Red Light Camera Traffic Fine NSW

crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 12:25

Hello OzBargainers,

Looking for some advice.

My wife's car got a $457 fine + 3 demerit points for crossing a traffic light on red signal. She has learner licence and I have full licence. Actually this time, I was driving her car and she was sitting next to me and that's when we got the fine. The notice also says learner and provisional licence holders may incur additional points.

A couple of years ago on my L I got $330 fine and 4 demerit points for driving in bus lane. But when I converted to full licence (as I had overseas licence more than 3 years old), I only had 1 demerit point left in my licence. So, currently I have 1 demerit point.

My question is should I ask my wife to transfer the fine in my name as I was the one actually driving?
Also, if my wife pays the fine, how much demerit points would be deducted as she is on her L's (soon to get full licence as she has overseas licence older than 3 years). If she pays the fine, will they ask her later to nominate the driver sitting next to her as she has L licence?

I know its my fault, I am ready to pay and learn my lesson. But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?
I think dispute may not be an option as I remember crossing the traffic light while it was amber and they have photographic evidence too. I am based in NSW.

Pics attached for your reference.

https://imgur.com/a/CwyB2uN

Automotive

closed Comments

      • GG57 on 19/05/2020 - 15:53

        Right of way = Give way; it is just expressed differently depending who the intended audience is.

        • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 16:38
          +5

          Right of way =/= give way. Right of way implies that you have some "right" given to you that usurps all else, and that just isn't the case. You cant just push your way through traffic and say "well, I have the right to…"

          Even if another vehicle has to give way to you, you still have the obligation to avoid getting into an accident with them, even if they don't give way (for whatever reason). You cant just turn into the path of a vehicle and claim "right of way."

          Euphamisitc is much better at explaining it than I am.

      • Gauntlet on 19/05/2020 - 16:24
        +1

        I didn't know that, thanks. Now I can annoy my friends even more!
        Don't get me started on "12 items or less" though. GRRRR!

        • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 16:31

          The "you looking to get stabbed going though that lane with that much shit in your basket?" lane…

          Even if I have a small basket of 13 or more things and get called over to that lane because it is empty… I still don't use it… "No thanks lady, I'm not getting stabbed today!!"

          • whichtyler on 19/05/2020 - 17:08
            +4

            @pegaxs: I think Gauntlet is referring to the fact that it should be "12 items or fewer".

      • Ughhh on 19/05/2020 - 17:28
        -1

        Whats a simple shorter version to describe the position where the other driver is obligated to give way to you?

        If you have the green light, then you have ________ and the other has the obligation to give way to you.

        • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 17:38
          +1

          If you have the green light, then you have ________ and the other has the obligation to give way to you.

          I don't know, seems pretty straight forward to me.

          • Ughhh on 19/05/2020 - 17:42

            @pegaxs: Not straight forward enough to answer without ignoring the question it appears. Wish I could do that in my exams, just cross out everything I dont know how to answer and ignore it.

            • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 17:51

              @Ughhh:

              If you have the green light, the other has to give way.

              Did that make it easier? You asked "what's a simple shorter version", and that is it. The strike through was to show that I didn't alter what you asked, just omitted the shit that wasn't required.

              There is no "right of way" in the Australian Road Rules. But, if you do find something that in the ARR that says "Driver A has right of way", please, feel free to post a link to the relevant legislation.

              "Right of Way" is about access across other people land. ie: If your property is totally surrounded by neighboring properties, you can still access your property by an easement through another person's property.

              • Ughhh on 19/05/2020 - 19:11
                -2

                @pegaxs: Thats not how you answer fill in the blanks questions…

                I didnt say anything about "right of way", so,

                There is no "right of way" in the Australian Road Rules. But, if you do find something that in the ARR that says "Driver A has right of way", please, feel free to post a link to the relevant legislation.
                "Right of Way" is about access across other people land. ie: If your property is totally surrounded by neighboring properties, you can still access your property by an easement through another person's property.

                • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 19:24

                  @Ughhh: Sooo… everyone else was talking about "right of way" and you interjected on a different topic?? Or were you referencing to the 12 items or fewer comments? Or the demerit point comment?

                  If you have the green light, then you have ________ and the other has the obligation to give way to you.

                  • If you have the green light, then you have demerit points…
                  • If you have the green light, then you have 12 items or fewer…

                  I give in, what goes in the blank space… "the green light"??? Because it says I have the green light so therefore I must have the green light???

                  • If you have the green light, then you have the green light…
        • Euphemistic on 19/05/2020 - 20:34
          +1

          Yes, if you have a green light the other driver has an obligation to give way, but if they are the OP running a red you have an obligation to give way to avoid an incident despite the green light.

          • Ughhh on 19/05/2020 - 22:33
            -1

            @Euphemistic: I think there's a misunderstanding here, I'm not questioning who has the obligation to give way, rather the term for "when others have the obligation to give way to you".

            • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 22:50

              @Ughhh: I still don't get what you are talking about. You are being very vague and cryptic…

              The term for when others have to give way to me is "others must give way" or "others must remain stationary until safe to proceed, and/or stop if necessary to avoid a collision…"

              From the Australian Road Rules dictionary

              give way, for a driver or pedestrian, means—
              (a) if the driver or pedestrian is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed, or
              (b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision.

              What goes in the blank space?? I honestly am lost…

            • trapper on 20/05/2020 - 02:06
              +2

              @Ughhh: There is no time ever that you are allowed to intentionally ram another vehicle.

              An intentional 'accident' is not an accident, it is a criminal act. Could result in a criminal charge and even jail time.

              It doesn't matter if he ran a red, you have to try and avoid a crash.

            • Euphemistic on 20/05/2020 - 05:25
              +1

              @Ughhh:

              I think there's a misunderstanding here, I'm not questioning who has the obligation to give way, rather the term for "when others have the obligation to give way to you".

              I see. Sure, there is a colloquial term ‘right of way’, but it should be eradicated from our lexicon. It is a very subtle difference in language that implies the driver can carry on regardless when drivers should always be driving defensively and looking out to prevent incidents. Ie being prepared to give way at all times.

              Just because someone else has a higher obligation to give way as described in the road rules does not give the other person the right to carry on without care. Ie they cannot assert any ‘right of way’ as it is not a legal term.

    • kiitos on 20/05/2020 - 13:45
      -1

      Was that always the way? Cos I used to think it was an allocation that was depleted, rather than accumulating up to a limit, did it start out differently and they changed it or something? Unlikely, i know.

  • Davo1111 on 19/05/2020 - 15:17
    +4

    i hope this is a joke. you get your wife to nominate the driver, aka you.

    Anything else is fraud.

  • [Deactivated] on 19/05/2020 - 16:41
    +1

    OP, you won't lose your licence if you cope the fine, if that's what you were worried about. You can accumulate up to 13 points before this happened. Get your wife to nominate you as the driver and cop the fine and demerit points.

    Btw, you should ask Mods to close the thread, since you have your answer.

    • crazyboy on 20/05/2020 - 17:41

      Thanks I want to close this thread. Not sure what to do and who is admin?

  • smpantsonfire on 19/05/2020 - 18:03

    All I need now is bobbified to tell me again the sensor is in the last line hahaha.

    • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 18:45

      Why? Where do/did you think they are??

      • smpantsonfire on 19/05/2020 - 21:19

        In another thread they were trying to tell me the sensor / trigger / loop was located at the last line.

        Not sure how that is possible, as part of a red light fine includes a photo of the car partially behind the stop line, and then another photo past the line.

        I don't know nor care where the sensor is, but I logically know that it wouldn't be that far into the intersection, as some cars would be completely over the stop line before setting off the trigger if it were there.

        • John Kimble on 19/05/2020 - 21:51

          It's before the white line, look for the rectangular cuts in the road. Same as for speed cameras not near traffic lights.

          768 A22
          https://maps.app.goo.gl/ww4k3ZtXTPiEFigu5

          • smpantsonfire on 19/05/2020 - 22:17
            +1

            @John Kimble: They were adamant that it was just before the furthest pedestrian crossing line… Surely not.

          • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 22:18
            +1

            @John Kimble: Those ones in your link are speed camera loops (or sometimes traffic flow loops to gauge the speed and amount of traffic to help with lights further down the road…)

            Red light camera loops are after the solid white stop line and before the middle of the intersection. (The light grey looking rectangles in the pedestrian area.)

            First loop picks up you are over the line. Second loop picks up if you are still moving.

            • John Kimble on 19/05/2020 - 22:26
              +1

              @pegaxs: Yep, I was just trying to show what the cuts in the road look like.

              I guess smpantsonfire is right though, doesn't really matter where they are, just know to stop before the white line. 😂

              • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 22:30

                @John Kimble: The loops behind the stop line are traffic indicator loops. This tells the signal box if there is a vehicle waiting and how long it has been waiting. The loops past the stop line are red light camera.

                This little grey box is for the speed camera.

                So, @pants is right… don't speed, and stop before the white line.

  • [Deactivated] on 19/05/2020 - 18:12
    +8

    https://imgur.com/Fpumilf

    IS THAT A PHONE IN YOUR HAND OP?

    • vivasawadee on 19/05/2020 - 18:43
      +1

      ruh roh!

    • raptormesh on 20/05/2020 - 14:05

      Is that why OP ran the red light? That's (profanity) dangerous.

    • crazyboy on 20/05/2020 - 17:32

      OMG I never use phone while driving and that's the odometer light I guess.

  • fruit on 19/05/2020 - 18:16
    +1

    Given your comment:

    Actually this time, I was driving her car and she was sitting next to me and that's when we got the fine.

    Then,

    My question is should I ask my wife to transfer the fine in my name as I was the one actually driving?

    The answer to your question is:

    It is an offence to fail to nominate the person in charge of the vehicle if you were not the driver at the time of the offence, unless you did not know and could not have found out the name and address of the person.

  • solidussnake on 19/05/2020 - 18:34
    +1

    What a great roasting op got, God I love this place ! Spackbase doesn't disappoint 👍

  • DonWilson on 19/05/2020 - 19:29

    Doesn't look like there's any chance at leniency/dispute.

    I believe the rule with red lights is it's legal if you're already in the intersection when it's red.

    The photos were taken 700ms apart. The first photo was taken 600ms after the light turned red. Based on the position of the car in the first and second photos your entire car would have been outside the intersection when the light turned red. Possibly as much as a car's length back from the line when it changed, but probably more like 2 metres.

    And since the speed limit there is 70km/h which is 19.4m/s and the yellow light was on for 4.5s you would have been up to 90 metres from the light when it changed. Yeah, no luck in getting leniency there.

    As others have said - follow the instructions on the fine and notify who the driver was.

    -edit- I've read through the replies now and your explanation of pulling out of a parking lot actually makes it worse because you would've been going pretty slow. Which makes sense. You only travel ~5m in the 0.7s between photos so you were absolutely capable of seeing the yellow and stopping.

  • DiLs on 19/05/2020 - 20:29

    With that nick name, somehow I am not surprised with this question

  • duluxe2000 on 19/05/2020 - 20:31

    I don't give any advice, I just list the options:

    1. Your wife pays the fine under her name. Her license will be suspended. After 6(?) months, she will get her license back. There is very very small chance that someone in RTA will notice that she has L license and the car does not have L plate. I wouldn't worry about that.

    2. You pay the fine under your name. Then you get suspended. After x months, you can drive again. You will receive a letter stating that you can not drive during this period after you pay the fine.

    • kerfuffle on 19/05/2020 - 20:37
      +1

      There is very very small chance that someone in RTA will notice that she has L license and the car does not have L plate. I wouldn't worry about that.

      A learner driver can have a car registered to them, however I definitely wouldn't recommend driving without L plates as a learner driver. Or use P plates while on your Ls; hefty fines if you get caught

      • payless69 on 20/05/2020 - 07:50

        Hopefully after he paid all fines they ask him to appear in court and an Irate female judge had one of her kids nearly killed by such a driver, then good luck!

    • crazyboy on 20/05/2020 - 17:29

      Thanks

  • trapper on 19/05/2020 - 20:39
    +1

    Man this is gold.

    Here you are publicly planning to break the law, and posting the flipping photos of the incident online.

    Some people got rocks in their head…

    • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 22:35
      +1

      Gotta love an "own goal" from time to time…

    • crazyboy on 20/05/2020 - 17:27

      Not planning to break any law. Read the post again, just asking for advice.

  • yayrobots on 19/05/2020 - 21:01

    You should probably hire a driving instructor for you and your wife if you drive like that. That's a 70km/h road. You crossed the line 0.6 seconds after red, you would have been about 10 meters further back when it went red and 100 meters when it went amber!

    • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 22:41

      you would have been about 10 meters further back when it went red

      Correct, 10m or there about.

      100 meters when it went amber!

      Oh noes!! Not this time…

      At the maximum speed permitted on that road, OP would have been about 80~85m back from the intersection at 70km/h

      100m from the intersection with 4.5 seconds of amber, OP would have had to have been doing 80km/h to cover 100m in 4.5 seconds.

      "MaFFs"

      • yayrobots on 19/05/2020 - 23:25
        +1

        I was calculating it based on the 4.5 amber + 0.6 red (With a little rounding up ;)

  • Pro-crastinator on 20/05/2020 - 00:02

    Why is it always a Toyota?! Usually Camry drivers are the worst… which I suppose makes sense since a learner Corolla driver is working their way up to poor driving supremacy :)

  • Tehcookiemonsta on 20/05/2020 - 04:17
    +1

    Got what you deserved tbh, ppl like you generally kill people… take the damn fine.

    • payless69 on 20/05/2020 - 07:40

      and on top of it want free advise!

  • whooah1979 on 20/05/2020 - 05:59

    The registered operator will get the fine. The person that pays the fine will get the demerit points. What you guys do is up to your wife.

  • mawinmawin on 20/05/2020 - 09:03

    OP,

    Learner cannot have demerit points like the red light jumping as it will suspend their license immediately once fine is paid, so not good for your wife.

    You have just 1 demerit points, so this should be okay (unless you still on P-Plate and will hit the max). If i remember correctly, the notice will have columns to nominate correct driver, your wife can fill your details and send back, then you will get another notice under your name to pay it.

    I dont think you can request for leniency as this is not the first offence as per the RTA records. But if you must, you will have to go through (expensive) lawyers who could find some arguments to convince in court. Hope you will be careful next time.

    • crazyboy on 20/05/2020 - 17:25

      thanks a lot

  • doctordv8 on 20/05/2020 - 11:36
    +1

    You were driving, you ran a Red light, you had a Learner observing and hopefully learning…. Set a great example, man up and wear the infringement.

    As for "But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?"….errr, NO! Pay up and learn the lesson.

    Watch the Dash Cam videos online as see the prangs from running red lights and for that matter, breaking every road rule there is. No excuse, 99.9% of all so called accidents are just poor driving from poor drivers doing the wrong thing.

  • MTAB on 20/05/2020 - 12:17
    +1

    As indicated by others you need to take the consequences; and, it is good to see you have accepted them. As a JP in Queensland I know that when a car owner receives a ticket which has been incurred by another driver, then the other driver or the owner makes a Statutory Declaration to transfer the penalties to the correct person responsible. Knowingly making a false declaration is perjury and that it liable to penalties under the law. If the same process applies in NSW then the driver or the owner would be engaging in an act which is fraudulent in intent but they would technically be committing the criminal act of perjury.

    My advice: never countenance such an action or suggest, coerce or bribe another to commit that crime.

  • pixelhen on 20/05/2020 - 13:00
    +1

    Wonder why is this even a question? Your wife is a learner and L platers are at their most vulnerable from point perspective.

    You bloody ran the red light, and came up even with this question. Far out.

    You have no idea the consequence of your action, red light runners will not get any leniency. 9 out of 10 they will hit someone and usually it is horrific. Consider yourself lucky to miss anyone.

  • kaleidoscope on 20/05/2020 - 18:54

    Name the driver who was actually driving the car at the time of incident. After the nomination, the next party will receive the fine, she won't get any demerit points after a successful nomination.

    Keep Waze app running in background while you're driving :) It'll warn about redlight cameras.

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