for an injury waiver at the beginning especially for such a violent sport.
      Thanks for sharing op, let us know how you resolved it. Lessons to be learned. Hope you get back to normal soon.

  • SaberX on 21/12/2017 - 00:21
    +5

    Wow $15k. IS that inclusive of the surgery itself? I assume that the hospital cover and anaesthesist cost a fair bit. I'm looking at ACL surgery too and private they range from $2k-3.8k for most of the well known ones locally. Private health only pay $700-1.1k depending on the item code. So still out of pocket $1-2.5k for surgery. There are 'no gap' providers with hbf and private health, although you don't have this - but unfortunately all the 'known name' private doctors don't list under this.

    May i ask how you ended up wracking up $15k? Did you goto a well renowned and super pricey orthopaedic surgeon? Also - was there any reason for the rush? Public is 3 months but strangely when i tore mine it hurt liek hell and i hobbled out on someone's shoulder later after icing and resting on the sidelines for abit. But apart from needing crutches and being one legged it eventually went down and im walking now (did it end of october). looking at elective surgery after a feb hols next year. Just curious why you didn't wait? Were you severely unstable?

    On another note (maybe i'll create a thread) how was your ACL reconstruction experience? How about others? Wondering if the hamstring graft is robbing paul to pay peter and you fix one thing but weaken the other? Be keen to hear how your pain post op was - probably one thing freaking me out about doing it, that and although im also under 30 y/o the chances of complications: DVT resulting in PE, infections etc. Hard to shake the worry wart mindset when you've never had surgery before i guess.

    • squashedfrog on 21/12/2017 - 14:53

      I've had 3 different ACL reconstructions on the same leg.

      All have been private. My first one i actually waited 10 months on the public system until i couldn't take it anymore (the list was 18mths+). I kept dislocating the knee on occasions and collapsing. Each time the knee would blow up and it would take a couple of weeks to settle. For people who think that ACLs are not required, yeah, if you are happy to walk on level surfaces and concede never to do any climbing or anything involving some twisting of the knee, or jumping.

      The first one was paid out of pocket - hamstring graft - the surgery was done twice over successive days to correct a screw which was not drilled correctly (using the same hamstring). This totaled over 10K. And also you have to factor in many weeks of rehab with physio afterwards too. The hospital stay costs can rack up 700+ a night depending on hospital. At that time, I could also claim a % off from tax for medical expenses over 2K, but that doesn't exist anymore.

      The second was a LARS graft - with private health insurance
      The third was a patella graft - with private health insurance

      The gap i had to pay was in the 2-3k range. Mainly anaesthetist fees which are way above the claim limit and vary depending on DR. I've had one anaesthetist which didn't charge me any gap (how refreshing). Also the surgeon usually charges a gap of a few hundred to a thousand. I didn't have to pay any hospital stay gap for the 3rd reco, but the 2nd reco i had to pay $50 a night because i was with a different provider.

      • SaberX on 22/12/2017 - 03:16

        holy jeezus. how did you do 3 on the same leg? I mean how did the hamstring graft (first one) fail? WOuld you recommend me not get that graft? I heard the LARS is a quick fix, but for the everyday person i.e. non professional sportsmen, I don't think it is a great long term fix. supposedly known failure rates, and eventually something synthetic failing as it can't repair minor wear and tear?

        I agree - people say the obvious: you need an ACL for sports that are non linear, but I am worried that what is normal unstable surfaces i.e. hiking up paths, everyday life, on holidays, could be a 'risk' as you get older and your muscles aren't as conditioned. I am however, scared about doing the surgery and ending up with a bung leg or chronic pain as i am somewhat scared of tinkering with such a sensitve joint. Not to mention robbing your hamstring to give to the knee. How has your experience been with long term structural weaknesses of the hamstring post grafting it? no issues?

        It's amazing how the prices are so diferent. I have a $100 hospital excess but otherwise fully covered. Happy to pay it. Have no idea on who provides what after surgery - compression stockings (if any at all), meds, splints/braces etc. so I dont even know if i have to buy these or if i'll be covered. I guess they maycost a few hundred but can't be as expensive as the surgery.

        Can't believe how expensive your first one out of pocket was. even with the surgeons iw as seeing (gap and no gap providers) were 2-3k. most expensive was one quoting "AMA" rates, which is $3.8k. Seems like over east is way more expensive than WA??

        And yeah your right, the medical expenses tax ofset no longer exists. I always wondered how i could ever meet the minimum spend, and unfortuantely now when i do i no longer can use it! DRats! The physio is killing me. I dont know how those physical trainers do 1-1.5 hr sessions in the US and all, and peopel do it regularly? It must be covered by their system??? here a 20 minute appointment is $79. Take off $21 from hbf, or $37-42 if i up my private health extra cover, i still pay anywhere from $55 to 37 out of pocket. Do that twice a week and your close to $100… and that's just pre surgery rehabbing. in one month you burn through $400-500 easily.

      • SaberX on 22/12/2017 - 03:22

        forgot to ask - but how was your experience of the actual surgery? Nothing needs to be said about how much day to day rehab and effort is required… but apart from inconvenience how was the pain and complications? Tbh i am scared shitless of it, and there's never really been anything in life that has quite daunted me as this. Scared me when much bigger, athletic, tough guys are crying out about how shitty the pain is, and ladies saying it was worth than childbirth (and i know alot of ladies who go on about childbirth and being the worst thing pain wise ). Meanwhile some go through it without using painkillers. Seems like your either in no pain or the worst pain ever. Really daunting, and i don't know how you did it 3 times!

        That said - why did you have to pay out of pocket a second time on your first surgery if they didn't do the screw right? My worry is follow up procedures if you need manipulation, infection, complications etc.. i assume you have to pay for a whole new procedure. Therefore i'm wondering whether to go with a no gap provider… however while great surgeons the 'goto' guys who do the most acl and sporting teams/injuries are known gap providers.argh!

        By the way, how was your dislocating whilst waiting for the public system? Besides the first 4-6 weeks, i found by weeks 7/8 my walking gait is more normal, not fully, but i have been walking off cruthces after the 2nd or 3rd week. I dont get any 'instability', i just dont know what it is meant to feel like? The worst i get is stepping with an extended leg i have gotten recently one or two 'snap backs' where the leg hits hyperextension as i step down without thought. I think the lack of acl to hold it from hyperextending. I assume knee buckling/dislocation is completely different and you just crumble instead? Which is weird - if my acl is fully blown per the MRI i don't get why i am walking weak, not 100% but 'okish'. Do different people experience instability differently?? I just dont see how i can be any different to anyone as my acl is torn too. still holding onto some slim hope the mri missed a couple of strands there, or it will regrow/reattach. supposedly there are instances of this happening. which might not surprise me since i would have though the humanbody is programmed to recuperate…. and 300 years ago acl reconstructions never existed.

        any tips on what to prehab before surgery? I've heard stronger muscles will set you up for a faster recovery post op? Some say it doesn't mater as you'll waste away muscles anyway, but somehow I assume it's better to bulk up as much staminar or muscle strength prior?

        • squashedfrog on 22/12/2017 - 09:51

          Perhaps the east coast surgeons cost a lot more. I have naturally loose joints, which doesn't help when it comes to ACL. My elbows hyper-extend past the 180 normally (like murali) and my knees have more give when they do the typical ACL joint test by pulling on the lower leg in a bent position. Both hamstring and LARS graft snapped after a couple of years - possibly due to the fact I played soccer and cricket and also the above loose joints issue. When the joint dislocated, I felt a pop behind the knee which as you said, snapped back. When I originally did the ACL, I was actually wrong-footed and i felt a less painful pop in and out inside the knee. I think it was rather due to wear and tear than trauma.

          Regarding the hamstring graft:
          - I didn't have to pay anything out of pocket for 2nd surgery - apparently the surgeon had to talk to anaesthetist to not charge above the gap as they are independent.
          - Your leg will be in a brace for a while, it will prevent you from bending the knee during normal operations
          - You will be sore in both legs - obviously as the hamstring harvest is like a severe hamstring injury. Saying that, my 'good' leg till this day is fine.
          - They will try to get you up as soon as possible on crutches. When you stand up, blood rushes down the leg and you will feel a burning sensation in your knee and leg. It is not pleasant.
          - It took me almost a month to get off the crutches.
          - It took around a month to get my knee to bend past 90 degrees. Lots of physio.
          - Graft snapped after about 2 yrs. This is not to say they are not good, as they are proven to be relatively successful.

          LARS graft:
          - Less painful than hamstring graft
          - Was walking without crutches within a week
          - Still had to do all the physio, but recovery was faster than hamstring.
          - Despite being synthetic, it still snapped a few years later. I can understand the lure of professional sports people to go down this route.

          Patella graft
          - Most painful of all surgeries - First time that I had to actually call the nurse to help with the pain.
          - Was walking without crutches around 2 weeks I think.
          - I still feel soreness in the knee and sometimes there is swelling, but otherwise knee i think it pretty stable.

          Things to note:
          - Pain management is important as they will give you different pain killers - some of the stronger ones will leave you constipated.
          - During the first few weeks whilst in that knee/leg brace, it will be awkward to go to the toilet, take a shower, etc. Don't be afraid to ask for help. I had ppl tape a garbage bag around my leg for a shower.
          - To minimise infection of wounds, you do have to keep the area clean and dry. I experienced post op infection in one of my incision areas, but i think that was due to the fact my body was rejecting internal stitches.
          - Unless you depend on your knee to earn money - ie sports star, don't assume that it will be back to normal. Those stars have top physio and carers around the clock and even they take a year or so to get back to normal. For the rest of us, double that at least and try not to rush back into activities that may aggravate the injury.
          - You will lose muscle in quads and calves very quickly. It will become a wobbly mess so build it up as much as possible before the op. Post op physio will get you to do squats in time, and they suck. One leg squats on the bad leg are pretty much your goal.
          - Cycling and water exercise are probably the best for your knee, pre and post op. Saying that, I ran many fun runs / half marathons in between surgeries which didn't really hurt the knee, but probably wasn't the best because of the impact.

          My knee has never been the same and i would rate it at best 70%, but I as a father, I am happy that I am able to play with my kids at a relatively normal capacity. I miss competitive sport, but I don't want to go through another reco.

        • SaberX on 28/12/2017 - 16:46

          @squashedfrog:

          I don't think i have loose joints, but i do get a slight hyperextension in my good leg, which i haven't been able to get back in my acl deficient knee. It goes straight , but wont hyperextend when using my natural leg muscles. it can be physically hyperextended manually by the physio so he reckons then it isn't an issue. Elbows def straight to 180 and dont go past that for me …

          I see - it sounds like your acl tore as a result of your joint /knee dislocating rather than the acl directly being torn by impact or twisting etc. which is how many others like myself did it. I assume this was the case with both your LARS vs hamstring - both snapped not directly but as a result of the knee popping out? Did you get much meniscus and other ancillary damage as a result?

          What are your thoughts on LARS? The surgeon (if i go out of pocket rather than a no gap surgeon) i was considering does footy players here - west coast eagles, i'm thinking i'd be in safe hands going him. But supposedly he did my physio's mate (physio himself the guy who did the reconstruction) with a hybrid hamstring and LARS. Not sure if the LARS is too short a time period for evidence on how a foreign object integrates down there… and being a non professional sportsmen and no rush to be back on the footy field in 6-8 months perhaps it's not something i should consider.

          Regarding your points on your hamstring graft:

          -I've heard surgeons vary and that many go unbraced, others go simple splint/brace, and others are in a full locked/hardcore brace.
          -You mentioned both legs will be sore. So he grafted your good leg? My understanding is the graft is from the same ACL deficient knee. In fact that's what I was hoping/planning. It seems abit of a worse deal having two bad legs when trying to hobble around than one good leg dragging the bad?

          I've never had a severe hamstring injury so I can't relate to a torn muscle, or a pulled tendon etc. Is it like spraining your ankle on a mis step or slip? or far worse pain?

          -Good to hear your good leg still has no issues with hamstring long term. Like i said my main worry was robbing the hamstring to take the graft would fix one, but weaken the other. It's scary hearing of people who have regrets as they now can't even walk for more thn a good few minutes, or have chronic pain as a result of the hamstring graft.

          -Burning sensation: is it like pins and needles? Or far worse and painful, where it actual feels like burning?
          -With my acl injury in the initial week or two i found mass swelling drained to my calf and it was rock hard. pretty tender and uncomfortable. I assume the acl op results in far worse swelling and most pain comes from swelling than the incisions of the arthroscopy areas?

          -Any tips on things to prep before hand? I've been told a tubigrip is sufficient/all they use here in Aus by my physio. Yet overseas patients all talk about compression socks and TED stockings/compressions that go from toe to above your knee. I'm wondering whether to go against my physios advice and pre buy these.

          Same for ice machines. Overseas they have all the icemasters and the 'game ready' they talk about, where it circulates cold compression fluid. Yet my physio just suggestedd a manual wrap around one you fill with ice. My first surgeon said a bag of ice was as simple and effective as these complex machines. I find it hard to believe?

          Same for a CPM machine. they claim it isn't used here yet everyone overseas are on these from day 1 and swear their life on it?!

          Should i be buying a shower stool or anything for the toilet? I don't know why, but they say sitting on the toilet even hurts your hamstring, despite how far it is from the knee? I guess the tendon gets tugged on when you sit on your bum?

          • A month to bend past 90, but how long for full extension? When i first did my knee the first few weeks it was swollen and wouldn't bend past 90. I wasn't too fussed tbh. And i casually just kept bending it against slight pain, and day by day it got better. It was mostly the fluid behind the knee which i diagnosed as physically preventing the bend. Then it was the quads attaching to just above the kneecap where it's tight and 'creaky' when you haven't bent for a few weeks. but that's quickly overcome once you get past 90.

          Patella graft: my physio showed me his knee. Can touch it and feel the void hole.

          It seems patella was most painful, then hamstring, then LARS (which should be similar to a donor graft given your not cutting any grafts out of your body).

          Pain management:

          Should one just keep taking the strong ones and deal with constipation in the first few days? better no pain than to go light and end up in a world of pain?

          Any things to prepare in terms of anti constipation, or for wound healing? I saw on instagram people swearing by rubbing 'arnica cream' over scars?

          Pain wise - do you wake up in hospital in pain? What to expect? Ideally i'm hoping you fall asleep, wake up with a nerve block, then just keep taking regular pain killers and never go past a sore/uncomfortable sprain. What scares me is hearing of the 'agony' some guys mention despite having pain killers.

          I'm not sure how i can deal with extreme 8-10 pain scale, as i've never had surgery or pain. The acl tear was probably the worst in my life, but after the mind blocking pain initially, once i hobbled off it was never 'painful' again. just the sorenessa nd swollen /tenderness that accompanied the following weeks.

          -How long till you showered? Even with a bag around how do you logistically stand around? I assume i need a metal bar stool or something? Simple 4 legged, flat stool?

          -infection wise: so you need to change dressings and clean the areas yourself?
          -how have you overcome DVT/blood clot fears and risks? From what i hear being a first time patient i won't get blood thinning as i have no record of clots. Still scares me the thought of a pulmonary embolism or stroke etc if i clot. I'm just under 30 - not sure how old you were when you did all 3 grafts?

          -No worries on rushing back. I'd take a yr off to recover. once i can walk/run and all i'd focus on building muscle and other balance/movements that are non linear. then slow sessions at old sports. I'm worried i'll never have iron legs that i could twist and throw into new sports like snowboarding. I am a newbie so i hadn't learn the skills for that yet.

          The new acl is never as strong as the old right? So the risk of rupturing i assume even if you rebuild muscles to 100% or close to pre injury, will never be as strong?

          -Pre surgery: I am doing exercise bike, leg press, now started light jogging for 10 minutes, and do exercise ball bridges etc. Just building whatever leg muscle i can think of. Good to hear it helps building it up before op. I thought i was wasting my time as more muscle would mean more fat post-wastage and op.

          -Is the muscle wastage and weakness not the same as the few weeks after ACL injury? While i had extreme weakness in the knee muscles, i quickly built up on the bike etc. given i have no ACL now i figured it took me a couple of weeks to get stronger enough to gym comfortably. Post ACL surgery wouldn't it be the same? Except now i would have a weaker hamstring, whereas pre surgery i am rebuilding quads and an ungrafted hamstring.

          -Thanks for all your advice. Sad to hear that you feel 70%.. i don't think i'd expect 100% as your original body is always pain free and the best at the start. But i would have hoped post rehabilitation and a few years you'd regain muscle and functionality to 80% at least. Main thing: do you feel pain that's unmanageable or debilitating aspects many years on when doing common things like long runs, or long bouts of sports?

          i guess i will find out soon enough but the days of 2 or 3 hours of basketball and pushing it until every muscle is sore and tired are over? And that the knee will be the first thing to hurt? How i wish i could turn back time!!

          -Any further thoughts on the pain/experience from when you woke up post surgery? I think my main focus is on the pain in that first week, and dealing with rehabilitation and whatever loss of function comes about in the longer term (but realistically i don't expect to ever feel 100%, which is sad).

    • m8 on 21/12/2017 - 15:26
      -1

      6k for surgeon
      7k for priv hospital (1 night stay)
      1.5k for anesthetist

      • SaberX on 22/12/2017 - 03:11

        holy crap. it hought a private hospital is a couple of hundred a night? Don't understand how the cost is so high?? When i talk to my HBF provider i have no gap surgeons of $2.3k (quote i got) , however as they are no gap on HBF i pay nothing, but i decided ill see a nother surgeon who works out of a more renowned sports injury/acl related injury surgery.

        they are not on the hbf no gap list, so no agreements, but even then they charge the same ($2k or more) but HBF will only cover 700-1.2k depending on item code. so i'm out of pocket 1.2-1.5k i estimate, on surgeon alone. have heard from others who used them that this was all (so assuming anesthesist generally go by no gap rates).

        STill even without private health that's nowhere near 6k for a surgeon. Where are you based? DId you use one of those famous eastern state surgeons? Maybe for once somethings cheaper here in the west!

      • [Deactivated] on 22/12/2017 - 10:16

        7K for overnight stay? Rubbish.

  • Gronk on 21/12/2017 - 10:09
    +11

    Fully aware I'll probably get downvoted into oblivion over this comment, but there is an element of risk involved with martial any martial arts training, you chose to accept that risk by participating in the class.

    The fact that you're now pursuing them for compensation is a bit of a low act in my opinion, but it's just more proof that we live in a world where (allegedly) fully grown adults don't have to take responsibility for their own actions.

    • Autonomic on 21/12/2017 - 13:33
      -1

      It's entirely possible the risk wasn't adequately explained. I don't see why it's a problem to let the lawyers decide the nuances.

      • Gronk on 21/12/2017 - 14:48
        +2

        It was a martial arts class, so unless it was advertised incorrectly as a ballet recital or something along those lines I really don't see how that's possible.

        Sounds like OP is just in it for all they can get, people like them are the reason we can't have nice things.

        • Autonomic on 21/12/2017 - 16:56

          Sounds like they were trying out a complex move without being given any training. If it's a move that can easily cause damage without proper training and the instructor made a mistake, then that's on the instructor. Not saying that's what happened, but it's entirely possible.

        • Gronk on 21/12/2017 - 18:29

          That is possible, but it's also equally possible that OP's own actions contributed to the injury, neither of us were there so we'll probably never know for certain.

          What I do know is that the clubs I've trained at previously took the health and wellbeing of their students very seriously and would not put them in the situation you've described above. More difficult or risky moves are only taught to students who have reached a certain level, but there's also a general air of respect whereby as a student you do everything within your power to ensure that you don't injure your training partners.

          I've racked up a fair few injuries over the years, as a matter of fact I'm due to get one of my knees done again next year, but will be paying for that out of my own pocket.

  • pformag on 21/12/2017 - 12:06
    -1

    Did your ACL? You don't need surgery. Huge report coming out early next year on the scam that is surgery for ACL.

    • wallet72 on 21/12/2017 - 13:01

      that's not entirely true.

      Studies have shown that there is increased instability in patients that have not had ACL reconstruction. ACL repairs also speed up recovery time.

      You can do without the surgery but the recovery to full use is much longer and as I said there are other complications. In fact studies have shown that a majority of people that did not get ACL reconstructions straight away, get them eventually to fix the other problems.

      Now, if you mean meniscus surgery - that has a 100% result of arthritis in patients that have the surgery and it really should not be done without a serious reason.

      • pformag on 21/12/2017 - 13:05

        Yeah, can't say too much, but new research coming out early next year. Huge implications for the industry. Will be in the news and a few lawsuits to match.

    • peterpeterpumpkin on 21/12/2017 - 13:15

      That's interesting. Do you have a link to the trials or maybe the original ads looking for subjects?

      I already know of the unflattering results found in meniscectomy and debridement studies. Although there's never a one fits all approach, all this failure is bad news for knee pain sufferers, but good for me as an OzBargainer when it comes to surgery. Hopefully orthobioligics or some other technology fill the gap.

    • opti on 21/12/2017 - 17:49

      I would like to see this report, as a person who had an ACL rupture. My knee was unstable as hell, I cant imagine not getting it fixed, sure you can still run in a straight line, but soon as you do a pivot motion it could pop out again. I know some people just did heaps of strength and conditioning to build muscle and compensate for it. But every time that thing pops out your doing damage..

      • SaberX on 23/12/2017 - 15:57

        i haven't pivoted or tried sport but 1-2 months on from my acl rupture i feel a quiver (lack of muscle srength) on say stairs down and on weight bearing heavy loads… i think it was the damage from atrophy after the injury… given the acl is inside the knee and the quiver is muscle load.

        but i can imagine if your popping out (which im not) the tearing of ligaments, cartilige and meniscus each time is a good reason to do the acl. For me i dont have that which is the scary part of 'electively' doing acl recon. i want to have one for any sports or 'activities' , where even a 70% better knee is better than one with no acl i think… but yeah the minisectomy part - they do it when you go into your knee so you don't even know what will happen ahead of time.

        others say they've been better off doing it, as tears would get bigger otherwise, or leg was locking. my knee doesn't lock, abit of pain past 90 degrees and weight loading, but otherwise no pain on meniscus. just curious if you should request they don't clean up any menisectomy related items when int here?

        Would like to see this supposed research. then again everything changes. just like they said alcohols bad, then wine is good, then coffee is bad, now coffee is good - unfortunately in 200 years we may say getting surgery was good or bad for the acl too.. we can only act on what the medical profession knows currently.

        at least we live in an arthroscopic society now and not open knee surgery.

  • lonewolf on 21/12/2017 - 15:08
    +1

    I have been injured numerous times from the many different sports / sporting comps i play in, alot of it would be due to bad fields or wet field etc. Or at least part of the issue would be that, I have never once gotten anything from the comp or organisation. They do have insurance but really you dont get much unless you die or end up with some extreme injury, its usually better to just go with your own insurance.

    If I got 5k, i would be ecstatic. I have seen many serious knee injuries and knee reconstructions from these comps or sports, not a single one of them ever claimed or pursued the comp organiser. Its an accepted risk of the sports.

  • TRAVELO on 21/12/2017 - 15:33

    5K… Businesses dealing with the public would have public liability insurance and that's usually 5, 10 or 20 million.

  • HeWhoKnows on 24/12/2017 - 17:27

    Dear OP.
    The only useful advise offered here is what I said.
    Get some professional advise that wont cost you a brass razoo.

    Mod: Removed legal firm contact details

    The rest of these uninformed and unsympathetic opinions are of no use to you.
    Too many self proclaimed know-it-alls here

    Good luck

    • Ayanami on 24/12/2017 - 17:35

      You act as though you're the only one on here who told him to get legal advice.

      • HeWhoKnows on 24/12/2017 - 17:58
        -1

        No not really. But the number of fools here indicating its not worth pursing or not ethical because they dont do it is unbeliveable.

        • Ayanami on 24/12/2017 - 18:06

          Agreed.

      • lonewolf on 25/12/2017 - 07:45

        Nah he's just one of those kiddies hiding behind his keyboard

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