How Do I Get a Job/Unpaid Intern at a Boutique Investment Firm

Lngw3 on 06/01/2019 - 19:44

Hi all,

I have been cold approaching some Boutique Investment Firms for job opportunities. In general, I got replies like 'we'll pass your information to HR' and I've never heard from any of them since then. I couldn't apply to many larger investment firms due to my visa (international student).

A little bit of my background:
I recently graduated from an Accounting and Finance degree and I'm based in Melbourne. I am passionate about equity investment and even wrote a thesis in my degree about capital market inefficiency (mis-pricing) and trading strategies to exploit such inefficiency. I like analysing financial reports but I am definitely not keen to work in Accounting (I have 1+ year work experience in Accounting).

Does anyone know why many larger companies just refuse to hire international students (even with good English)?

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to cold approach Boutique Investment Firms for a job opportunity or even an unpaid internship?

Thanks. :D

Education & Work

Comments

  • StonedWizard on 06/01/2019 - 19:47
    +7

    Buy a Mercedes as they’re a great investment.

    • ngw3 on 06/01/2019 - 19:52

      No sir, it only depreciates. :D

      • Some Human on 07/01/2019 - 09:02
        +1

        Ah, you’re new here.

        • Baysew on 07/01/2019 - 09:05
          +1

          Yep, cross off Westpac.

        • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 16:01

          On the other hand, he handily passes the (admittedly very low) test to be working in IB.

  • Davo1111 on 06/01/2019 - 19:48
    +1

    dont volunteer to work for companies unpaid. It sets a standard that you can be taken advantage of

    • ngw3 on 06/01/2019 - 19:54
      +3

      Well, I see it from a different perspective.
      Unpaid intern = when they don't actually need someone to work but they are happy to show you how it works and help you develop yourself. (Of course I am not going to do it forever)

    • SydStrand on 06/01/2019 - 21:46

      It's a nice sentiment, but unfortunately many industries expect it. If OP doesn't suck it up and everyone else does, then he has fewer networking opportunities, less experience, and fewer lines on the CV, which makes him even less likely get picked later on.

  • zonra on 06/01/2019 - 19:55
    +7

    Does anyone know why many larger companies just refuse to hire international students (even with good English)?

    As an ex-international student myself: the hassles (involved with visa paperworks and the eventual sponsorship that we all ask for) deter most employers (and understandably so), especially in fields where local candidates are readily available.

  • chumlee on 06/01/2019 - 19:56
    +3

    Get to know their drug dealers of choice and use them as a warm intro

  • nahi11 on 06/01/2019 - 19:57

    You don't post on Ozbargain

    • ngw3 on 06/01/2019 - 20:01
      +7

      This is a bargain: free labour available D:

  • [Deactivated] on 06/01/2019 - 20:08

    Very difficult for a company to have someone as unpaid employee. Doesn't matter if you are an aussie or visa holder.

    They even have to pay work experience students to avoid exploitation.

    You may just have to start in a shitty accounting role and work your way to your dream role. You know, like the rest of us.

  • bargainhunter87 on 06/01/2019 - 20:15
    +1

    Go to information evenings - talk to people. Reach out to random people on LinkedIn and ask them for a coffee catch up. If there is someone in the industry that you aspire to be like then ask them to be a career mentor. It isn't easy and often you'll find yourself in awkward situations reaching out to people. But the reality is these days its not what you know, its who you know and how you can present yourself.

  • conservative on 06/01/2019 - 20:43
    +3

    why many larger companies just refuse to hire international students

    Why bother when they can hire a local who have all their documentation in order and don't have to worry about things like visas expiring?

  • swapsey on 06/01/2019 - 20:43
    +1

    Why don’t u network face to face like through meet ups like this one in Melbourne. There are also ones for business and finance people and I bet along the way you will get to share your story lots and even say, “I’m looking to intern at a boutique or startup….”. I have been to these things for a different industry and people offered me all sorts of opportunities over the weeks that they saw my familiar face and we chatted over beer.

    • ngw3 on 07/01/2019 - 00:05

      Good idea. I'll try this out :D

  • Halo375 on 06/01/2019 - 21:04

    They may just simply not have any opportunities available at the moment or they don’t accept cold calling applications.

  • serpserpserp on 06/01/2019 - 21:41
    +1

    OP: Perhaps you could tell us what your education qualification are and work experience to get a better picture here? I'm assuming your thesis is one of those Honours papers and not a PhD?

    Boutique Investment Firms actually have the top talent to choose from usually. Lots of people who start off in banks or as equity analysts, or other corporate entities with treasury facets etc. Often like to try their hand at this kind of stuff after a few years in the game because it pays well. So BIFs really don't take on a lot of grads and if they do they would have good connections or pedigree to be able to find good connections (local private schools, top uni's etc. etc.

    Really they are mostly looking for people who have experience & contacts in either equities, project finance or property, most other BIF's don't dabble in much else in Australia (apart from the odd small cap IT funds).

    Also what is it about your visa that restricts you at large firms? Don't you think those same problems would restrict any employer?

    You are trying to get into a game that is very people orientated, if you didn't spend a lot of your uni time making networks to leverage now to get to where you want to go, you might find where you are trying to go just too big of a leap for a first job. I know people who have 7+ years releveant experience be knocked back from BIF's because the personality type didn't gel or they just didn't have the very specific experience that they wanted that is available in the market.

    Good luck.

    • ngw3 on 07/01/2019 - 00:28

      Thanks for your insight. I couldn't agree with you more. You're right, it was my Honours paper (Honours degree from Melbourne Uni), not phd, though I am looking to apply to do phd in the near future. It is also one of the reasons I want to gain some exposure in this field. Of course, I am genuinely interested in equity investment, not just because it might add points to my phd application.

      I will be on a Temporary Visa with unlimited work rights for 2 years. I guess it is the reason why most employers refuse to hire international students, there is just no guarantee of what happens after 2 years.

      I did not spend time networking at uni as I was too focused on working (had multiple jobs to support myself). I regret it but I guess it's too late now. I also tried the unimelb alumni network but it doesn't seem to be any BIF alumni on the network.

  • SydStrand on 06/01/2019 - 21:41
    +2

    I am passionate about equity investment

    No one's 'passionate' about equity investment.

    • ngw3 on 07/01/2019 - 00:31

      Why not? I thought I was in it for the money, and I realized I actually care beyond that. You get rewarded for good judgment/strategy and you learn a lesson every time you're proved wrong by the market.

  • dbui8743 on 06/01/2019 - 22:27
    +1

    I worked for one, not in front office, but we hated cold calling haha.

    We barely had time to do anything, let alone looking at resumes when it is not needed. And as soon as something came up, the firm tended to have a very detailed description of what they were looking for, so again your sent in resume would not get looked at much.

    It is a tough area to get into, especially at this moment of the market.

    On a side note, isn't market inefficiency the most fundamental topic in finance and almost everyone has to research on it in finance 101? Learn new skills, financial modelling, coding skill even for data analysis, that would be good.

    • ngw3 on 07/01/2019 - 00:40

      Would you guys read a stock pitch from a cold caller though? I am definitely not qualified - fresh grad with no experience.

      Really, all I've got is a good attitude to learn (everyone says that in their application anyway) and some very limited investing experience as an investor myself (who isn't).

      Yes, market inefficiency was the broad topic. It was about applying a new fundamental valuation model (not developed by me) to exploit market inefficiency, specifically, constructing a 'mispricing' proxy to build a profitable zero investment strategy.

      • dbui8743 on 07/01/2019 - 01:10

        I think the poster below has a very good post for you to follow.

        A lot of this also requires some luck as ưell. Like I said, all the guys there are very busy, it is hard to reach them directly. You go through Hr or their assistants who are not as well verse on the topic matter as their bosses, but one of those times you could get someone who would be into this and read your pitch. It is 80% luck and 20% talent (i am making this up as i go) but really it is how it is.

        My friend just started a fund but in new york and not in equity, otherwise I would hook you ip.

  • couldnthaveknown on 06/01/2019 - 23:35
    +9

    Hey mate, I created an account to say hi! I get a lot of good out of this forum, so should give back.

    The short answer to your question is - attach 2 home made equity research reports that you've written yourself, and particularly try and focus on topical stocks, and attach it to your resume. If you don't invest yourself, at least have a paper account and be prepared to talk about why you're in certain stocks, why you're not etc. You can attach your portfolio record but, I'd be more interested in what you learnt from your mistakes than your best picks. In most cases these 2 things will guarantee you an interview. Of the 2, the reports are more important - heaps of people invest but the reasons they hold stocks is usually not things considered in a professional context, or by a professional money manager. The reason this works is because if I am a sell sider, the fact that you could possibly have a different view or different info on one of the companies I cover means, for the price of a coffee, I could get a free idea. For a buy sider, if you have something to say about a stock I'm invested in, I'll take that for free. And clearly it shows dedication.

    I will write a few tid bits of relevant info below, they're not in any order but please consider these things

    • Equity research is a tough industry. Are you sure you want in? The industry is shrinking, because brokerages paid to analysts are under more scrutiny particularly from European money managers. Please google Mifid and have a read. The effect of this is, of course, salaries are not what they used to be, bonus is not great, and each analyst has to do more work, but more than that, it creates an air of desperation amongst equity research teams. And the culture that stems from this is for the most part not enjoyable. I strongly recommend you consider this.

    • Have you started your CFA? The sweet spot seems to be those who have finished level 2, but not yet level 3. If you have finished level 2, you are clearly dedicated. More so than a level 1. But if you finish level 3 and are still just beginning to search for practical experience, I'd wonder why you weren't able to secure employment for that long. Beware though, the CFA is extremely difficult. I did 2 degrees and the CFA was multiples harder. The content is hard to begin with but the way questions get asked leaves very little room for error. When people say 'is it like the CPA' it absolutely isn't. I know from experience. I think one of the reasons the content is difficult is because finance is a very young study - mostly in the last maybe 40 years. Before that it basically didn't exist in the form it does today. As a result, none of the theories are unified like, say, the classical theory in physics, which is only inconsistent at sub atomic levels. To me finance theory is really piece meal, so you kinda gotta learn each, recognise they don't really reconcile with other theories, but still know what applies when. Then there are new areas of finance study, like biases and decision making science, performance measurement… and unlike hard sciences, none of these things are observable in nature. You can observe speed of light, or electrolysis. You cannot observe market risk appetite etc.

    • When you write the reports, don't worry about getting things wrong. No one is expecting you to get things to a professional level. Especially the financial modelling. But try and steer away from general observations like, if you think Woolies has a successful marketing campaign etc or JB Hi Fi's prices are the lowest. Without doing a proper price study (track, say, 200 grocery items at each supermarket weekly for at least 2 years), these comments aren't backed by data. But, you can show innovative ways of doing research - for instance, you can look back on JB Hi Fi catalogues for many years on some website called oz something. Can't remember! and you can say something like 'the frequency of >15% discounts on key product lines such as Apple and Samsung has decreased in frequency this year, compared to the average of the last 3 years. In 2015, 16, and 17, Apple was discounted at 15% for 2 weeks in each year before Xmas. This year, this only occurred for 1 week. This is a valid observation about pricing dynamics and how competitive the market is, and you've used a valid yet innovative information source.

    • One of the common entry level questions (which I personally think is not too sensible) is (sorry its actually a 3 part question haha) - what's more important, the IS, BS, or CFS? What are all the links between the IS, BS, and CFS? And, what are some reasons the 3 financial statements don't reconcile. I was asked these when I started. Couldn't really answer them haha but, to be fair, these aren't particularly important in practice. They are more 'hygiene' factors.

    • Another common question (at all levels) is - pitch me a stock - its an open question and you can pitch whatever you like, but your answer will indicate your understanding of the stock of your choice, and your delivery skill. Both very important.

    So, Mr. Original Poster, I hope that gets you started and gives you an insight about equity research. Keep in mind very few equity analysts start as a grad in research - the skill set is just too broad. On any given day, you might start by modelling a new acquisition including correct accounting treatment of items like… software… customer contracts… stock issuances etc (the financial models are big and complex, mistakes are generally frowned upon obviously, clients will ask you to send your models in full detail and they will work through them), then write a 20 page report on what you think about the acquisition, run off to meet the company's management team over lunch and ask them questions about their acquisition, publish the report to your 1000 or so readers in the arvo, call 20 clients, debate with some of the more chatty ones for an hour about all the reasons you're right or wrong - so you gotta be able to do the financial analysis in excel, write, and sell your idea on the phone or in person. Then, after all that, it's probably 7pm, and you're packing up and BOOM. EMAIL SAYS - NOTICE RECEIVED. That's when another one of the companies you're covering has an announcement to make. Take a deep breath. You're about to do the whole thing all over again (minus the talking to clients at midnight, maybe some NY clients)… at 2am, you finish, get home, and be ready to get back in the office at 730am - there's a room full of sales people waiting for you to represent your reports, ask you questions, and tell you all the reasons you're right or wrong.

    Key book recommendations - Peter Lynch's stuff, Anthony Bolton, and you should probably throw in one by warren buffet but… he's not brought up as often in my experience, just a bit cliched. Peter Lynch's stuff is a bit old - he wrote his books in the 80's. Things have changed a lot since then, excel etc, but still a good read.

    Ok now OP, I have a favour to ask - when you make it, and I hope you do, one day you might come across the opportunity to pass on some info to a new gun. Please do so when you get the opportunity.

    Good luck!

    • [Deactivated] on 07/01/2019 - 02:36
      +2

      I have no idea what you are talking about but awesome response for the op.

    • mskeggs on 07/01/2019 - 07:02

      This is great advice.
      Can I add, listen to some earnings calls for the companies you are interested in.
      The Q & A at the end will have a variety of analysts asking questions. An carefully, individually tailored email to them saying, (for example) “Hey, really interested why you are focused on the accounting treatment of the NZ divestment, when my calcs show it would be better to return the capital as a distribution, rather than a special dividend. Is there an international taxation consideration I’m missing, or is the company leaving money on the table for the Australian shareholders?”

      I’m clearly not an equity analyst, but that kind of detailed inquiry is like catnip to an analyst, and I would be surprised if you sent more than one or two messages like that without a response. A follow up, “do you have 15mins where I could buy you a coffee?” would be fine.

      When you have the chance to chat with an analyst, let them know you are looking for work and ask if they know anyone who might be a good fit for your skills. When you are leaving, ask if they can think of anyone else you could talk to who might be helpful. People like to help others.

    • serpserpserp on 07/01/2019 - 12:35

      Love the IS/BS/CFS question. Equity analysts it has to be IS but for everyone else dealing with the company it is CFS ;)

  • trustnoone on 07/01/2019 - 01:36

    I got my internship by cold calling, basically what you did, sent in a resume, heard nothing for ages, 2.5 months later I had an interview and started work the next week, you just never know with that stuff. Usually they'll grab you if they really need someone

    Another idea is just by messaging them on linkedin, don't ask for a job, tell them you want to grab a coffee, say you are really interested in learning from them, what they do, what they like about their job. You're looking at someone who would be passionate about their job because people like talking about themselves and what they do. Be interested in what they say and just leave it like that, I think asking them would be a bit pushy, but you can just say that you'd love to learn more even if its free.

    Keep in mind though that unpaid internships are illegal as far as I know? its only legal if its part of a degree or other area, so sometimes they're hard to find especially for larger companies that get interns by the book and have a premade in that you have to follow (like steps).

  • [Deactivated] on 07/01/2019 - 09:30

    Oversupply of finance grads means you will have a hard time finding a role.

    You really need to stand out from the rest of the pack

  • DyByDx on 30/12/2019 - 14:18

    hi ngw3,
    did you have any luck in past year?
    i have just come across your post.

    • ngw3 on 19/01/2020 - 10:20

      Hi blackbulb,

      I was in a business operation full time role most of last year, and just recently moved to an Accounting/Finance role (commercial accounting). I am currently still interviewing with a couple of companies, both consulting firms, one research role and one finance role.

      I am starting to doubt if I am a suitable candidate for the industry. My applications usually progress to the next stage in consulting but not investment. I usually fail at the interview stage though, I am working on it.

      Just want to share what I've learned this year looking for jobs if anyone else here is struggling:
      I initially had trouble to even get interviews. After some failures, I knew it was because I was too average and there was nothing that made me stand out as a candidate. I then really thought about what I wanted to stand out for.

      I had to be creative with my CV and my experience, it was risky but there was nothing to lose as I wasn't getting any call back anyway. I set aside a couple thousands dollars and started a small business, I summarised my CV to one page and included my business timeline and plan in the second page. I believed it was what got me interviews.

      It could be anything, such as making videos, writing books, starting a podcast. It doesn't have to be successful. I think they liked that the CV was different and that I was doing something "interesting". A small investment of a couple thousands for potential of getting interviews, I think it is worth it.

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