Red Light Fine (Advice Only)

sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 01:12
Last edited 24/04/2020 - 15:31

I have recently declined a review of a fine which was handed to me for "Proceeding through a red light"

I am asking for advice on whether or not that I should or have a chance to go to court. It bothers me because if it's my first unintentional fines that I got. If I intentionally cause a traffic offense I would just pay for it.

I have also asked for additional photo/video evidence as I only received two images, both of which I have my entire vehicle across the stop line and also my brake lights were on.

First of all, I like to say that I was in no rush that day and was simply driving normally behind a council sweeper through two sets of lights one of which had a redlight camera. The camera went off when I resumed driving after stopping to wait for the council sweeper to clear the large busy intersection at 10km/h in a 50km/h zone. I had the front of my vehicle blocking adjacent traffic so I proceeded when it became possible. When I was on the other side, I realized that there were no vehicles in front of both vehicles and they were just crossing the intersection very slowly. The other vehicle is a cement truck.

The review was declined on the reason of " Leniency is not appropriate for this offense as it is considered serious due to the safety risk to pedestrians and other road users"

https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/129276/78976/600-8-173…
https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/129276/78977/600-8-173…

I paid the fine, wheel was one foot before stop line.

Automotive

closed Comments

        • pegaxs on 23/04/2020 - 22:51

          Maths checks out, as does the second photos, where you can see the car hard on the brakes to avoid smashing up the arse of the totally stationary sweeper…

          • No ONE on 24/04/2020 - 14:52

            @pegaxs: Time difference is 0.700 seconds, distance traveled is about 2meters, so speed is around ~10.30 KM/H.

  • CocaKoala on 23/04/2020 - 19:07

    Hi Op,

    I don't need to tell you that it's a bad idea to block an intersection as you've been told that by many here.

    But coming to the point, from the pictures provided, I'm not sure how it's proven that you ran a red light, but that's what you've been fined for.

    I suggest that you contact legal aid in your state. They will give you meaningful advise that's relevant to your situation without judgement.

    Take care.

    • sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 19:14

      I'm hearing back from my lawyers tomorrow.
      Thanks for the calm advice.

      • CocaKoala on 23/04/2020 - 19:44

        Good on you for already having engaged professionals. There was no accident, loss of property or injury to anyone. So that's pretty good when you think about it. Whatever comes out of it, just take it as a lesson and drive more cautiously in the future.

        It's just a fine even in the worst case scenario. Don't let it take away your peace of mind, just relax and take things as they come.

    • Eeples on 23/04/2020 - 23:38

      Surely if you are in the middle of an intersection and the light is red…. you are running the red at that moment ?

    • CVonC on 24/04/2020 - 01:43

      I'm not sure how it's proven that you ran a red light, but that's what you've been fined for.

      The google maps pic of the intersection clearly shows the merc was on the induction loops where the pedestrians cross.

  • Sawtell on 23/04/2020 - 20:11

    One upside is with the COVID delays in NSW local Courts you may never get a hearing date….

    • sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 20:12

      I don't think I was even given a chance for my case to be reviewed. The review email came at 12am.

  • Black Brown Blue on 23/04/2020 - 20:43

    This is driver's fault. Should not have entered intersection when it was red. Pay the fine. No way you can get out of this. Learn from this. If the intersection at signal is full then wait at the line behind signal incase it turns red.

  • smpantsonfire on 23/04/2020 - 20:46
    +4

    I don't have much to add, however that street sweeper is doing a terrible job. There is crap everywhere.

  • TEER3X on 23/04/2020 - 20:48
    +1

    Did you get your license from eBay?

    • perkinss82 on 23/04/2020 - 20:56
      +1

      Using code 'POTENT15'

      • 91rs on 24/04/2020 - 12:23
        +1

        After reading the comments here, I think OP used the code "PEN15" to get his license via ebay.

    • spackbace on 23/04/2020 - 21:04

      I hear they're free with every ebay plus membership

  • perkinss82 on 23/04/2020 - 20:59
    +4

    OP asks Ozbargain for advice. People give him advice. He just argues back constantly cause it's not the advice he wants to hear.

    Get your high yield investment Merc outta here.

    You entered the intersection even though there was a blockage ahead. Your fault. End thread.

    • spackbace on 23/04/2020 - 21:03
      +2

      End thread.

      Commentator: "Sadly, it wasn't going to be the end of the thread"

      • perkinss82 on 23/04/2020 - 22:55
        +1

        Premature Ozbargaining

  • waletmoro on 23/04/2020 - 21:20
    +2

    If you stay behind the last line, you won't get a ticket because that last line is what triggered the camera. I hope it helps.

    • grasstown on 23/04/2020 - 21:41

      Is it when the front of the car passes over the line closest to the intersection?

      • macdaddyjordan on 24/04/2020 - 10:10
        +1

        it doesnt matter front or rear axle, if one of them passes the line it triggers the camera

        • grasstown on 24/04/2020 - 10:20

          I never knew this and once copied a ticket. So basically, you didn't make the red if the front of your car passed the line, you only make the red if the rear of your car passed. Is that right? I don't think that is clear in the rules.

          • macdaddyjordan on 24/04/2020 - 10:26
            +1

            @grasstown: both axles have to be clear of the line, because thats what trips the sensors below. either a front axle or rear axle will trigger the camera

            • grasstown on 24/04/2020 - 11:11
              +1

              @macdaddyjordan: It was a painful $480 lesson. I felt that the intersection design was also revenue raising, I can't explain it but some intersections, when you are waiting for oncoming traffic to pass, you instinctively sit back at the intersection and other intersections you instinctively enter the intersection to wait. Your actions are the same in each, but on you are sitting back further. I think I've just worked it out, where the intersection is really small, your back axle is still behind while you wait to turn after an oncoming car,but you are all already blocking the intersection and proceed through.

            • Euphemistic on 24/04/2020 - 11:44

              @macdaddyjordan: The sensor is an induction loop. It doesn’t sense the axles, but the metal in the car.

              I’d be interested to see how many of the automated pictures are ignored by those that review them because the offence is marginal.

              • macdaddyjordan on 24/04/2020 - 12:52

                @Euphemistic: it maybe the case in another state? sorry i'm from victoria

                in victoria 2 officers review the photos before a fine is issued, they look for either the rear axle or front axle that triggered the offence

          • TEER3X on 24/04/2020 - 11:59

            @grasstown: If camera goes flash, you pay ticket, boom, boom.

            • grasstown on 24/04/2020 - 12:03

              @TEER3X: Yep I havnt used that intersection since. I use the next street.

  • tadinhah on 23/04/2020 - 21:35

    A little unrelated but the photos from the red light camera are high quality stuff.

    • smartazz104 on 23/04/2020 - 21:46
      +1

      Well when there’s a buck to be made the government will make sure the system works perfectly.

    • sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 22:21

      The government makes sure traffic camera maintenance has an unlimited budget.

  • superuser on 23/04/2020 - 22:03
    +2

    Have you ever been to court before?
    If not, this is a good opportunity,
    and prepare to pay court fee and fines + waste of your time.

    • sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 22:22

      Well yes 3 ongoing. None for traffic court though, won't go to court if I can't win.

      • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2020 - 00:42
        +3

        Well yes 3 ongoing. None for traffic court though,

        What the…?😲

      • CVonC on 24/04/2020 - 01:46
        +5

        Well yes 3 ongoing.

        Can you please create 3 more threads for each of these?

        • Yummy on 24/04/2020 - 09:58

          OP drive a Merc. Surely OP can afford any court battles.

  • bmerigan on 23/04/2020 - 23:02

    I would have argued that one.
    Doing maybe 15 km/h, and the intersection is clearly blocked.

    • spackbace on 23/04/2020 - 23:29
      +1

      So don't enter it…?

      • bmerigan on 24/04/2020 - 08:40

        Sure. Not really the same as 'running a red light' though is it. Red light fines are high because it's dangerous - which this case wasn't.

        • spackbace on 24/04/2020 - 09:23
          +3

          And the only way of knowing that the photos don't show OP running a red is their story of events.

          Remove the story and those pics are of someone running a red light.

        • Euphemistic on 24/04/2020 - 09:36

          Between the photos the op is doing around 25km/h average. In the second photo he front of the car appears to be dipping more than in the first indicating they are braking. They were probably travelling 30-40 in the first photo.

          • bmerigan on 24/04/2020 - 10:11

            @Euphemistic: Looks to me like he travelled 3m in 0.7sec. That's 15km/h

            • sween64 on 24/04/2020 - 11:13

              @bmerigan: Where did you get 3m from? It's more than a car length and OPs car is 4m long.

              • Euphemistic on 24/04/2020 - 11:42
                +1

                @sween64: OPs car is closer to 5m long and if you zoom in to the pics you can see the front wheels are near the faint ped cross line then in the second the rear of the car is past that line.

              • bmerigan on 24/04/2020 - 12:08
                -1

                @sween64: I see 3/4 of a car length

                • sween64 on 24/04/2020 - 12:44
                  +1

                  @bmerigan: Front wheels are sitting on the far side of the pedestrian crossing (faded line) in the 1st photo. In the second photo the car has clearly passed that line. The wheel base is 3m, the car length is 5m. It's at least 5m traveled.

        • macdaddyjordan on 24/04/2020 - 10:12

          you're right its not the same as red light, OP should be issued a second fine as well

          • bmerigan on 24/04/2020 - 10:43

            @macdaddyjordan: A different fine, sure.
            I'm all for dangerous driving being fined. This was not. I hate bogan hoons.

            • pegaxs on 24/04/2020 - 11:43

              @bmerigan: OP drove through a red light. There was a bicycle rider on the other side of the road who could easily have pulled from the curb if they were not paying attention to OPs car and watching just their crossing light.

              It was 100% dangerous driving.

  • Eeples on 23/04/2020 - 23:35
    +2

    You should have waited behind the green light until the sweeper almost made it to the other side.

    If the light turns orange then red just stay where you are.

    If the sweeper is almost over and the light is still green then you go.

    It is about not queuing across the intersection.

    I think if you are half way through an intersection and the light is red (like in the pics) that counts legally as going through a red. Perhaps you could go to court and find out for sure.

    • sunnyc on 23/04/2020 - 23:39

      Yeah I should've stayed put rather than go. I'll wait until next week before I make a decision. Don't want to go to court unless I'm sure to win.

  • Yummy on 24/04/2020 - 00:49
    +2

    https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/is-it-illegal-to-dri…

    We haven’t found any stipulations from insurance companies excluding cover, however if an investigation finds your driving using both feet is a leading contributory cause of the crash then you could be fined by police for negligent or dangerous driving. For insurance purposes it is always best to double-check the exclusions listed in your Product Disclosure Statement (PDS).

    NOICE!!

    • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 02:21
      -1

      This was from the article above that he forgot to mention. Right below his paragraph.
      This article is not intended as legal advice. You should check with your local road authority to verify the information written here is suitable to your situation before driving in this manner.

      Something for your keyboard warrior ego. You must feel good about yourself online.

      I suggest you try driving a manual with only your right foot. Or go drive a vehicle with an elevated accelerator pedal.
      Nobody is a perfect driver and definitely not ones with high egos and critical of others. I've ridden in many supposedly "better driver than me" cause almost head-on collisions.

      https://www.vox.com/2015/7/1/8877583/two-foot-driving-pedal-…

      • Euphemistic on 24/04/2020 - 08:05

        They are both pretty crappy articles. No one is going to try driving a manual with left foot braking, left foot is for clutch.

        Using two feet on an automatic might be justifiable for an automatic only driver, but there are still quite a few manuals out there and it will be hard to unlearn right foot braking.

        I haven’t experienced a car with any form of override on the accelerator either, not saying they aren’t there, but not common. Plenty of times, particularly in a diesel turbo auto, I’ve held the brake and pressed the accelerator to build power and overcome turbo lag before launching into a difficult intersection. Best way to get across quickly.

        Also, for those that hover the left foot over the brake and manage to activate the brake lights while accelerating, you are increasing the risk of a rear ender as the driver behind will not know when you are actually braking if the brake lights are on all the time.

        • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 11:29

          Yeah, nothing wrong with any of this. Everyone drives their own way. I usually brake with my right foot

  • ProlapsedHeinous on 24/04/2020 - 00:58
    +1

    You rolled through the amber, thinking you would make it, but you didn't. You covered way too much ground in the time between 0.6s and 1.3s for me to believe that you actually were at a complete stop, and then moved forward. This combined with you having your brake lights on in both pictures, leads me to think you tried to beat the red, but failed miserably. Pay the fine and learn your lesson.

  • MagicOZ on 24/04/2020 - 02:31

    "Time since Red - 1.3 sec". Did it turn red exactly when you pass? Maybe you rushed the yellow light and didn't make it on time. Sometimes when people are in a row with many cars they tend to mirror the others who may break the rules.

  • screensaver on 24/04/2020 - 05:44
    -1

    If you plead not guilty they will have to send someone and you will pay more. You are better to plead guilty and ask for a dismissal under section 10 because you have an explanation. Thats your only chance. I won all mine. Exxept when someone stole my number plate and I was going thru a broken heart at the time and couldnt get it together to make it to the RTA to get a new one. Then a smart ass cop fined me and to make sure he got me he said I changed lanes without indicating. So I had to pay it.

  • Lord Fart Bucket on 24/04/2020 - 06:59

    Fight it. You'll lose and might get an increased penalty for blocking an intersection.
    Note that the original fine will stand and you'll get court cost on top.

  • rave75 on 24/04/2020 - 07:20
    +2

    On the 1st photo, it was already red when you went across the line, if only afterwards you stayed or went backwards and not proceed, then you might have a chance.

    I had a red light camera captured me (it was a slow moving traffic), I realised the camera and went back afterwards so on the 2nd photo, my car was behind the 1st photo, went to court and successfully got it waived.

    So in your case, just pay up, no chance even if you go to court.

  • snirodha on 24/04/2020 - 07:32

    Actually it dosent matter what OB think of your fine. If you want to challenge go to the court and challenge. At the end of the day it's judges decision. Stop wasting time here. It will help yourself and our pop corn as well. We will save pop corn for another thread.

  • Trioboy on 24/04/2020 - 08:51

    My understanding is that the redlight sensor only triggers if the rear (or front wheel) role over the white line after the light turns red. It's not quite clear in the first picture if your rear wheels are touching the white line. Although, if you take a closer look it seems like your right side wheel is barely touching the line. The redlight camera takes two photographs, first one when you trigger the sensor and the second one when you are in the middle of the intersection. Is there any other evidence to show the position of your vehicle when the light was yellow?

    • Euphemistic on 24/04/2020 - 09:38
      +1

      No further evidence is necessary. To move 2.5tonne of SUV at around 25km/h indicates that it was moving at the time of the first photo, ergo it crossed the line after the red.

  • GrimCheaper on 24/04/2020 - 09:43

    I had something similar happen to me. Was at big intersection and the line to wait was about 2 metres away from the entry point, so plenty of room before getting past the first set of lights and entering the traffic. The left arrow went free (not the main light, it was still red) and I accidentally went forward half a meter, not enough to even pass the light and enter the traffic, but I did go a bit over the line.

    I also received a fine, and they sent a picture which showed my car less than halfway over the line, and my lights were red.

    Tried to ask for review, no luck. My advice is to cop it and just pay. It will cost you too much to fight it, and it end up costing you more, both finacially and also mentally. Yes, it seems unfair. But you have to pick you fights in life, and decide what is worth your time and effort. Focus that energy somewhere else.

    I can tell by your comments you came here looking for justification. Yes, it was a mistake, but that doesn't mean it's right. And it also doesn't mean you get a free pass becuase of your intentions. You'll get over the injustice, just move on. It's not worth fighting it. It will only cause you more grief.

  • macdaddyjordan on 24/04/2020 - 09:56

    you've clearly gone through a red light

  • gimme on 24/04/2020 - 10:14
    +2

    OP here's a tip for you, since you're game enough to ask for non-bargain related 'advice' on this forum.

    You will receive hundreds of righteous/garbage/unrelated/irrelevant/pay&learn etc etc 'advice' and 1-2 actually useful suggestions from a very small % of forum members with intelligence and experience. The idea is NOT to engage with the 99% and wait for that nugget :) It'll save yourself the aggravation and the negs from kboard warriors.

    carry on….

  • crashloaded on 24/04/2020 - 11:43

    This is why you should just use stolen plates, the fine for incorrect plates is a lot less.

  • esty on 24/04/2020 - 12:33

    quick driving test. What do you do at a yellow light?

    • TEER3X on 24/04/2020 - 12:36
      +1

      According to the T-800 model Terminator, you floor it.

    • Yummy on 24/04/2020 - 12:49

      When at yellow, drivers (especially Mercs) should look at the top right sign and assume "drive thru" at any time and at all cost.

  • HereYeeHereYee on 24/04/2020 - 12:42

    Unless you have a medical emergency or along a reasonable excuse (car rear ended you and pushed your car past the lines), getting out of a red light ticket is near impossible.

    1. Invest a GPS with inbuilt red light/speed camera alert.

    2. Don't floor it at red rights

    • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 13:02

      Yeah red light tickets are very difficult to win.

      • xuqi on 24/04/2020 - 13:06
        +1

        You stated reasons won't stand up to scrutiny, or in court. Pay the fine, and move on.

        Had you driven up close to the truck following it in to the intersection (past the lines whilst lights were still green/yellow), then you wouldn't have been fined.

        They won't care or consider your 'intention', but rather your actions.

        There was a 4 seconds Yellow light with slow moving traffic, giving you ample time to stop.

  • Morphio25 on 24/04/2020 - 13:24
    +1

    Not sure why you think you should have potentially reviewed this or not OP. First photo clearly shows you are guilty of the offence. 0.6 seconds since the light went red and a further 4 seconds when the light was orange totals 4.6 seconds that you should have used to stop your vehicle behind the stop line. Not hard and if you think otherwise then please hand your license in to the relevant authorities.

  • ddhar on 24/04/2020 - 13:46
    +1

    Should have waited behind the line until the intersection is clear, i.e. sweeper has crossed onto the street across. Never queue behind another vehicle at an intersection, especially one with a camera.

  • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 15:00
    +1

    Looks like I did break a red light, I'll pay for it. Service NSW reviewed the footage for me.

    • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 15:01
      +1

      There's no arguing or denying it. Should've been more careful.

      • Hybroid on 24/04/2020 - 16:06

        Good on you for admitting fault. Not many people would own up and do that. Respect and good luck.

    • sunnyc on 24/04/2020 - 15:03

      Looks like easiest way to see if you break a red light is if you just ask to see the footage.

  • abb on 24/04/2020 - 15:59

    Must have crappy brakes on that fancy car if you can't stop for the amber light while moving slowly.

  • Moderatorscotty on 24/04/2020 - 16:23

    OP has found the answer. Thanks for the discussions.

    /thread

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