Consumer rights on a return

MrMoo on 30/01/2018 - 22:49
Last edited 31/01/2018 - 10:27

Hi friends

We run an embroidery service and a customer has requested a full refund on some shirts because there are some small distortions/pressure marks in the material where the embroidery was done.

They are hard to make out but are noticeable if you look for them.

Here is an example of what it might look like

https://sewguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/rose-embroid…

You can see distortions at the edge of the embroidery. This is not a common occurrence but can happen depending on the image and the material of the shirt.

We as a business feel that the shirts still fully perform their duty, the logos are done as per customers requirements and as a result we have supplied a fully functional product.

The customer feels due to the distortions they are unacceptable and wants a full refund on the product.

Are we as a business wrong here or is the customer being unreasonable?

Also legally where do we stand? Thanks

Personal Thought
The customer needed them by a certain date. There may of been an opening or re branding or a show? Not sure what.

In most cases if the puckering does happen customers point it out but opt to keep the shirts because they have them already and the puckering is almost negligible. Returning the shirts is pointless because they have to go out and buy more shirts. They obviously needed the shirts for the business. Is it possible they wanted to use it for an event and are attempting to get a full refund? Or am i thinking too much?

General Discussion

Comments

  • MisterX on 01/02/2018 - 07:44
    +1

    Partial Refund.

  • HumbleCat on 01/02/2018 - 09:24
    +3

    Give full refund if they return it, partial if they want to keep it. Think of it as a learning experience to show these images and make your refund policy airtight.

  • BEPS13 on 01/02/2018 - 11:02
    -5

    I wouldn't refund.

    The people telling you to above live in a fantasy land with zero real life experience in small business or running an operation. You did the work, you incurred the costs to do so and with such a large logo these things can happen. If you lack a sufficient disclaimer in your terms and conditions, the only learning i would take is you now include one. If you don't have T&C, make some.

    They are not going to the ACCC. The worst is they are posting a goolge review. Even if they did, what you have shown above looks passable and is most certainly not cause to hand over the full purchase price.

    You paid your costs in relation to producing the above. You are not going to be successful if you bend over every time someone complains. Decline, move on.

    • ChickenTalon on 01/02/2018 - 12:41
      +3

      Well, the person running the business should have foreseen this and made the customer fully aware of the potential problems with the finished product. The seller has the expert knowledge. Me, I'd be pretty pissed with that job from the photo if I wasn't made aware of the potential problems. Those creases would look pretty bad as the feature on a shirt. Wouldn't take it to the ACCC as it's not their job to look at individual cases and settle matters. The correct place to go is Fair Trading in the seller's state (NSW), if it was me & $500 I'd take the 5 minutes to submit a complaint form online.

      My understanding of the ACL and Consumer Guarantees would definitely indicate the buyer is entitled to a refund (the embroidery) AND compensation for damage or loss (the shirts).
      These consumer protections also apply to small business purchases in some instances (under 40k). BUT don't apply "if goods are purchased to be resold or to be transformed into a product that is sold."

      My advice to the OP; Make a reasonable offer of compensation to try and settle it, because I think you'll find yourself on the wrong side of this argument.

      • Best case: they accept some compensation and if you're conciliatory they'll understand the position you're in too. And then there is the OzBargain way I'd deal with it…. perhaps they'll accept another form of compensation??? what else can you offer them which is cheap for you to provide (say, more embroidery) and expensive for them to source? Think of the additional benefit to your business should this customer turn into an advocate.
      • Worst case: bad reviews which you won't be able to dispute, as the customer will have evidence. You'll end up paying anyway. You'll waste further time in mediation. You will do particularly badly with Fair Trading if you can't show that you have attempted to resolve the issue.

      Put the costs down to a learning experience and next time a tricky job comes up be clear, in writing, about the limitations of your service. One way to do this would be to have a check-box on your order form for this type of scenario. Where the embroidery is complicated and/or on delicate material you can mark it to show that you've made the customer aware. then have them initial it. Similar to the way airlines accept luggage which they deem to be risky to carry, improperly packed or pre-damaged.

      Good luck, tough running a small business. (I know!)

  • ronnknee on 01/02/2018 - 12:41

    Was it made clear to the customer before the purchase that this could occur and it's just part of the printing process?

  • sjj89 on 01/02/2018 - 13:49

    Imagine you take your car to be repainted, and it comes back to you with dents around the body. This is the same situation, but with attire. Th customer supplied you with shirts for you to modify, and your company damaged them.

    • cloudy on 01/02/2018 - 16:18
      +1

      Imagine you run a personal trainer business promising 6 pack abs, the client you have ends up with a 6 pack abs but complains about being tired and sore after every session with you, and that wasn’t what he expected or was after. Causing him significant time off work. Are you liable?

      I’m not saying my example is a good example, I’m just putting it out there coz u seem to have done the same. :)

      • sjj89 on 02/02/2018 - 13:38

        You're just being facetious

        • cloudy on 02/02/2018 - 21:21
          +3

          two reasonable people can disagree on the same thing. If you can not accept anothers view you are just arrogant.

        • nahi11 on 03/02/2018 - 13:53

          @cloudy:
          Hitler was a great person.

        • cloudy on 03/02/2018 - 18:22

          @nahi11:

          And I disagree. But let's not mean we can not be friends, just be open to changing of minds.

  • Shwayne on 01/02/2018 - 13:55

    From my understanding this can be considered a 'minor problem' if you did not explicitly advertise the potential issues with embroidery (fully disclose that this would be the case).

    As it is a minor problem, in Australia the business is expected to repair the fault if possible (within a reasonable timeframe), and failing that pay for the repair work performed by another crafts place, offer a full refund or replacement, or offer compensation for the drop in value based on the difference in expectation.

    https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees…

    This can easily be avoided in the future by providing a disclaimer, that clearly states that "Puckering may occur due to the nature of embroidery and may not be completely avoided." and providing some examples would come a long way.

    Naturally if your customers are unhappy it will affect your business in the long term, so it may be in your best interest to make a best effort to deliver what they truly need.

    My advice is to offer a replacement, or compensate them for the perceived damage. Then update your disclaimers.

  • Krizy on 01/02/2018 - 15:58
    -1

    Are you joking? Just say it's normal and move on. You're running a business, you should be focusing on that. If there were something wrong with the shirts I'd say different, but it seems like you're just dealing with a sour person.

  • akashra on 01/02/2018 - 18:10
    +1

    The question you need to answer is "would they have purchased the item if they had known the defect would be present?"

    If the answer is "no", then you most likely need to offer a refund or replacement.

  • syousef on 01/02/2018 - 18:22
    +1

    EDIT: Wife who owns an embroidery machine and does it for friends disagrees with me. She says design on that image is too heavy with too many stitches and most thin fabrics will pucker like that. In this area of expertise I'd take what she says over my ramble below. Which makes the mistake not warning the customer and managing the expectation.

    Original post:

    This to me looks like what happens when someone drops $1200 on an embroidery machine and decide that they can now run a business. Either the machine you have sucks, the knowledge and skill in using the machine sucks, or the shirts you're working with suck. If you're going to continue, fix the problem for the future. If you can't produce commercial quality stuff, you need to learn how to or get out and do something you're good at. FYI my old home ec teacher will testify under oath that I can't sew to save my life, nevermind embroider, and there's no shame in that. But I wouldn't start a business doing it.

    If you supplied the shirts, keep them and give a full refund on the proviso (in writing) that you're permitted to sell them with the logo attached. Then sell them as is at a discount to recover some cost. People will buy shirts with a random logo and a little puckering if it saves them a few dollars.

    If the customer supplied the shirts, provide the embriodery at cost, not taking into consideration time spent and labour. That should be close to the amount you're charging anyway - something in the vicinity of an 80% refund.

    • Baysew on 08/02/2018 - 10:17

      OP has not given us a picture of the actual logo and shirt.

      Here is an example of what it might look like

      • syousef on 08/02/2018 - 10:44

        If you're going to correct someone, please make sure you are correct.

        That is NOT the "actual logo and shirt". That is an example of what the pulling looks like on a different design. It is similar to the pulling he got on the job he did.

        A company logo is subject to IP law and can't just be reproduced without the company's permission. Why do you think Maccas are able to force OzB to take down their logo?

        • Baysew on 08/02/2018 - 12:24

          It is pointless providing a picture of what something might look like.

        • syousef on 08/02/2018 - 12:25

          @Baysew:

          I didn't provide the picture. Take that up with the OP.

        • Baysew on 08/02/2018 - 12:29

          @syousef: I wish someone would.

        • syousef on 08/02/2018 - 12:31

          @Baysew:

          I'm guessing he provided that picture as an example of the kind of problem the customer is complaining about which wouldn't open him up to legal action by the customer.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/02/2018 - 18:48
    +1

    If the finished product was below what a reasonable person would reasonably expect to get, then yes you owe them a refund.

    If youre trying to find some loophole to get out of doing a shit job, shame, shame, shame.

  • Chewiebacca on 01/02/2018 - 19:41

    They supplied the t-shirts, it’s not reasonable to expect you to be certain that the shirts would or would not pucker as these are not your product, to use the car analogy somebody brought up earlier it’s as if somebody gave a bogged up panel to you and is upset that the resprayed panel isn’t what they expected, paint and technique is fine it’s the material/bog that causes the issue, you aren’t expected to guarantee a panel that wasn’t of your work/knowledge.

    If it were your own t-shirts, unless every single one of the shirts look absolutely horrible then they should be due for partial compensation for each t-shirt that wasn’t embroidered to a satisfactory standard.

  • Krizy on 01/02/2018 - 22:23

    I want to add that if they supplied the t-shirts, then they share responsibility for the quality of the final product. They provided the materials materials for you to perform a value-adding service, so it is either a service-customer relationship or a business-business relationship. In neither case are you a retailer; at most they can claim the service or task was not performed. Evidence the labour and materials that you allocated from your business' resources towards performing the service, if you want to be cautious.

    The commenters here have put themselves in the shoes of your customer and asked themselves what they would expect if they felt wronged by a business. Their advice is sound so long as you assume that there is an injustice to be corrected. However they describe an unlikely hypothetical — that an Ozbargainer would feel slighted for a negligible difference in quality. What bargain hunter in their right mind really gives a damn about 'puckering'?

  • nobarginsarehere on 01/02/2018 - 23:20
    -3

    Give him his money back, tell him you will no longer be accepting their business

    Costs you not that much and you will never have to deal with that (profanity) again (or his friends he tells about your business)

    • useruser on 03/02/2018 - 03:35
      -1

      You should never tell customers, past, present or future, to go ******______ . As a business you should be professional and that means being courteous and respectful. By all means stand your ground if you feel that's the right thing but explain your reasoning and remain calm in doing so. No good will ever come from turning customers away.

      • nobarginsarehere on 03/02/2018 - 08:36

        I NEVER said to tell the customer to go (profanity) themselves, I said to give him a full refund and not accept his business again

        Your reply below (in this thread) makes me think you have more of a dog in the fight than my comment, so I take no offense to your misinterpretation

        • useruser on 03/02/2018 - 18:14
          -1

          You're just playing with words, in the world of customer service doing what you suggest is no different. Dog's, fight's, whatever..

        • nobarginsarehere on 03/02/2018 - 19:32

          @useruser: I suggested refunding and not doing business with them again, I hope you understand these words

  • alxr0101 on 02/02/2018 - 03:04
    +1

    Not a "major" failure. No grounds for a full refund unless the work is dramaticalky sub standard or not to defined specifications of the client.

  • No ONE on 02/02/2018 - 07:44

    What about the damage on the shirt? Better refund.

  • berry580 on 02/02/2018 - 17:39

    It's not a major failure, there is no obligation to provide a refund. You make it you choose to at your discretion.

    But I doubt they'd win should they take it to fair trading.

    • HumbleCat on 03/02/2018 - 13:17

      Its a stock image. Do you really think they won't win? People win even if the shade of color of a shirt is slightly off.

      The OP has hinted the customer needed them for a business event and also there are numerous shirts. Which means it could possibly be a business like a catering service or the hosts that needed them. The business community is even smaller and a bad reputation will hurt. Plus we don't know the sums involved. If it's significant then go fair trade otherwise refund and keep reputation. Terms and conditions can be revised and customers informed in advance what may happen.

  • hasher22 on 03/02/2018 - 00:16

    To be honest, I can't see any fault in the stitching etc. Then again, I have an untrained eye. They look fine.

    But if the fine print states distortion is normal depending on materials used, then the customer can't ask for a refund.

    But as other said, it's not a major defect, up to you to refund the customer, or give them a partial refund.

    • HumbleCat on 03/02/2018 - 13:02

      There was no fine print and the image is stock.

  • useruser on 03/02/2018 - 03:31
    -2

    If you ask me it looks like a bad design and the result is amateurish. The main fabric looks more like a cheap tablecloth or handkerchief than a quality shirt.

    As the business taking on the job you should probably be more responsible for quality control and just don't use cheap fabrics. Likewise if it's a bad design, either aesthetically or because you know it will suffer from puckering, then don't take on the job. Inform the customer of the issues and let them decide how to proceed. Lessons to learn for the future.

    What to do now? in my view this is just poor work. If you think it's the customers design that's the problem and that they insisted on it, as you said changes were made to the design, then you can argue that, but otherwise my opinion is that this one is one you.

    Learn from the mistakes, take it on the chin, and improve your processes for the future to ensure that poor work like this doesn't leave your door. Best of luck.

    • HumbleCat on 03/02/2018 - 13:17
      +1

      Its a stock image

      'Here is an example of what it might look like'

      • useruser on 03/02/2018 - 18:09
        -1

        Yes, it's an example, as in it's also representative of what was sold. If it's anything like that pic then it's of poor quality.

  • ladybug1 on 03/02/2018 - 03:35
    +7

    You should post a pic of the actual work you've done, not an example from somewhere else.

  • Geryatric on 03/02/2018 - 09:35
    +1

    Charge them the Amazon 80% restocking fee for the return…

  • pinchies on 03/02/2018 - 13:49
    +2

    I used to work at a particular "fruit" technology company. Our t-shirts all had the company logo embroidered. They had slight puckering - I think it is completely normal, and more complex designs will suffer more. I'd recommend mentioning this to customers in the future, to set the right expectations. If you think this could have been avoided by being more careful, then I would offer the customer some kind of refund. If you don't, then I would stand your ground as this being normal – but perhaps refund a small amount to acknowledge you should have advised them of this possiblity.

  • Tony76 on 03/02/2018 - 16:25

    Who supplied the shirts? Customer? It's on them. You? Try and fix it as best as you can. I'm sure you could do a reasonable fix with a bit of gentle stretching and ironing. Put it down to a learning curve.

  • Quantumcat on 08/02/2018 - 10:02

    What did you end up doing OP and what was the result?

    • MrMoo on 08/02/2018 - 18:35
      +1

      A partial refund was offered but result TBA

      Appreciate every ones help!

      • whooah1979 on 17/03/2018 - 13:24
        +1

        do you've an update?

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