Possibility of mounting a legal case on EV tax on PHEVs?

Always appreciate the insights of Ozbargainers..so here goes.

I'm an 8 year old PHEV owner who uses around 8L/100km petrol. I bought the car a couple of years ago with the idea of reducing my carbon footprint in terms of total fuel used, not wasting energy when braking and having access to electric power when camping.

The Vic government passed a bill based on a document saying that:

A PHEV is "predominantly electric powered" .It isn't. 600km comes from petrol, 20-30km electric. The predominant power is the petrol engine. In my regional setting, 100% of my energy comes from petrol.

The document implies that fuel excise is used by state governments to maintain roads. It isnt. It's a federal tax for general revenue.

The document implies PHEV users aren't paying for road repairs At 8L per hundred, I'd assume my fuel usage is around average, maybe just above. I'm paying just as much as everyone else. But again, fuel usage doesn't = road charges anyway. But it is implied.

So currently no one pays to use roads. But the tax starting July 1 charges EV / PHEV users only. Does this imply only EVs damage the road? The road charge should be for all vehicles, otherwise it is discriminatory.

There is a perception created that PHEVs are luxury vehicles. My car is 8 years old and I paid $16k for it a couple of years ago! It's done almost 200 000km.

The document implies the EV tax will be used to install charging infrastructure. My PHEV uses an old type 1 plug. These are superseded. There will be no type 1 chargers installed (why am I paying again)?

These new bills are normally rolled out retrospectively. I had no way of knowing this would be a thing when I bought it years ago. New buyers can beware, but to enforce on existing owners who have paid there stamp duty? This will also impact resale values.

The document implies that electric energy is free. It isn't. Even if using solar, grid connection charges are payable and those charging their car forgo feed in tarrifs. There is always a cost. Charging from the grid is currently more expensive than Petrol. So petrol power is the obvious choice unless you want to do your part for the environment. Imagine having an interest in the environment Victorian government?

Lastly, there must be something in the constitution that says a state government can't

a) implement a federal charge. Ie they charge for KMs regardless of the state travelled..ie. people in Mildura or Albury etc may travel predominantly on interstate roads, but Vic government collects on these roads. Surely a high court challenge for this?

b) triple dip (excise+GST+road charge).

I see it being the same as charging a tax on people who use RC airconditioners instead of resistive element heating or gas (as they aren't paying a fair share of electricity..madness).

In summary, the passing of a state bill with technical falsified statements (and blatant lies) that has federal coverage can't be legally binding ?

Love to know peoples thoughts. So sad we are the only government in the world that discourages environmental benefit (be it gas, coal or petrol).

Comments

  • +7

    I'm an 8 year old PHEV owner who uses around 8L/100km petrol. I bought the car a couple of years ago with the idea of reducing my carbon footprint in terms of total fuel used, not wasting energy when braking and having access to electric power when camping.

    You are going it wrong. There is no point owning a PHEV if you don’t do the P bit.

    If you want power for camping, get a solar panel and a second battery.

    Do agree the tax is dumb.

    • +2

      Agreed, if not using the P bit, might as well got a hybrid!

      • Couldn't find a Hybrid with 4WD ability anywhere near the same price. P bit is a bonus in grid lock traffic. But the P bit is not meant for 100km/ h driving. Everyone lives in the city don't they?? …..Government have no clue….

    • +1

      PHEV is 240v with 12kwh output for $16k. You cant buy a solar/ battery package with those specs for what I paid (plus it comes with a 4wd attached to it).

    • A 2009 Lexus RX450h has better fuel efficiency than this PHEV that OP has. I don't see the point in having PHEV when the fuel efficiency is this bad. Unless the use case for PHEV is driving short distances near home and saving fuel there and having long range with petrol. Regardless of intent it seems like OP has purchased the wrong vehicle.
      Now on the topic of this thread, yes the VIC Tax on electric cars is very silly.

  • +3

    So currently no one pays to use roads

    Yes they do.

    I'm an 8 year old PHEV owner who uses around 8L/100km petrol

    Sounds like you aren't doing much of the "P" or the "E" part, so what is the point of a phev for you exactly?

    I see it being the same as charging a tax on people who use RC airconditioners instead of resistive element heating or gas (as they aren't paying a fair share of electricity..madness).

    Not sure what sort of mental gymnastics you used here.

    • Other than road tolls (which I still need to pay on top anyway), who else pays for roads in any way different than what I already do?

      • +1

        Fuel excise, as has already been explained to you, all these taxes go into the same bucket, and then they use the bucket to pay for things. Whether they spend more or less on roads than they get is irrelevant to them, as they will just make up another tax for fun anyway, gotta pay for all these politicians somehow.

        Sell your outlander, and buy a small diesel if you want fuel economy, and to pay less tax.

        • Fuel excise is general revenue. This is an exclusive charge to use a road. So PHEV owners will be the only group who pay fuel excise plus a road charge. As per earlier comment, the PHEV is the only car that suits my needs, and I bought it years ago.

          • +1

            @tunzafun001:

            Fuel excise is general revenue. This is an exclusive charge to use a road.

            If you insist.

            the PHEV is the only car that suits my needs

            Extremely unlikely.

            • -1

              @brendanm: I will be visiting a property with a car full of people, that has no grid connected power (but is 240v). Will be powering the entire house/ lighting etc from my car. Will be running a wet saw, Hilti Jack Hammer, angle grinder etc for a few hours. Will be there for a day or so, so will be cooking food, running a fridge etc. No sun for solar at the moment.

              What other car could do this? Maybe a dual cab ute with a genie in a trailer, but I would be shot having a genie running at night.

              All a bit irrelevant anyway in the context of this post. I pay excise like everyone else, enough said.

              • +1

                @tunzafun001: A generator. Lifepo pack. Sure seems ridiculous to buy a weird car for one day of off grid power.

                All a bit irrelevant anyway in the context of this post. I pay excise like everyone else, enough said.

                Not if you don't want to pay twice, as seems the case. The odds of anyone giving a crap about the 8 people that bought a PHEV are very low.

                • @brendanm: Not one day, I do this or similar twice a month…anyway…

                  Definitely agree on this part.. "Not if you don't want to pay twice, as seems the case. The odds of anyone giving a crap about the 8 people that bought a PHEV are very low.'.

                  Hence this post was about legal options, and hopefully make people aware that this slippery slope of ignorance is ultimately going to effect everyone, and other states to be aware that this crap is going on and vote this nonsense out before it gets to your state.

                  As another user mentions below, with MMT, there is no need for this. Pure EV owners have comparable electricity costs that end up in the same gov coffers as fuel excise. PHEV owners pay fuel excise.

  • +3

    Best course of action would be some kind of class action of other PHEV owners who are getting slugged by criminal politicians for doing their best to stop carbon emission, climate change, Greta etc. Find some PHEV owners forums online and ask the question there, might get better responses and a gauge of how others are feeling. But now that govcorp is right into MMT and started QE here back in February last year there's no 'ethical' reason for them to raise taxes at all , IIUC, IMO.

    • +1

      Hi mate, can you elaborate on this "But now that govcorp is right into MMT and started QE here back in Feb"?

      • +2

        'MMT' Modern Monetary Theory

        https://www.investopedia.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-4588...

        " Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is a heterodox macroeconomic framework that says monetarily sovereign countries like the U.S., U.K., Japan, and Canada, which spend, tax, and borrow in a fiat currency that they fully control, are not operationally constrained by revenues when it comes to federal government spending.

        Put simply, such governments do not rely on taxes or borrowing for spending since they can print as much as they need and are the monopoly issuers of the currency. Since their budgets aren’t like a regular household’s, their policies should not be shaped by fears of rising national debt. "

        'QE' 'Quantitative Easing'

        Basically printing money, the yanks have been doing it consistently since around 2008 to keep the charade going but last year they printed around 30% of the existing supply of USD (I think it was 30%..either way, we're talking trillions), out of thin air, backed by nothing. This of course devalues the existing worth of your dollars and causes inflation to boot.

        Hope that helps.

        • +1

          Ah got ya. Yeah tax is basically an inflationary control mechanism. Lukenomics does a good overview of it. In this context, we don't need to tax any vehicles doing their part for global warming, and definitely don't need to double tax us who already pay a tax.

          • @tunzafun001: Some taxes are purported to be an instrument for wealth distribution, eg. the Luxury Car Tax, which has a small benefit of charging wealthier car buyers more than the rest. Fuel excise along with most other taxes, and Quantitative Easing are feeding just the Federal coffers, so the State government misses out. Perhaps why the Victorian govt wants to add their own tax / revenue source, so they can bypass some of Canberra's funding red tape.

            • @Krzytofferz: Don't think a 2014 Mitsi could be called a luxury car.
              As for the later, hopefully everyone can see this is ultimately a bad decision for everyone, and sends them waking at the next election

              How many know Europe has over 200 EV vehicle options? I challenge someone in Australia to name 10, even
              5.

              Why…because manufacturers won't bother sending them here because of crap policy like this.

              Article here …but take your pick. It is ultimately effecting us all.

              https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10007155...

  • +6

    People do pay to use road via fuel excise. I see this argument all the time that it’s going to general revenue. So fricken what?

    Is your problem that each actual dollar is not marked with luminescent dye and can be traced to paying the salary of road crew? The fact is that government collectively spend billions building and maintaining roads. Fuel excise provides funds that allow this to happen.

    If you have a PHEV and are getting 8L overall, then you wasted your money buying one.

    • +1

      There's probably a better argument to be made that it's not a state government problem, it's a federal one. Fuel excise is a federal tax so the responsibility for the funding is a federal one, the states shouldn't come along and tax it.

    • People do pay to use road via fuel excise. I see this argument all the time that it’s going to general revenue. So fricken what?

      When the tax on fuel was phased in many decades ago, it was pitched to users that it was to pay for new roads and upkeep etc.

      Roll on to day, it just goes into general revenue and there are no real checks/balances on it. If road users are paying more 'tax' than is being spent on roads, then that's not really fair to call it a road tax to pay for the roads now? Plus the gov is loving toll roads too. So again the user pays twice?

      Why doesn't the gov make it 'fair' for everyone, remove all fuel tax at the point of purchase and charge everyone a flat 2-3c/km to drive on the road?

    • The Vic government are the one who state that fuel excise is for road maintenance, not me!

      My problem being I pay this excise, but now asking to pay a double dip tax (technically a triple dip with GST).

      As a regional rural driver who spends a lot of time off grid, my car is a brilliant portable off-grid 4wd power station. Unfortunately you are thinking like the government. A PHEV owner is a metropolitan driver who plugs in every day and only drives 20km.

      • Well that’s what they were designed for. Not our fault you’re using it like a normal petrol car.

        But I do understand your point about double dip tax. That sucks.

    • The flip side to that argument is of course that if govcorp stopped WASTING billions on crap we don;t need and didn't ask for then they wouldn't have to gouge us continually on essentials.

  • +5

    vote the COALition out next election

    • But but but… mah "iNvEsTmErNtZ"

    • +2

      And vote in who exactly? LOL!

      • Shooters and Fishers

      • Dodgy politician no. 56282

      • +2

        The ones that won't leave us up to our necks in worthless brown coal and poisoned waterways from fracking. The ones that don't take holidays to Hawaii while Australia burns.

        I dunno, inanimate carbon rod

        • So, in other words, nobody.

    • +1

      If only we could vote on 'issues' and not people (Muppets) or 'parties'.

  • +1

    The PHEV charge is the most unfair part of this tax. 2.0 cents for PHEV when the EV tax is 2.5 cents makes no sense. Where as EV is 100% electric and thus 'dodges' the fuel excise 100% of the time, in real world a PHEV still gets maybe 80%+ of it's moving energy from petrol. A PHEV might go 50-60km in a best case scenario on a fully charged up battery from the wall (even then some of the battery would have some initial charge in it from being charged by petrol).

    We collectively need to get over this idea that we "pay for the roads" out of fuel excise or per km charges. There is no separate 'road fund' that fuel excise goes into, ALL Commonwealth revenue goes into a consolidated fund. Then things are paid for out of that fund such as giving the states grants for road projects, paying for medicare, defence, centrelink, covid vaccines, interest on debt etc. Similarly the states have consolidated funds that all revenue and commonwealth grants go in to which gets used to pay for the roads, schools, hospitals, interest on debt, covid regional travel vouchers etc. So basically everyone 'pays' for the roads in VIC. The person paying GST in WA on a Sausage Roll is paying for your road, the single guy who cycles to work paying stamp duty on his apartment purchase is paying for your road, the person paying a fine for not wearing a mask under public health orders is paying for your road.

    • My Outlander only does 38kms without A/C on. 50-60kms maybe for Ioniq but that car is far more expensive than the non-EV equivalent.

      State Govt gets extra GST on that extra cost plus extra GST on electricity used to charge plus extra Stamp Duty. It is a lie they are losing revenue.

      I will be selling my PHEV next year so as not to legitimize this creeping road-user tax (Km based tax) but I am not much can be done about it unless you have a new political party that against it. SA is going ahead with it, NSW is soon to go ahead with it and they are both Liberals, who is supposed to be lower tax champion.

      Hope people send a strong negative message in VIC at the next election and maybe other states will reconsider.

      • SA have changed their mind. NSW have a totally different system that will start in 6 years. The ACT give entirely free rego to early EV adopters for paying an initial premium (and therefore tax) that goes into the same general revenue coffers as excise. All other states policies are retrospective. How you legally enforce this on someone who has already paid their stamp duty to the state is beyond me. The Vic system is blatant misguided theft. Especially when you live on the border and do most driving interstate. Hence I'm sure legally it can't stand up?

  • I'm an 8 year old PHEV owner who uses around 8L/100km petrol. I bought the car a couple of years ago with the idea of reducing my carbon footprint in terms of total fuel used, not wasting energy when braking and having access to electric power when camping.

    Honestly you're doing it wrong if you mainly drive on the ICE…..

    My advice, sell the PHEV now while you can, buy a hybrid instead.

    • Honestly you're doing it wrong if you mainly drive on the ICE

      Any illicit drug for that matter really.

      • This is the misconception.

        Mitsubishi PHEV's aren't meant to be plugged in everyday. This is why so many batteries have died 'prematurely'. The battery is too small. It's not a Tesla that can go several days without a charge. Simple maths with lithium cells life = around 2000 cycles in Aussie heat, with huge draw currents from a small battery. 2000/365 (charged daily, which is conservative as many would need to charge twice daily to be full electric). Means a battery life of around 5 years. My car is 8 years old and still has a decent battery because I drive it the way it the way it was built to be used. Its meant to simply reduce fuel usage in traffic going no where, return energy to the battery when going down hills (instead of wasting it as heat and brake pad wear), provide better torque control in 4wd applications and use electricity for stop start acceleration (like a Hybrid). In fact, if you don't use petrol for a while it will override the electric motors and force you to use the petrol engine (the engine runs and you cant shut it off when driving).

        Now if you did attempt to go the full electric path, you are up for $8000 for a new battery every 5 years. Kind of like the idea of using a home solar battery to charge your car every night…MADNESS!! Your $10k battery will be dead in no time.

        It just shows the government have no clue how the technology works.

        • +1

          Sorry to break it to you but what you described as PHEV use case is actually hybrid's promise. From the get go PHEV has been advertised as short distance all electric and long distance ICE. Your issue might be with the manufacturer's or their marketing team who flogged these heavy/inefficient PHEV Outlanders somehow as better for environment.
          Hybrid is for passively reducing fuel usage and giving help during stop start traffic, PHEV is for electric short trips to shopping malls and nearby destinations while still having long distance ability.

          • @OpayuOnam: Both are Hybrids, so yeah. But it's not an EV (plug in and drive car). Especially on rural roads. My common drive is 880km return. ($16+ bill coming on top of fuel costs). Most of that trip isn't even on Vic roads! The electric will get me through a handful of towns at 50km/h, but at 100km/h no PHEV will do this pure electric. The tax says predominantly electric powered vehicles, i think we all agree a PHEV or hybrid aren't this.

            • +1

              @tunzafun001: Both are hybrids, but their promise and approach is different. PHEV was designed to be mainly recharged from the grid (plug-in) and therefore give you those "free" short trips. Hybrid was designed as a no frills the car will deal with the recharge approach and overall lower fuel.
              Neither of them would really be good for your 880km drive. For that you want a larger engine which can comfortably seat at 1500rpm and do 100km/h or so.

              The tax for PHEV specify retrospective is just plain silly, the older PHEVs will be no where near what newer PHEVs can do.
              If you're aim is to get better fuel, I still suggest selling this large SUV and getting a sedan.

            • @tunzafun001: You still bought the wrong car for your usage.

              Hybrids aren’t designed for long distance driving (yet) plug in or not. They are meant for city driving.

              • @Euphemistic: OP didn't buy the right hybrid.

                If it was a 2004 Prius they'd be doing 5L - 8L per 100kms.

                • @netjock: But would be running largely on petrol only in country driving. The main benefits of hybrid are in stop start driving. Pretty much any comparable sized car to the Prius will do similar economy in the country, just won’t do it in urban driving.

                  • -1

                    @Euphemistic: No they won't. Drag coefficient guarantee they won't even come near 5L/100km in 2004. Even current generation Camry hybrid is 6.4L on highway and it is 16 years later.

                • @netjock: I appreciate the sentiment, but show me another car with 12kwh of offgrid power support (I can use any 240v tool or device when out bush), 4WD, big boot, uses 8L / 100km and is under $16k… I'll buy it in a heart beat. If you saw the tracks I drive, a Prius ain't going to cut it.

                  Definitely the right car for me.

                  Shouldn't matter anyway. You know the tax has missed the mark significantly when it encourages the use of diesel. The road tax should be for everyone, or no one, period.

                  • @tunzafun001:

                    4WD

                    Outlander isn't 4wd

                    • @SBOB: Badge on the back suggests it is.
                      Yeah, yeah purists will say it doesn't have locking hubs etc, but it uses a wet clutch to lock the axles and apportions torque to the front and back where ever needed. I can reverse a trailer up hill with constant linear torque.(take note uncle Dan, this is why some of us own PHEVs).

                      While it isn't going to cross a 3 foot deep river crossing, it does climb rocky outcrops throughout the Flinders and launches a boat off a soft sand beach quite well. Heck, it competes in the Paris Dakar Rally. A Prius isn't going to do that. No idea of any other hybrids off road ability. I don't think the Rav 4 hybrid drives all wheels at all.

                      But the true gem is that is has a DC converter that can provide 2.5kw at 240v no problem. Try that in a cruiser and your alternator will be smoking. No generator required, it's built in.

                      Anyway, getting off track. This isnt the car for this tax.

  • PHEV tax I don't agree with. It needs to be more like 1c per kilometer.

    PHEV only good in the cities where you can plug and EV without using much fuel (same with hybrids). At least OP got it cheap.

    If you live in the country you need good high way economy which basically means diesel or smaller engine. Probably would have been better off looking at vehicles with either diesel or petrol engines around 1.4 - 1.8L capacity as they usually use between 4 - 8L combined cycle.

    • I'd argue that for country you are actually better of with a bigger engine car which would be more efficient in the 80-110KM/h range. As evident with OP use case these small engine heavy cars are actually not that good for long distance drive.
      My 20yo 3.0L V6 does remarkably in country driving and cruising (5-7L/100KM) while in city it goes up in the 10-12L/100KM range. Meanwhile the 1.6L 4cyl Hyundai we have does really bad in highway (9-11L/100KM) but much better in city driving around 6-8L/100KM.

      • small engine heavy cars are actually not that good for long distance drive

        PHEV is small engine heavy because there is addition of batteries and electrics.

        There is almost no ICE only cars which have small engines for heavy bodies.

        Meanwhile the 1.6L 4cyl Hyundai we have does really bad in highway (9-11L/100KM) but much better in city driving around 6-8L/100KM

        Not sure which Hyundai you are picking. Current Corolla ICE only is 5L/100km.
        Source: government green vehicle guide

        ICEs are generally better on highways than urban start stop.

        • There is plenty of underpowered ICE cars out there. The more we move towards SUVs the more the this number of underpowered cars grow.

          I've got a Accent which is about 6 or so years old. Cannot compare brand new cars with older ones. Also never trust the official fuel ratings. Ask that from many Mazda customer who bought the Zoom Zoom SkyActiv models with the promise of 6L/100km fuel efficiency thanks to their eyesstop and never delivered.

          Real world figures are always at least 20% worst than the quoted figures.

          • @OpayuOnam:

            Real world figures are always at least 20% worst than the quoted figures.

            People who don't do their own research.

            I've got a Corolla Hybrid Sedan and I have managed to hit the official 3.6L/100km on the highway. haven't been able to hit 3.5L in the city because I don't drive on ECO mode but average 4L which is about 10% of the 3.5L rating.

            Also had a Smart car which is a 0.7L rated at 5L/100km and managed to hit those numbers.

            There is plenty of underpowered ICE cars out there. The more we move towards SUVs the more the this number of underpowered cars grow.

            That is more of a personal opinion than a fact it seems. If you look at 0-100 times it hasn't blown out exponentially with SUVs.

            • +1

              @netjock:

              number of underpowered cars grow.

              Definitely personal opinion. Underpowered for what exactly? I haven’t driven a car that struggles in traffic that is built this century.

  • +3

    Don't stress… ALL cars will have this tax imposed on them in the next few years. They are just going after the smallest owner segment that can do the least about it.

  • +1

    Average fuel consumption across the board is falling in Australia. Where it used to be common to burn 12L/100km in a large family car, now you can get something of equal size that burns 8, and less if it's a hybrid.

    My current car is a diesel and burns 5L/100km (real world figures) and I love paying less for fuel, and of course less tax. But the problem is every few years politicians think of reforming the entire system and taxing distance traveled instead of fuel for all cars, primarily because cars are becoming more efficient.

    PHEVs and EVs are just the first and easy step on the taxation reform agenda. EVs are still vehicles that only wealthy people buy (or those that like lots of debt). PHEVs are an oddity in the middle of EVs and hybrids, and I agree that they shouldn't attract the new tax. How does the government know when your vehicle switches from electric to petrol? It doesn't, and it can't, therefore the tax doesn't make any sense.

    It's difficult to know what to do. The obvious action is to sell the PHEV before it becomes a turkey no one wants, but politicians could change their minds tomorrow and scrap the PHEV tax.

    • Its crazy when you realise a 1litre turbo polo has the same weight to power ratio of a old V6 Magna and uses half the petrol.

      • -1

        The V6 Magna does it's job effortlessly and smoothly while the polo's small turbo induction engine has to be pushed really hard to get useful power. Numbers on paper are all cool and fun but real world feel and delivery is a complete different ball game.

        • 40 years ago a 5-6L V8 was considered large and lazy, while a 3L V6 in a family car was ‘working too hard’. Times have changed, efficiency and build quality has improved so while a 1L turbo might be highly strung compared to a 3L V6 it’ll likely last just as long if you drive both with the same level of intensity.

          • @Euphemistic: Only time will tell how long these new heavily stressed turbo engines last. There is no argument that newer engine technology is more efficient but realistically we haven't had a massive breakthrough since around 2006-7 for ICE engines in terms of technology. All we've done is turbo or supercharge them.
            I've seen way too many eco turbos go bust with $2-5k repairs to have much hope in them.
            Even the "reliability master" Toyota's turbo engines end up with turbo issues after a while.

            • @OpayuOnam: What was the breakthrough in 2006-7?

              Everything has been incremental IMO.

              There are plenty of ‘high strung’ turbo diesel 4cyls doing half a million kms. No reason petrols cant.

              • @Euphemistic: Maybe variable multi valve technology? Also uber high compression like Sky Active.

                Most of the PHEVs stop / start driving is electric, so the engine ticks over reasonably constant under minimal stress. I'm close to 200 000kms. Engine compression hasn't changed a bit and the oil runs super clean. That being said my old LPG commodore did 700 000km and still felt good. Guessing a hybrid engine, and probably any ICE should do a million km no issue with half decent maintenance.

                Transaxle on the other hand has some pretty ordinary oil coming out of it. But hasn't missed a beat and required zero repairs to date. Mitsi do make a good engine. .. take note Dan…'engine'.

  • Location Adelaide

    Is SA introducing this tax also?

    In my regional setting

    Why PHEV or even hybrid in a regional setting?

  • Just leave this dumpster fire of a state. Took me a month to sell and buy interstate.

    They'll be trying to recoup the billions in losses from lockdown for years to come. Expect a lot more dumb taxes, hiked fees and fines in coming months.

    • It seems like after Kennett fixed the state labour has come in and longer they are in power the more the state ends up in the dumpster.

      • Kennet, as in Jeff Kennet? The guy who closed all the mental hospitals, then went on to founded depression hotline (gov funded, of course) ?
        That fixer?

        Who needs comedy when real life has this stuff.

        • Eh, Dan Andrews said hold my beer Jeff.

          I'm going to merge and underfund the department of health with the department of human services. I'll make sure no one is in charge of either for good measure.

          We were in great shape for a pandemic.

          • +1

            @jaimex2: ..and who needs to setup a proper quarantine facility with medical experts when you have hotels with untrained employees.

            And not learn from it almost 2 years later ..

            It's the Muppet Show!!

            • @tunzafun001: Definitely should be the intro music to every press conference.

  • I do see your point.
    Why should you get taxed per km when you're already paying tax on your petrol.

    They really should make a distinction where it only applies to cars that are solely electric powered.

    Bit of a short-sighted, poorly executed policy.

  • No 1 - Courts rule on legislation -its their job to interpret it. They don't rule on documents or speeches by ministers .
    You have to find an issue in the legislation. Courts can then look at the documents to see what the Ministers wanted to do, but a Court cannot cancel the legislation (unless it flouts the Constitution).

    No 2 - In regards to money, this is a tracing issue. Courts have already ruled that taxes can be put into general revenue and then spent however the Gov. likes.

    No 3 - Most roads are paid by Local councils.

    • Would this include incorrect and misleading information presented publicly on their website?, and I assume the same incorrect/ misleading information that was presented when submitting the bill for approval?

      About the ZLEV road-user charge

      Australian drivers pay Commonwealth fuel excise when they purchase petrol, LPG and diesel. This funds the development and maintenance of Australian roads. The fuel excise is currently charged at 42.3 cents/L for petrol and diesel, and 13.8 cents/L for LPG. For every 60L tank of petrol vehicle owners contribute $25.38 fuel excise to the road network."

      and

      "From 1 July 2021, a new user-pays charge will be introduced for Victorian-registered ZLEVs. ZLEV registered operators pay little or no fuel excise because these vehicles are primarily powered by electric or alternative fuel sources. The ZLEV road-user charge means that all road users will pay their fair share."

      https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fe...

      Complete misrepresentation - A PHEV has a fuel tank like everyone else and "pays their fair share"… What is the "fair share" for that matter mister premier? Does it include what pollies pay in their Chauffeur driven vehicles?

      • Would this include incorrect and misleading information presented publicly on their website?, and I assume the same incorrect/ misleading information that was presented when submitting the bill for approval?

        It's irrelevant. What does the legislation say? Most legislation has a period of comment by everyone, and in the Courts mind it should flesh out any issues.
        Even if its bad legislation, the court cannot cancel the legislation (except if its unconstitutional), it can only interpret what it says.

        This funds the development and maintenance of Australian roads.

        Additionally since its going to general revenue, it does not matter the specific reasons. Courts will not trace the money, and cases have already been decided on this principal.

        • Is it constitutional for Victoria to cash in on people driving on other state roads?

          • @tunzafun001: They don’t care. The numbers are small enough not to make any difference.

            Besides, it’s swings and roundabouts. For every km you drive elsewhere, there’s probably cars from other states getting a free ride.

            • @Euphemistic: That can't be right. Otherwise the same level of thinking in reverse would be I get a tax free ride as Twiggy Forester has paid enough.

              Also, Who is 'they' (don't care)? Federal government?

              Definitely a form of discrimination.

              P.S. I appreciate your feedback.

          • @tunzafun001: Fuel excise is a federal charge that is levied on petrol products.

            Registration and driver’s licence fees are levied on a state basis (and is usually decided on where the vehicle is housed).

            If they are levying it via Registration, then they can charge you for it.

            It does not matter if Vic Roads/State Gov is using the lack of Federal Government collection of revenue as a reason. The Courts do not decide on the reasons - they decide on the meaning of the legislation. Unless its mentioned in the legislation the court won't consider it.

            You could challenge it based on the fact your vehicle might not be considered a ZLEV under the legislation if you believe the legislation does not accurately describe your vehicle (though if you ever got an advantage, such as decreased rego fees based on the fact your vehicle was a ZLEV it would be hard to argue this, if they used the same definition in both pieces of legislation).

            • @IHatePeople: I think the ZLEV definition could be challenged, cheers. As for the registration reduction. It equates to 5000km per year, with the average user driving 13500km per year. So no rebate for the average driver.

  • I think you should probably buy a hybrid.

    Our previous car was an Outlander PHEV until someone wrote it off a few months ago. When we had the car, we hardly ever plugged it in. Since it was written off, we have bought a RAV4 Hybrid.

    Whilst I'm fine with a distance tax on EVs, the tax on PHEVs does seem unfair given that you would pay for the EV distance, and then fuel excise. So a PHEV is only really worth it if you will mainly be driving it in EV mode, so you should probably sell it.

    Cheers

  • Have you worked out how much extra you'll be paying? It may not amount to as much as you think.

    I agree it sucks as, and given the world is wrestling with climate change philosophically its highly enraging. But I don't think Labor or Dan Andrews believe in crippling the transition to electric vehicles, so I can only assume this was part of some deal. A sacrifice, in service of some greater goal. All politicians (the ones that succeed, anyway) have to get their hands dirty in order to get the things they value through. Making a deal with the devil, in other words.

    I can only hope what he got in return for that piece of Victoria's soul was worth it

    • Well my 880km drive tomorrow will cost $99.79 in fuel (which isn't great paying regional fuel prices as it is), then $17.60 for uncle Dan's electric car hating tax.

      As for the second part. The funding "should" go to EV charging infrastructure. But there is no plan to install a single J1772 plug that my car uses. I shouldn't be paying this crap.

      • Then it’s time to go bigger than a forum. Start or join a lobby group

        • That's what I'm here for. No idea with this stuff. I'm a bit Daryl Kerigan looking at this thinking its not right..it's the vibe..

          How would one find/ start a lobby group?

  • +1

    PHEV owners doing country km in the are really being made to lick the smelly end of the poo stick with this stupid tax.

    Even as an EV owner in the city I am pissed off, I had to pay extra for the car ( GST, stamp duty ), I pay GST on the electricity which ICE owners dont when I use mains power rather than Solar ( unavoidable in winter melbourne).

    I feel good about paying taxes, but I would feel just as good paying 1/2 the amount :)

    What is truely odd is the lie that somehow fuel excise a state tax and which is used for state road building, and EV owners are escaping it. Whereas it is a canberra tax, which feeds the general tax bucket since 1956. Its no more targeted for roads building as it is for pay pensions, "build" submarines, or $7m to house a family in Christmas island detention.

    • "What is truely odd is the lie that somehow fuel excise a state tax and which is used for state road building."

      Yeah, this is one of the key bits that I think can't be right. There must have been evidence for the tax to be passed, and if that was falsified…

      As for the the next lie created that EV's are perpetual motion machines that run off air…

      Here is some basic Maths

      Running my PHEV off electricity

      Right now (its winter, batteries lose range when cold - plus you may want to run a heater for 5 mins or ya missus will kill you. This will do around 30km if lucky in metro areas at crawling speeds @ an average electricity price of 36c / kwh. The trip will use 11kwh in consumption x 0.36c/kwh. = $3.96 (this goes into the same bucket as excise).

      Running my PHEV off petrol

      For the same trip .3 x 8L/100 km = 2.4L of petrol at $1.20 / litre = $2.88. Metro for fair comparison. Country fuel is more, but still currently CHEAPER than electricity.

      Tell me again uncle Dan how an EV driver paying $3.96 vs a petrol driver paying $2.88 "is not paying there fair share". Plus paid a premium to buy it, plus has an uber expensive degrading battery to factor into average running costs. Plus doing there bit for the environment!

      Then the mongrels have the audacity to charge me an extra 2c per km regardless of fuel type I use!! It is nothing short of disgusting ignorance.

      *Thought I should put an edit here as some will say "it's not winter forever, and eventually you can use solar for 'Free'.

      Reality 1 - To charge 11kwh battery will require around 12kwh of solar electricity (rounded) due to efficiency losses. If I wasn't charing the car, I would be getting 12 x 0.17 feed in = $2.04. So the base minimum cost of solar is $2.04 (NOT FREE).

      Reality 2 - Solar panels are not free, and neither is the charging infrastructure. Both depreciate, this has a cost.

      Reality 3 - Most people are at work when the sun is shining. So there will always be a cost. Maybe offset with some solar charging, but reality is very little (but again even 100% still has a cost not far off petrol).

      Reality 4- Not much sun in Victoria over winter!

      Reality 5 - But you can use a solar battery!! I have a solar battery (again a cost), but run the numbers on the cost vs Lithium Cycles (in Australian conditions - not the 25C the tests are performed in), and you will see a break even will occur for most at around 10 years, and this is also the end of the lithiums effective life. The average battery will support a house only, there is NOTHING LEFT FOR A CAR!

      Reality 5 - This is the final KICKER…the world as we know it is going down the toilet. These 'boiling frog' muppet politicians couldn't give 2/5th of a shite. Need to do something.

  • Well here's the real reason

    Mr Hibbins said the tax was designed to boost the value of VicRoads’ licencing and registration arm, which the Andrews government has signalled it may partly privatise. By potentially using the division as the body to collect the tax revenue, the government could attract a higher price when it sells the asset, he argued.

  • It's Day 1 of EV tax people

    One final fight before having to pay for EV tax, submit your odometer just before midnight so at least today you won't be taxed.

    When the new Outlander 2021 comes out, I will be getting the petrol version. I am planning to just pay the tax only once or at most twice (only because my rego isn't due on June 30) but in total for 365 days would be no more than $200. Considering you also get $100 rego discount, the real cost is $100 but that's still $200 more than last year in my living cost (I use this car to go to work - 52kms each day) PLUS still paying for petrol coz my car only nowadays does 38kms max.

    Come next election, I hope you all will support me in voting this Andrews Government out and have this repealed.

  • I still haven't found a single data point how that quantifies there costs base of road travel.

    For example, they say ZLEVs don't pay their "fare share".

    What is a "fare share". How much do they think we pay? Ie EV mode (= electricity cost + GST).

    Without quantification it seems like the equivalent of charging GST ..what percentage?? A fare amount!!

    Can't be legally binding without quantification can it?

    • That is a lie and they know it. What they are doing is "frog in the pot" strategy. Socialize km based road charge first until we get comfortable (or the rage dissipates due to going through 7 steps of grief before coming to terms) before going big and mainstream.

    • ** fair share

      • Sorry, was in a hurry…Plenty more wrong with that paragraph ;) The English language is broken anyway. A fair share could be something a pale person pays! Technically a fair share of a road fare. Anyway, the point being there is no data/ numbers/ quantification to back any of this tax up, because it doesn't add up. Petrol is actually cheaper than electricity at times (from a pure financial perspective). When you factor in the environment and public health. The cost of petrol on the community is far higher. So petrol excise should be higher. But as I said all along. A PHEV pays both, so the tax is totally invalid.

  • I agree that the tax is particularly unfair for PHEV owners who can only run in EV mode for a very small percentage of their drive yet have to pay the tax on their total drive which will be largely (already taxed) petrol powered.
    As the politicians have put their ignorance into legislation there is probably not much you can do with a legal challenge. The best thing you can do is to write to all the politicians who voted for it and demonstrate how they got it wrong and plead with them to correct the injustice. The ACCC may be a bit hamstrung. The media might be interested in it ..they like anything to show that the Government got it wrong.

  • Spent the day contacting as many pollies and media outlets as I can with some actual numbers, imagine actually looking at some numbers before voting on something so significant… Hopefully others do the same.

    Here are a couple of good links for others to look at even if you don't currently own an EV. You will one day:

    https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-great-ev-rip-off-austral...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvY7CD56eQ

  • If a politician deliberately misguides the parliament to enforce a hidden agenda…is it Fraud?

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