Anyone been with Armchair Development for investments? They are promising 20%+ return on investment.
In theory it works and legit on paper. PDS checks out but can't read any reviews.
I was wondering if anyone had dealings with them? Positive negative etc
Thank you
<Mod: link to PDS removed>
So far they've paid every month
New money coming in goes to the first victims.
We have a personal guarantee from the directors as security for the loan. They have nice houses.
Surely this a troll.
You want to hear from early investors. Problem is the early ones get paid. It's the late investors you lose the lot.
True
However the guy will lose his life if it was a Ponzi and he is well known , accredited, licenced, solid past results in another business. Like I understand anything is possible but he would have more to lose
He has nothing / little to lose …… it’s a subsidiary company. Companies go broke all the time, it’s hardly going to affect him. Why is there little information available online about him?
there's a bit on him
here's the PDS page 61 if you are interested https://wefindhouses.com.au/uploads/documents/East-Estate-Of…
Ask yourself is 30% realistic when there is a property downturn?
Go and listen to a podcast called ‘Who the hell is Hamish’, a fool and their money are easily parted (it is a great story about an Aussie scammer).
A reliable parent company means nothing except separation of legal and financial responsibility, so ask yourself again why set up a separate entity?
The answer ….. Because it is extremely high risk and it’s ‘your’ money they are using, when it goes it will be due to market conditions and they would have paid themselves well from your investment.
Or as you seem to be headed….. invest and come back and share your experience in 12-24 months.
what you are saying are valid too
i think even if I go ahead and report back and it went well.. nobody would care anyway
i think even if I go ahead and report back and it went well.. nobody would care anyway
pretty much.
I could "invest" $50000 in to a soccer match tonight and have a good chance of a 30% return tomorrow.
I doubt anyone would say I made a wise investment… They would probably say I have a gambling problem.
This is exactly the same thing. High risk / high reward. This investment is only good if you believe it has a positive EV and your bank balance is high enough to risk losing 100% of your investment. If you don't have at least 1,000,000 in the bank then investing into something so high risk is just gambling.
If you actually think this is low risk then your degree was a waste of time. Either that or you know the guy behind it all and your trying to trick people in to investing.
Pretty bad example but appreciate the feedback
I don't recommend anyone to invest in anything here
It's such a great deal they're inviting the whole world to get in on it?!
valid question but financing for investments is a complex one
How is it complex?
no disrespect too long to explain but is on the PDS
@Poor Ass: Have you heard of this great new Investment scheme, called a Pyramid?! I heard there's also another one goi g around involving some type of chain letter🤭
@altomic: here you go https://wefindhouses.com.au/uploads/documents/East-Estate-Of…
note the fees are payable by the developer not the investment company
April Fool posts just get better every year!
Product Placement?
no
just trying to see if anyone has done it
Sounds like OP is trying to advertise this ponzi scheme
Indeed. OP appears to be a fraud drumming up interest in a scam.
Mods, please ban OP. It would be terrible if OZB became a place where scammers can get interest in their schemes by 'posing legitimate questions about this offer' while spruiking it in the comments.
I can tell you pretty confidently that this wouldnt end well for you. My dad's friends are the big property developers that deal with very large scale developments, they will never take it to public as they don't need to. Banks are the one thats champing up to them offering them low-interest loans. If a project needs money from a random bunch of strangers, thats already a big warning sign as a viable project dont need to look or even advertise, (trusted) people will already go to them from word of mouth. Maybe this will be for very small scale development, but if they can't even fund that…
your reason is valid
I should let Triguboff know - he is as big as they get ($9Bn) and got refused by the Banks, which according to you does not happen.
Of course he just sold assets and self funded.
Banks of course run back and offered him loans.
There are many companies that raise $ from the public (which you say the don't), its just not private placement (or similar) but rather stock offering. Why do that? Because the Banks want to see 'hurt' money even if its not utilised (i.e. in the Stk Mkt).
I will do $50K @ 10% for you if you have something to secure the loan, i.e. your house so that you can lend this guy @ 20%.
ta
Hell I'll do 9%!
Don't start a bidding war… 25k each @ 10% :P
It looks good to me, but if your not sure, i have a formula which gives you the winning lotto numbers for next Saturdays draw, iam only offering it to a group of select people for a small fee because i dont like having all the winnings for my self. let me know if your keen?
Shut up and take my money.
Armchair Development
There's money in the pinapple stand!
Mmmm tastes like pins in that apple.
Are you actually trying to market this to OzBargainers? You're not associated?
OP has made their position clear.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/447878#comment-7117972
It's strange how they keep defending the scheme while receiving nothing from it.
also strange how most people said ponzi without much analysis
What we need is a poll.
@whooah1979: won't work.. it'll be like the elderly calling Brexit because they have the numbers
i was only really after people who invested with them to comment
Does it come with a share in a Emu Egg farm?
didn't ask
I am pretty sure it sounds like you are getting commission on this. It makes no sense that as a financial advisor you are defending this so relentlessly, and its common knowledge that kickbacks happen a lot with these types of development.
Why ask the question in the first place, if you already have the answer?
If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. For anyone who might be slightly interested in this I would advise you to stay away!!! No need to donate your money to this.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/warning-on-risky…
This is from a quick google search, these guys made The Age!
that article is something else unrelated to topic
no i don't have anything to gain… and i'm not providing any advice. I don't provide advice that receive kick backs.
I don't have the answer that is why i'm asking people who have invested in it, not from plebs
but yes I'm having doubts too and trying to understand that if it was a scam… then he would have much more to lose but why… everyone can find him easily.
PDS and background checks out
@charuzu What's the point of asking others if they have participated in this scheme? You can't validate any of their responses and it would be simple for someone working for the company to falsify testimonials. If you're going to be making an informed choice based on an Internet forum, you're setting yourself up for failure.
valid point
Valid reply
If you're going to be making an informed choice based on an Internet forum, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Hmmm… perhaps - investment funds (and family offices) can pay people to investigate the background of others (due diligence), however this is less well known to a small investor.
Good idea is to run their name through insolvency/bankruptcy search, of course the old saying that a good builder has already gone bankrupt twice can be true (just like like famous investors likes people who lost in the stock market previously, then they value $ much more, and spend more effort trying not to lose it (I think Dalio might of said something like that but cannot be sure)).
I really hope this is money that you are able to completely lose. It seems like you have made your mind up and I wish you the best but I expect the worst.
ta
Great deal op go for it. Let us know how you went. Don't be like that Westpac car guy, he never came to let us know about the actual yield on his investment.
thank for the encouragement
even if it is a scam it is so professionally written https://wefindhouses.com.au/uploads/documents/East-Estate-Of…
I mean lawyers, accountants, ASIC reporting, licencing.. bit of a over kill to be a scam right
haha westpac car guy is what he will be known as now
Sadly none of those things will prevent people from scamming. I was being sarcastic in my earlier response.
Great
A quick google search shows that this mob is pretty shady.
The Federal Court has imposed record penalties totalling $18 million against We Buy Houses Pty Ltd (We Buy Houses) and its sole director, Rick Otton, for making false or misleading representations about how people could create wealth through buying and selling real estate, following ACCC action. (https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/property-spruiker-rick…)
Its all very well having a fancy PDS but you really need to take a common sense approach to these.
Firstly, why would they give Joe Blow 20% return on investment when they could simply go to the banks for much cheaper loans (debt). If its too risky for the banks then maybe that's a red flag.
Then you got to realise a 20% return must mean there is significant risk involved. Nothing wrong with a risky investment but you gotta diversify your investment. Offset the risk with low risk investments too.
Also look at how many trading names that have just recently been registered
It's not the same company. This is we find houses not we buy houses
I'm fully aware about we buy houses
Come on guys
To me that’s a red flag. I would be making sure there is no connection. If it was me I would be so running a company search.
Ta
I believe in ferries and virgins
ferries yay
Sound as legit as the Albanian pyramid scheme
Actually it is a Dubai pyramid scheme.
With Charuzu keep asking people to read the PDS… I'm wondering he Charuzu had actually read it.
This is why you guys have failed so miserably. You have to get in on the ground floor with the trapazoid scheme.
Point one yes I read it and if you did your would know the investor doesn't pay the fees and the development company actually pays it
Point two Australia takes quite a bit of money from overseas investors in most real estate
Scams everywhere agreed. Can't be too careful ay
Even without the refundable 5% the management fees are VERY high on this. I actually don't think it is a scam, it looks more of a way for them to pass on the high risks of a project to you AND charge you for the privilege, thus locking in a profit for themselves whether the projects succeed or fail.
What the Albanian pyramid scheme didn’t happen, must have made it up
Rather than investing in some dudes creating a sus website called we-find-houses, you better off investing in a head monk of big buddist temple. The head monk of Linh Son temple in Reservoir paid non-bank investors 8 mil debt in a single payment; 100 cents on a dollar. So when it comes to your hard earned money, trust the monks, not the millionaires.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/buddhist-monk-wh…
Ok
This guy is obivously just advertising this bullshit fraud.
Thanks
Exactly. OP needs to be banned.
I too was courted by another group with a glossy promise of similar returns. I declined politely.
It is difficult for the average investor to correctly assess and price the risk. There is risk and likelihood that you will lose some or all of your capital investment. What is that risk and how do you price it? The risk is likely understated. If the risk of loss was zero, or close to it, the banks themselves would be doing the lending to capture these great investment returns. No, the risk of loss is very high. The banks know this. The institutional investors know this. It is the average investor that does not understand this and might not price it correctly. It is easy to be blinded by the promise of 20%+ returns and ignore the very real possibility of -100% return. Caveat emptor.
Totally agree
Have to do own due diligence but this instance you can't really
well you can to some degree, these are in specific markets. you can do your research on the market there, average prices, time on market, talk to real estate agents to get a feel for actual demand and compare that against what they are proposing. then look at the developers themselves and their track record etc. if you can't price the risk premium then you are gambling not investing, if you have the money to afford to do that then fine it could be worth a shot.
Ya won't get a clear picture in this case compare to other traditional investments available
@Poor Ass: If you can't get a clear picture than you should be putting that as a high risk in your evaluation criteria and pricing it accordingly. Have you actually researched the market at all? quick google appears to show the market there flat or declining slightly with lower market interest and a high percentage of elderly (take that with a grain of salt from 30 seconds with a search engine).
@gromit: ya I have… but again opportunity for first home people to buy cheaper
yes I understand the risks… certainly not a scam but high risk one
@Poor Ass: and when you did the research what did they tell you about demand for first home buyers in the area? is it increasing or declining? how much pent up demand is there? I would have expected that to be a lot lower in a community that is heavily focused towards seniors but no idea of market there. What did local real estate agents tell you?
30% return? nice scam
Not a scam just a very risky investment that could lose all your money compare to traditional investments. There's a difference.
If OP has money to lose, then he has money to lose. Go for it!
ta
Looks like a very similar structure and PDS to Westpoint run by Norm Carey that collapsed during the property boom.
thanks I'll have a read
It's only taken me 10 minutes on Google to see the following:
Run, not walk, from this.
My friend you get a gold star!
Mate if you are going to try and scam a bunch of people onto your pyramid scheme you are better off calling some nursing homes up and speaking to the people there. No one is falling for your tripe on an open forum like this.
Tripe actually doesn't taste bad
I think you've commented the best so far… Lots of plebs here
Perhaps it's the use of if and s.