Dog Food & Hip Dysplasia- Transitioning from Hills to Ivory Coat/Blackhawk + Supplements

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  bargainhunter87 on 04/01/2019 - 13:49

  +2

  I don't know the answer but hats off for taking good care of your dogs!

• 

  NigelTufnel on 04/01/2019 - 14:07

  +1

  have an English Cocker Spaniel

  Looking at these stats from my 40kg dog who is fed 550g per day

  I missed the part where you mentioned the German Shepherd. Thought you had a 40kg cocker spaniel!

  I reckon something like Ivory Coat Ocean Fish and Salmon would be a good base to go from to bump the Omega-3 up without supplements. Salmon as a main ingredient should go along way with that. Not sure what the 'Min 0.5%' and 'Min 3%' refer to in mg though…
  Good on you for checking it out and taking good care of your pets. Might save a few $ in the process.

  • 

    teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 14:13

    Haha I can only imagine.

    Thanks mate. Yeah hopefully they play ball and give me the numbers.

• 

  Starlight8 on 04/01/2019 - 15:01

  I kinda got lost reading…

  I'm still feeding my guy Blackhawk but due to the last media report (Black Hawk Salmon) I'm going to switch to Royal Canin.

  I've heard good things about Ivory Coat if that helps :)

  Also, I feed my guy canned Tuna, Salmon and Sardines to boost his Omega intake.. that may help your furbaby :)

  • 

    Gandalf the Thrifty on 04/01/2019 - 15:39

    Black Hawk issue was one product in their range

    Do you think tinned fish would be too salty for dogs?

    • 

      Starlight8 on 04/01/2019 - 17:03

      Yup i know… but i feel like my guy doesnt really like Blackhawk too..

      I buy the springwater tins so not salty at all :)

  • 

    docians on 04/01/2019 - 16:06

    I'm going to switch to Royal Canin

    Avoid royal Canin, save your money
    RC has heaps of cheap fillers.
    Ivory Coat/ Canidae/ stay loyal/ applaws etc are heaps better and around the same price point

    • 

      Starlight8 on 04/01/2019 - 17:05

      Cheap fillers? Really … where did you read this?

      Hmmm.. i might need to reconsider my options.. my guy is still on the BHawk Puppy but he turns 1 in 24 days.. So I was thinking Royal Canin Adult - he's had the RC Puppy and loved it…

      • 

        docians on 04/01/2019 - 17:35

        Cheap fillers? Really … where did you read this?

        at the back of the bag- ingredient list

        dehydrated poultry protein, rice, wheat, maize, maize gluten, animal fats, vegetable protein isolate*, hydrolysed animal proteins, vegetable fibres, beet pulp, yeasts, fish oil, minerals, soya oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, psyllium husks and seeds, hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), borage oil (0.1%), green tea extracts (source of polyphenols), marigold extract (source of lutein), hydrolysed cartilage (source of chondroitin).

        chicken meal would be a better option, as the cooking process with dehydrated poultry would reduce the protein content further

        then there is rice wheat, corn, corn gluten, animal fats, psyllium husks
        don't even know what borage oil is

        remember it is not an inexpensive food, yet filled with cheap ingredients
        the other foods I have mentioned are priced similarly but have much better ingredients

        RC have cornered the market by fooling people into believing that they have different shaped kibble for different breeds, yet when you look at the ingredients it is filled with the same rubbish
        Since they are owned by a multinational, Mars, they have the advertising muscle to make us believe otherwise

        • 

          Starlight8 on 04/01/2019 - 18:11

          @docians: Thanks so much for the insight.

          I've actually never read the ingredients as I just trusted the brand itself.

          Advertising definitely got me. I shall consult with the husband =)

        • 

          teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 20:27

          @docians: Borage oil is a source of omega 3 :)

          From another comment on here some grains are beneficial
          Regarding rice and sorghum

          The result is a good combination of quickly released energy from the high GI rice, balanced by the low GI sorghum giving sustained energy.

          I haven't researched it

          • 

            docians on 04/01/2019 - 21:08

            @teacherer: @science teacher
            I'd take those comments with a pound of salt

            See here
            https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/241255

            Same person advertising/ sockpuppeting

            The food suewsuew refers to has tallow among other fillers

            • 

              teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 21:08

              @docians: I had a feeling

  • 

    teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 20:31

    Thanks debe.
    Tinned tuna has around 300mg and sardines 450mg. The dogs share one once a day.
    Unfortunately, not quite 15000mg like hills food, or the recommended 8000mg.

• 

  docians on 04/01/2019 - 15:20

  great effort science teacher!
  will comment in detail later

  for now from one of the links you posted

  Carbs are high-glycemic index foods that fuel the production of advanced glycation end (AGE) products. These AGEs form when food is processed and they stimulate inflammation. When your dog eats processed foods (kibble), AGEs get released into the body and cause inflammation.

  another fantastic reason to fill foods with cheap carb laden fillers- actually speed up inflammation!
  then when the joints are stuffed switch to prescription diets. kaching!

  also I remember reading an article (have to look for it) correlating sterilisation of dogs and onset of arthritis
  esp in male dogs, and more commonly in large breeds, early sterilisation leads to early onset of arthritis (something about testosterone signal leading to closure of ossification centres; early sterilisation under 18 months of age, will lead to lack of this testosterone signal, will result in a taller dog with more pressure on joints and early onset arthritis)

  • 

    docians on 04/01/2019 - 17:40

    the ingredients I have listed are for adult lab

    the ingredients for Daschund are:
    Dehydrated poultry protein, rice, corn, vegetable protein isolate*, animal fats, beet pulp, hydrolysed animal proteins, minerals, soya oil, fish oil, fructo-oligosaccharides, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-oligo-saccharides), marigold extract (source of lutein), hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), hydrolysed cartilage (source of chondroitin)

    not much better!
    and other breeds are similar

    TL DR
    these "premium foods" have cheap fillers, with potential allergens eg wheat
    when your dog develops allergies, you can switch to their sensitive formula, which is more expensive, and lacks these allergens
    kaching!

    • 

      Gandalf the Thrifty on 04/01/2019 - 19:02

      when your dog develops allergies, you can switch to their sensitive formula, which is more expensive, and lacks these allergens

      HILLS prescription allergy diet had modified proteins, as some dogs can have allergy to chicken protein which seems to be in most food in some form. Was crazy expensive.

      Other brands without filler need have more meat protein, so tend to cost lot more. Eg Ziwi Peak which is pretty much just meat.

      • 

        docians on 04/01/2019 - 21:30

        Was crazy expensive

        Or switch to a chicken free formula?

        Ivory Coat, canidae all have chicken free formulae.

        And they don't cost a whole lot more than royal Canin or hills regular

        Perhaps you missed the sarcasm when I said switch from hills to hills prescription

        • 

          Gandalf the Thrifty on 04/01/2019 - 21:44

          @docians: Nah I just read the tldr one ;)
          We on Black Hawk now. The prescription diet was only for couple months.

          My understanding was the one we were on contained no true animal proteins of any sort, as they had been modified so couldn't cause any allergies.

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  overkillxx on 04/01/2019 - 15:21

  Another supplement to consider is Hyaluronic acid. My Mum takes this for her arthritis and swears by it. Condrotin & Glucosamine didn't do a thing.. No idea about this for pets though

  • 

    teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 16:23

    Thanks overkill, I saw plenty of good info for Hyaluronic acid, not fussed on an anti inflammatory at this stage though. Unfortunately the ones I saw with that in it didn't look too friendly, lots of chemicals I didnt recognise and wasnt sure on toxicity to dogs etc.
    Thank you.

• 

  suewsuew on 04/01/2019 - 18:10

  -1

  Hi, we are actually breeders of German Shepherds for over 40 years.

  Briefly, Sashas Blend is very good as a supplement from recommendations (we've never had reason to use).

  40kg may be a little heavy. The biggest favours you can do your boy are keep him very lean and swim him.

  Not sure where you are located but we only feed and only recommend to our clients a food made here in Fremantle. http://delicatecare.com.au

  This is an excerpt from an email I received recently from them. We have only used their product for many years and have been recipients of the Top Breeders Trophy Nationally. OUr male is the top long coat Germans Shepherd in Australia at the moment and is fed solely on their feed and no supplements whatsoever. You can see from this how much care they put into their product. They are always tweaking as new information comes to hand.

  "As we have such good acceptance of our Natural Balance High Energy, Professor Costa has chosen to make very few changes to the formulation. The base is still lamb, duck and rice, but a proportion of the rice has been replaced with sorghum. The result is a good combination of quickly released energy from the high GI rice, balanced by the low GI sorghum giving sustained energy. Other changes include lifting the protein to 28% (from 26%), and fat to 14% (from 12%), thus providing slightly higher energy. A new inclusion in this formulation is the Algal DHA which studies have shown to increase the trainability of pups. We have also changed the shape of this kibble from the flower shape to a disc shape. With the similarity in ingredients a transition period should not be required for most dogs.

  The other two formulations in the Breeder Range have had some more significant changes. The Natural Balance Regular Energy has gone from “Lamb, Duck and Rice” to “Duck, Sorghum and Chick Peas”. With healthy adult dogs the change from Rice to Sorghum is significant because of the low GI status of sorghum. In addition, Sorghum is also low allergy, gluten free and easily sourced locally. This formulation has been enhanced by the inclusion of antioxidants in the form of turmeric and blueberries. The original formulation of the Natural Balance Lite Energy was “Lamb, Duck and Rice” and is now “Lamb, Sorghum and Chick Peas” The big changes to the Lite Energy are the move away from the rice being high GI to the low GI sorghum as well as including MCT’s (Medium Chain Triglycerides) which are easily metabolized into energy in the form of ketones. MCT’s are unique fats that are not able to be stored as body fat. The feeding guide on the revised Lite Energy has also been adjusted to account for the lower amount of exercise that older dogs are more commonly getting"

  • 

    docians on 04/01/2019 - 22:28

    @suewsuew

    we are actually breeders of German Shepherds for over 40 years
    We have only used their product for many years and have been recipients of the Top Breeders Trophy Nationally.

    Sorry that does not make you experts on nutrition, just like a super model can't claim that eating a particular brand of cornflakes has resulted in her wonderful looks.

    The original formulation of the Natural Balance Lite Energy was “Lamb, Duck and Rice” and is now “Lamb, Sorghum and Chick Peas”

    the more plausible explanation is that duck and rice costs a bit more than sorghum and chick peas

    A new inclusion in this formulation is the Algal DHA which studies have shown to increase the trainability of pups

    which studies? conducted by whom? care to share which journals they have been published by. If true, I wonder if I can feed this wonder product to my children as it will help them at school

    Went to the website you suggested
    checked out the adult formula which the website says has premium ingredients

    top five ingredients

    Sorghum, Duck Meal, Chick Peas, Tallow, Sugar Beet Pulp

    sorry since when have sorghum, chick peas, tallow, and sugar beet pulp been considered premium ingredients

    definitions

    Beef tallow is obtained from the tissue of cattle in the commercial process of rendering. Highly palatable, very cheap, poorly digestible and very low in linoleic acid. Inferior product compared to chicken fat or quality vegetables.

    a common ingredient in food rich in grain, added to improve taste

    sugar beet pulp
    Beet pulp is the residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned, freed from crowns, leaves, and sand, and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. Controversial ingredient, believed to contribute to excessive red eye-staining. Added as an artificial stool-hardener. No nutritional value.

    Apart from duck meal, there are no premium ingredients
    Please check with Dr Costa as to why he considers sorghum, chick peas, tallow, and sugar beet pulp to be premium ingredients

    Not sure where you are located but we only feed and only recommend to our clients a food made here in Fremantle. http://delicatecare.com.au

    that's funny back in 2016 you were swearing by Natural Balance, which I think has been renamed to delicate care

    and here is a review of Natural Balance, on a site you claimed wrongly was American
    https://www.petfoodreviews.com.au/dry-dog-food/natural-balan…

    • 

      teacherer on 04/01/2019 - 23:43

      #rekt

• 

  Slinky0111 on 05/01/2019 - 09:05

  Thankyou for the interesting read! Will be keeping an eye on this thread.

  My border collie had the surgery for hip dysplasia and is a little on the chubby side now. Currently he is on the Kirkland signature nature's domain dog food which doesn't get too bad reviews. https://www.petfoodreviews.com.au/dry-dog-food/kirkland-sign…

  Keen to know what your final decision will be.

  • 

    teacherer on 05/01/2019 - 10:58

    @Docians

    ingredients

    Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, dried beet pulp, potatoes, fish meal, flaxseed, natural flavor, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, carrots, peas, dried kelp, apples, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus reuteri fermentation product, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

    Guaranteed Analysis:
    Crude Protein 26% Minimum
    Crude Fat 16% Minimum
    Crude Fiber 4% Maximum
    Moisture 10% Maximum
    Calcium 1.0% Minimum
    Phosphorus 0.8% Minimum
    Zinc 200 mg/kg Minimum
    Selenium 0.35 mg/kg Minimum
    Vitamin E 150 IU/kg Minimum
    Omega-6 Fatty Acids 2.5% Minimum
    Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% Minimum
    Glucosamine* 300 mg/kg Minimum
    Chondroitin sulfate* 100 mg/kg Minimum
    Total Microorganisms* Not Less Than 1,000,000 CFU/lb
    (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium animalis, Lactobacillus reuteri)*

• 

  docians on 05/01/2019 - 19:27

  @science teacher

  Dr Brunke

  Notice that we’re discussing glucosamine hydrochloride, here, not glucosamine sulfate. Although glucosamine sulfate is absorbed better, there have been no studies published showing that glucosamine sulfate actually shows up in synovial tissue after it’s been ingested orally. A joint supplement doesn’t help if it doesn’t get where it needs to be.

  does your food/ tablets have glucosamine hydrochloride or sulphate?

  Does it work? A randomized, double-blind, positive-controlled, multicenter trial assessed 35 dogs with confirmed osteoarthritis of the hip or elbow for their response to orally administered glucosamine hydrochloride and chondroitin sulfate

  that would be 18 dogs on glucosamine and 17 on placebo or vice versa; could we extrapolate this data to the rest of the canine world. Would it be a reliable study with only 35 dogs?

  Dr. Brunke recommends a dosage of 100 mg/kg combined EPA and DHA (omega 3) for osteoarthritis.

  that would make omega 3 4000mg for your 40kg dog; or perhaps only 2 tablets instead of the 9 which matched with JD?

  lastly those ingredients point to a decent food. If you could stretch your dollar, go grain free @$6 per kilo. Otherwise it is not a bad food

  • 

    teacherer on 05/01/2019 - 19:33

    The distinction between hydrochloride and sulfate is up for debate. Different links have provided vastly different info.

    Frankly, feeding the 4 (gluc/chond/mang/vitc) would have been way too expensive to feed seperate and the only Glucosamine hcl was without the man/vitc or in a form with lots of extra ingredients including sodium borate.

    Thanks for looking in

• 

  docians on 10/01/2019 - 14:06

  here is a link to another study where a Rheumatologist says Glucosamine and chondroitin are a waste of money
  1600 subjects were studied at multiple centres over 3 years

  this is different to the dog study which studied 35 dogs and concluded that these supplements were beneficial!
  (at this point you wonder if there was any vested interest in the 35 dog study, probably done at one lab)

  Humans live longer and there is a greater deal of impact on the joints
  I would think obesity in dogs is less common than in humans

  https://www.acsh.org/news/2014/11/13/glucosaminechondroitin-…

  This is from Arthritis Australia

  More than half of all people with arthritis in Australia take supplements or natural therapies for their condition. Of these, around 60 per cent take omega-3 fish oils and glucosamine, while about 13 per cent take chondroitin.¹¹¹
  Evidence relating to the efficacy of glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate is mixed and mostly of poor quality and the effectiveness of these agents in OA treatment remains a matter of controversy.115 Currently there is insufficient evidence regarding the benefits of fish oil in OA

  Yet if you walk into a pharmacy chances are that they would be pushed

  • 

    NigelTufnel on 10/01/2019 - 15:34

    Humans live longer and there is a greater deal of impact on the joints
    I would think obesity in dogs is less common than in humans

    A lot more inbreeding in dogs though… :-P

• 

  docians on 10/01/2019 - 15:30

  Another study this one published in 2018
  https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/57/suppl_4/iv7…

  Available evidence does not support some widely used supplements such as glucosamine and chondroitin for OA.

  Omega 3/ fish oil/ krill oil no better

• 

  Lady Grey Tea on 23/02/2019 - 20:46

  Hope you don't mind reopening the discussion, but now it's been a month on, can I ask what you eventually choose to buy/feed your pets and whether you have noticed any difference in their health after the food switch?

  I'm in a similar situation with a dog that has been on J/D for a long time, but am researching new food due to concerns about the filler ingredients in Hills.

  • 

    teacherer on 23/02/2019 - 21:08

    I'll do a write up when I at my computer next but ivory coat, glucosamine and Chondroitin and omega 3
    I've noticed no change from jd

    • 

      Lady Grey Tea on 23/02/2019 - 21:17

      Thank you - appreciate the info and looking forward to your write up :)

      • 

        teacherer on 23/02/2019 - 23:24

        Alright so JD advertises:
        -Therapeutic levels of omega-3 fatty acids
        -Enriched with glucosamine & chondroitin sulfate
        -Controlled calories & added L-carnitine
        -Clinically proven antioxidants
        Eessentially, lots of omega-3 in the correct ratios of DHA and EPA. Joint supplements, the right amount of calories (?) and L-carnitine (a lean muscle builder).

        I am feeding ivory coat which out of the bag contains a large amount of omega 3 with DHA and EPA in it, Flaxseed oil which contains Alpha-Linolenic Acid, vitamin C and manganese for uptake of joint supplements.
        I'm added chondroitin and glucosamine on the cheap with
        - https://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/84377/nature-39-s-ow…
        And extra omega 3 for the big boy with
        - https://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/84684/wagner-triple-…
        This covers all the extra additives in hills except L-carnitine (lean muscle builder) and vitamin e.

        Make sure you buy extra strength tabs to avoid feeding a millions caps a day.

        My 40kg german shepherd gets 2 gluc/chon tabs a day and 1 omega 3 tablet.
        The 10kg cocker spaniel gets 1 gluc/chon tab a day.

        Buy from chemist warehouse, not iherb

        • 

          Lady Grey Tea on 24/02/2019 - 21:51

          @teacherer: Thank you science-teacher, that is so helpful. I am going to follow suit and see how I go. I am guessing you are have chosen one of the Ivory Coat fish options for the extra omega-3?

          I have been giving my dog Seaflex supplements already, which has extra omega3, but will definitely be getting those chondrotin/glucosamine tablets. My dog is only 7.5kg - do you think 1 tablet a day is too much? If I understand correctly, her safe upper limit is 1560mg, which is just under 1 tablet. I can always start her on 1/2 tablet, as she has only ever had J/D for breakfast (I do a big carefully weighed cookup and freeze home cooked dinner portions).

          Thanks again for sharing your info, it has saved me a lot of time in my own research and given me options I hadn't considered before!

• 

  ShortyX on 11/03/2019 - 16:39

  Late to the party, but have you considered feeding raw food?

• 

  PorkHunt on 30/10/2019 - 10:13

  Is there a TL:DR for what the best biscuit food is for German shepherds?

• 

  stayloyal on 01/10/2020 - 16:04

  Blue Buffalo or Royal Canin - These brand food is good for German shepherds dogs

  • 

    teacherer on 01/10/2020 - 16:11

    Now, what are your basing that off?

• 

  blergmonkeys on 28/01/2021 - 14:33

  Hey @science-teacher

  Where did you settle? What food did you end up going for and what was your regime?