Is It an Employees Market Now?

Homr on 01/05/2021 - 22:24

Hey Bargainers,

Just reading this article

https://www.afr.com/companies/professional-services/companie…

Has the tide turned now for employers to value their employees more?

Has anyone here had their workload increased due to covid but no pay increase? My workload increased 300% due to my company aggressively making staff redundant and the staff that didn't get cut had to pick up extra workload and the employer pretty much said to our faces "be grateful that you still have a job during this bad times".

But now the "bad times" doesn't seem as bad anymore.
Is it now the time to ask for pay rise when the company profit is better than forecasted 3-4 months ago?

In the past month we have had 6 staff resigned (2 literally walked out due to high workload stress) and lately our boss has been sending out thank you emails to the team for our recent hard work which is a pretty rare occurrence.

Thoughts?

Education & Work

Comments

  • Orico on 01/05/2021 - 22:28

    lately our boss has been sending out thank you emails to the team for our recent hard work which is a pretty rare occurrence.

    My old boss was a racist borderline sociopath with the amount of empathy as a termite. Sounds like her. hahaha

    • pegaxs on 01/05/2021 - 23:17
      +4

      Omg… is your boss my boss? They must come from the boss factory like that. I think it’s their default setting.

      • Orico on 01/05/2021 - 23:40

        r u an engineer?

  • kfcfatfat on 01/05/2021 - 22:58
    +4

    Boss and project managers need employees to do work. There are two scenarios: They have too much work with not enough resources to do them, or not enough work with too many resources.

    The thank you email is you boss trying to keep whatever resource he (or she) has. You said 6 staffs have left due to workload. Did you boss try to change their mind? Offer them more $$ to stay etc? Typically if you are determined to leave your current employer you would have accepted the external offer before resigning. If you like your current employer and knowing that there are plenty of oppounities out there, and also your boss is desperate, go to talk to your boss to see if he is willing to do something.

    Just FYI, the defence market is going crazy at the moment with all these big defence projects happening right now. All the big primes are doing everything they can to keep and attract employees. Here are several things they are offering now:

    • 4 day week (9.5 hr per day),
    • 9 day fortnight (~8.5 hr per day),
    • 6 weeks annual leaves,
    • employee discounts (coles, woolies, holidays, etc)
    • WFH,
    • flexible working hours,
    • personal fitness related expenses (~ 1k annual limit, yes, apple watch is qualified)
    • Professional training budget
    • team lunchs, dinners, conferences, holidays
    • Homr on 01/05/2021 - 23:12

      thanks, those are good points.

      What type of jobs are defence market? Do they have 9-5 desk jobs?

      • kfcfatfat on 01/05/2021 - 23:25

        No different to a typical engineering company. Jobs includes accounting, project management, engineer, drafters, IT supports etc. However you typically need to have, or able to obtain a security clearance to work there.

        • mini2 on 02/05/2021 - 12:40

          I don't know if the old backdoor still works - join the army reserve and get a clearance that way.

          • brandt on 02/05/2021 - 13:20

            @mini2: Pretty sure most roles only require a Baseline Vetting.

            • mini2 on 03/05/2021 - 11:22

              @brandt: Don't forget about the age old pickle - can't have a job till you're cleared and can't be cleared till you got a sponsor/employer.

        • kfcfatfat on 03/05/2021 - 15:02

          If company is desperate they will employ someone with no clearance base on the fact that they are able to obtain the necessary clearance level for the job and sponsors them to get the clearance. You will basically sit and wait, or support other part of the business until your clearance comes through. Clearance time vary from 4 weeks to 20 months depending on your background, travel history, and clearance level.

    • 87percent on 02/05/2021 - 10:15
      +1

      Yeah my newly graduated cousin just landed a job with some defence project. Her team is based in Canberra, but she’s staying in Melbourne. They asked if she wanted to relocate, but she said she would prefer if she didn’t.

      She’s making really good money (not just for a first real job, but in general)She works 4 days, has a mobile allowance, health allowance, home internet is paid for too

    • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2021 - 12:09

      I just had a look at https://defencecareers.nga.net.au/ and you need to get to EL level before cracking 6 figures. That to me is crap, so I'm not sure what jobs you're looking at? Would be great if you can reply with a link.

      • kfcfatfat on 03/05/2021 - 20:20
        +1

        Gov defence department usually pays less compare to the big defence contractors. Engineering graduates are getting almost ~80k working in big defence contractors. A typical 3-4 years engineer can crack 6 figure easy. Even technicians are getting close to 6 figures in some cases…

        Jumping between companies can nab you 10% to 40% pay rise depending on your skill set and how desperate they are.

        Here are some perks only available in the some (maybe all, not sure) gov departments:

        1. They pay higher super. I think it is ~13.5%, instead of the 9.5%.
        2. You don't need to use your annual leave during xmas office closure. Office typically close for 2 weeks during xmas so you basically get ~7 days extra annual leave.
        • [Deactivated] on 04/05/2021 - 11:52

          Who are these big defence contractors you speak of? I'm interested in looking further into them.

          • kfcfatfat on 04/05/2021 - 21:14

            @[Deactivated]: Here are a few of the defence contractors:
            -BAE Systems
            -Lockheed Martin Australia
            -Raytheon
            -Saab Systems
            -Boeing
            -ASC
            -Naval Group (DCNS)

            Here are the projects happening in Defence.
            https://www1.defence.gov.au/projects

            Two big projects I think are the new submarines ($89B) and frigates ($35B).

    • Homr on 11/05/2021 - 19:57

      You're right about the defence market, the Fed budget just announced some big money being pumped into it.

  • pharkurnell on 01/05/2021 - 23:16
    +2

    Has the tide turned now for employers to value their employees more?

    No. Many places I know have realised they can do the same amount of work with less people.

    • Homr on 01/05/2021 - 23:19

      but is it sustainable? That is the exact situation my workplace is in. Other competitors are offering more pay with less work

      • kfcfatfat on 01/05/2021 - 23:27
        +2

        Sounds like you have answered your own question.

      • pharkurnell on 01/05/2021 - 23:34

        You must work at my work..
        Many business' have been cutting staff for years and years before covid, automation, computerization etc Is it sustainable - some places easily.. others not so

  • SF3 on 01/05/2021 - 23:18
    +3

    Your boss sounds like Mr Burns.

    Your should work for Hank Scorpio, he should pay you more and respect you as a person.

    • Homr on 01/05/2021 - 23:23
      +1

      I wish I could work for a guy like Hank.

      • SF3 on 01/05/2021 - 23:37

        You are Homer ;)

        • holdenmg on 02/05/2021 - 00:33

          I want a Hammock.

  • plmko on 02/05/2021 - 00:11
    +1

    Lol there's an auditor shortage because people are realising how much of a scam the big4 are.

  • TChalla on 02/05/2021 - 01:03

    No, used to work for the Big 4 as an Auditor, it is because their audit model is based on a hamster wheel and when people leave they are often replaced by international secondees for 6 months - 12 months from the States/UK/Europe. Has always worked because they love coming here and travelling weekend when possible and just living in Syd / Mel and some in Brissy, now that the borders are closed they don't have any workers coming in to replace them on these secondments and hence running into staff shortages (they also had redundancies during Covid so have shot themselves in the foot).

    • mini2 on 02/05/2021 - 05:29

      They've been mopping up anyone they can get and now suburban smaller firms are fighting over the food crumbs to replace any resources gone to the Big 4.

  • onetwothreefour on 02/05/2021 - 07:04

    No redundancies at our place but didn't get a payrise last year but did still got a bonus, will be getting both this year but could do with some more staff.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/05/2021 - 08:00
    +2

    Even if it is, it won't remain for too long. The market is not going to work in favour of employees by default because there are many institutions in favour of the employers who will tilt it back to where it was, whereas organisations of employees are at best inactive.

  • Nugs on 02/05/2021 - 08:08
    +5

    "My workload increased 300%"
    To have four times the work, were you only doing two hours work per day before? Or perhaps you now have 32hrs work per day.
    .

  • This Guy on 02/05/2021 - 08:44
    +1

    Yes and no. You can trip over a professional services job like you could pre 2012, but we don't have consistent high salaries. Some mines are paying slightly higher, but not boom wages. Incentives seem to be up ~15% at desperate employers. But we are not quite at the point when people are rejecting entry level jobs for minimum wage.

    If your work load has truly been 300% higher for close to a year now, and you can see other attractive options in your field, you should ask your boss to double your pay with something like:

    "Hey [boss's first name],

    I am doing the work of three employees.

    Are you going to double my wage? Or are you going to spend triple on the three people needed to replace me?"

    If they come back with yes, or we will think about it, say:

    "Thank you!

    I understand this might take a few days to sort the paperwork so let's met in on [day - one week] at [time] to sort out any paper work."

    While you should accept any increase in salary, if you are truly doing the work claimed, if you are rejected, or offered less than a 30 to 60% increase (your choice, what you value your decrease in life span due to increased work stress) you should fish around at competitors for a better offer as they are likely in the same position (looking to replace an employee they overworked because they suck 'Covid' and undervalued before they left).

  • nubzy on 02/05/2021 - 09:35
    +1

    All i've noticed is that clients are giving me less work, and it's harder than ever to find good new clients. So i'm taking some time off work to relax now. Amazon Flex want drivers, but they only pay $108 for 4 hours work and you run your own car, not very enticing. It's no wonder people don't want to fill so many of these roles being advertised when they do not pay enough and are completely exploitative.

    • Presence on 02/05/2021 - 10:26

      $27 per hour is pretty terrible when you take the cost of running a car into account, if you are actually driving constantly that's roughly $10/h in fuel alone!!

  • popsiee on 02/05/2021 - 10:21
    +1

    My workload increased 300% due to my company aggressively making staff redundant and the staff that didn't get cut had to pick up extra workload and the employer pretty much said to our faces "be grateful that you still have a job during this bad times".

    Sound like companies have been inspired by the Amazon work culture of push productivity till Employee's burn out .
    Winners : Shareholder's and companies .
    Losers : Employee's

  • chasis on 02/05/2021 - 11:08
    +1

    In terms of the job market (IT specifically), it feels like it's an employee's market.

    I can never remember it being so hard to to hire someone. Firstly, the standard of candidate is much lower than previous; and then when we make an offer they have already got another job. Not sure if it's that noone is moving because they want security, but now is definitely a good time to be looking.

    • Homr on 02/05/2021 - 16:54

      I'll probably be flame for this but anyway. I'd say the standard of applicants are lower is probably because those are the people that got made redundant during pandemic. Normally the weakest workers get made redundant. Sorry if I offended anyone.

      • chasis on 02/05/2021 - 17:44

        I think that's a fair point, but from what I have noticed there are just less applicants all together.

        • Homr on 02/05/2021 - 17:46

          maybe your salary offer is too low?

          • chasis on 02/05/2021 - 17:48

            @Homr: Salaries are pretty stagnant. This is offering approximately $10k pa more than the exact same job 18months ago and we had plenty of good applicants then (yes, bad ones too).

            • Homr on 02/05/2021 - 18:19

              @chasis: That's bizarre, would like to know why the shortage of applicants.

              Can you guys promote within? Does your company pay internal candidates lower than external candidates? Mine does

              • chasis on 02/05/2021 - 21:49

                @Homr: The role title has a large range of skills. We pay higher than average, but are also looking for higher than average candidates.

                We do promote from within, but it is the entry level jobs we are hiring for (mind you these are paying ~$95k). While they are entry level in our department, we are looking for people who hold transferable experience.

                • Homr on 02/05/2021 - 22:33

                  @chasis: $95k for an entry level job?

                  • chasis on 08/05/2021 - 08:00

                    @Homr: yes

                    • Homr on 08/05/2021 - 09:37

                      @chasis: Entry level as in straight out of university entry level? What sort of job is it?

                      • chasis on 09/05/2021 - 18:03

                        @Homr: I may have used the phrase entry-level wrong.

                        This is for cyber security analyst. Experience is wanted it gernal IT (such as service desk) but not previous cyber experience needed (for this particular role).

    • Cynicaloflife on 08/05/2021 - 00:45
      +1

      I am in Perth and the job market seems to be terrible.

      I contacted recruitment agencies and got laughed at for demanding at least 90K. I have 2-3 years experience as a software developer at blue chip ASX Companies. .

      • Hybroid on 08/05/2021 - 00:56

        It's interesting how that differs in the Engineering space. Multi-national companies are offering huge pay rises and relocation costs begging people to move from Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane to Perth which is crying out for skilled resources. No one wants to go though. No idea why, haven't been there yet.

        • Cynicaloflife on 13/05/2021 - 12:01

          Do you know anyone hiring software developers/IT professionals?

  • nephilim on 02/05/2021 - 21:58

    We are getting this from the company, blah blah working hard to keep good people, constant new people. At same time we never got the promised delayed raise due to covid.
    I know a few of us will be leaving if end of year doesn't being a big pay increase

  • [Deactivated] on 02/05/2021 - 23:14
    +1

    "The loser in any negotiation is the one who can't afford to walk away with no deal."

    • Question, if you ask your manager for a pay rise and they say no, can you leave the company?
    • Question, if your manager thinks you might leave, are they desperate for you to stay?

    Your answer lies in between those two questions.

  • Homr on 02/05/2021 - 23:24

    If you ask your manager for a pay rise and they say no, can you leave the company? I will be passively looking but I won't be desperate for a new job

    If your manager thinks you might leave, are they desperate for you to stay? I don't know, but I feel lately there's desperation starting to kick in

    • kfcfatfat on 03/05/2021 - 20:45
      +2

      Rule number one, don't resign unless you already have an offer in hand, unless you really have to.

      I remember there was one time my mentor told me he likes to job search very fortnight and see what is out there. He would apply for the positions he likes even he didn't have the intention to leave the company. The reasons he did it were: 1. keep his CV up to date, 2. See how much he is worth, 3. Take the offer to his boss to bluff for a pay rise.

      Also, take a look at this

      https://www.linkedin.com/posts/simoncassell_2019-no-pay-rise…

      • Homr on 03/05/2021 - 20:55

        Thanks, the linkedin post is what I also had it mind. The thing is, if I chose to stay, do you reckon the potential new employer would be pissed of for getting used?

        • kfcfatfat on 03/05/2021 - 22:01

          Typically they would have several candidates. If you reject their offer they will offer the second prefer candidates. However, think of a good reason to reject the offer and be respectful. The fact is you are not using them. You are legit mentally looking for a better job with better condition. And if your current employer gives you a counter offer better than the new job, then is up to you to decide which to pick.

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