Why Aren't Fines Based on % Networth Instead of a Set Amount Based on Infringement?

Ghosteye on 13/06/2019 - 16:53

I was listening to a podcast the other day about how fines affect the common man, and are geared towards leeching money out of us normies. The rich don't really give a rat's a** about paying fines because it would probably be a drop in the bucket for them.

They then went on to suggest that maybe a %net worth fine would be more effective in a society such as ours, where income declaration and other aspects are pretty transparent and advanced.

What are some of your thoughts? Do you think our fine system in Australia is fair today? Do you think it can be improved?

Automotive

Comments

  • ozbjunkie on 15/06/2019 - 10:52

    By tax bracket, maybe, but by raw percentage, no way.

  • netsurfer on 15/06/2019 - 11:16

    This is very short sighted attempt to try to come up with a "fair" system.

    The really rich people don't drive. Their chauffeurs drive. Even if they do drive occasionally, their "taxable" income, thanks to their accountants are way lower than yours or mine. Some of them might just pay $1 for tax a year.

    At my first job, in one of the meetings, someone mentioned to the CEO the share option system is so unfair, the CEO's response: (that's staff's name), life is unfair.

    As for fines, I once whinged to a friend about the cost of a traffic infringement fine. His response: don't speed or run the red light (he doesn't and never got an infringement fine). And, this, if you are poor, you can infringe with less penalty is not actually right or fair.

  • [Deactivated] on 15/06/2019 - 14:05

    I guess the biggest question is what are your goals in using a % base system, and then does that actually work to accomplish those goals?

    If you're trying to establish it for equity reasons, then I think that's a poor plan. Fines should be about road safety and not seen as revenue raisers, so cranking up the fines on the rich just to raise more money from them than the poor seems silly to me.

    If you're trying to reduce road fatalities, well some countries do use this system so has it reduced fatalities in those countries? We have about the same road fatality rate per billion km as Finland, but more than Norway or Sweden (who are on par with the UK). Not sure if there was a significant change in their fatality rates when they enacted those penalties. If there was no improvement then I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish other than stick it to the rich folk.

    Do the rich actually commit more speeding violations than the poor? It may be true but I wouldn't assume it to be so.

    I think we are already rather strict on road rules and penalties compared to the rest of the world. Unless you can demonstrate how being even more aggressive with the fines will be of significant benefit to anything but the police budget, then I don't think we need to be more strict. I also think the cost of administration for a system like you propose would be rather enormous compared to a simple set ticket. Net worth would be extremely hard to use, so I think you would have to go by taxable income in the last financial year. So what happens when the richest get their clever accountants to offshore and deduct everything to get their income close to 0? They pay no fines? You're just creating greater incentives to avoid tax if fines are tied to taxable income. Ok so tie it to overall income, rather than taxable. Then farmers and people who have high cost but low margin businesses will get absolutely screwed by your fines. So how do you do it?

  • No ONE on 15/06/2019 - 14:33

    Harsher Demerit point for sensible offence would be a start. Penalising for going just 5 kms above posted limit is stupid. Driver would be paying more intension on road rather than looking at their speedo meter if Going over 5 kms is given leniency.

  • porsche26c on 15/06/2019 - 14:40

    is that you bill shorten asking?

    seriously if any idiot with lots of money keeps parking in a non-stopping zone to get a fine then thats good for the local council. it should be equal for all people, you dont get a less penalty to go to gaol if your poor and more if your rich.

    I hate this income/society class war, some people are rich through hard work and success (obviously some just off their parents). but at the end of the day we all contribute to society in some form of tax.

  • netsurfer on 15/06/2019 - 14:50

    The rich don't really give a rat's a** about paying fines because it would probably be a drop in the bucket for them.

    That's BS. No one is happy about paying fine, rich or poor. I know rich people whinging about fines. Rich people like to spend money on themselves and their family members, but not giving money to government or police.

    Instead of whinging about the fine system being the same for everyone (you broke the law so you pay), just do what my colleague told me: follow the rules - why speed or run the red light or park at the wrong place and then worry about getting a fine? We don't get extra money in our pockets when rich people being fined more.

    Even if we poor people paid less, we still need to pay and still lose demerit points. Better off following the rules, rather than breaking them and ask for compensation due to being poor.

  • [Deactivated] on 15/06/2019 - 16:17

    I think anybody who gets a fine needs to be forced to put a big billboard on top of their car with I HAVE A TINY PENIS written on it. It would work equally well on the rich and the poor.

  • iTaco on 15/06/2019 - 16:19

    Don't get fined, simple.

  • peterpeterpumpkin on 15/06/2019 - 17:43
    +1

    That's why they should do away with fines and introduce community service for everyone. Time is the most valuable resource.

    Let all the wrongdoers pick weeds together. If it worked in the gulags it would work in Australia.

  • justwii on 15/06/2019 - 18:52

    The ideology is right and that is what demerit point is for: a level ground for all, despite all other factors.

    Forget about fining, leave it all to the demerit point system. The richer pays more should already be absorbed in the tax system, no need to re-implement the whole thing again on offences. What actually needs to be done is completely remove the fines, deduct demerit points on ALL kind of offences, no matter how small the offence is, just raise the banning cap accordingly catering for the inclusion of those non-deducting offences (e.g. illegal parking).

  • zqipz on 15/06/2019 - 20:46

    Easy. Consider a 60yo and 20yo earning $80k pa for their working life. The 60yo has had 40 yrs to save based on the same avg wage. Obviously net worth will be vastly different, 60yo might have saved 10k per year and have $400k saved and the 20yo has $0. Same wage vastly different net worth.

  • centrelink on 15/06/2019 - 20:50
    +1

    I also think we should just kill off all gangs and idiot kids who do dumb stuff, but everything thinks it’s a stupid idea

  • cosmos on 15/06/2019 - 21:45

    Because, if a violation would have resulted in accident, the injury would not be a percentage of the violator’s net worth.

  • j0hnd0e on 16/06/2019 - 08:52

    Fines based on % of the car value would work much better.

  • D A Y on 16/06/2019 - 10:53

    Maybe start introducing social credit system (like China) ?
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-23/china-bars-millions-f…

  • pao2x on 16/06/2019 - 11:14

    Then the penniless will ignore fines

  • CalmLemons on 16/06/2019 - 11:27

    The question that should be asked, when you see people pulled over on the side of the road, is it a bomb or a mercedes?

    The rich are often smart enough to not waste their money by not getting fines in the first place. Statistically, most fines are incurred by the less affluent.

    Not getting a fine is very simple, listen to, and don't break the rules.

    Why are you complaining against something that can be so easily avoided?

    • TheMindsetTraveller on 16/06/2019 - 18:30

      hahaha assuming your statistics are real (which I place doubt on) then rich people will support fines based on income?

  • syousef on 16/06/2019 - 11:34

    Because tall poppy syndrome isn't endemic yet. A parking fine is not worth $100M.

  • dtbnguyen on 16/06/2019 - 20:02
    +1

    A few countries in the world actually fine people based on income. Note that people in Switzerland, UK and Finland they're pretty well off from a per capita basis.
    https://www.wired.com/2010/01/record-speeding-fine-dents-swi…
    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-t…
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/545065/uk-introduces-income-bas…
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)per_capita
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP    (PPP)_per_capita
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_GDP_per_…

    It's been considered locally as well (do some research). The primary problem is getting the momentum to push such policy through. I can't see it really being popular especially if you consider the amount of money they bring in from it and it's current perception. A lot of people would see it as a money revenue issue rather then a road safety or fairness issue.
    https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/australians-paid-1billion-i…
    https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5832043/labor-coul…
    https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/parliame…

  • Ryanek on 17/06/2019 - 14:46
    +1

    We should adopt the Swedish solution. A portion of the fine goes to a national lottery where only drivers who haven't committed an offence get a change to win.

  • [Deactivated] on 26/06/2019 - 19:37

    As someone who hasn't had a fine in the last 10 years and who drives a nice car : no, thanks! I don't want to become a target for those revenue-raising highway cops.

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