Will You Buy a House to Live in or Invest, if The Housing Market Crashes 25%?

Sorry fellas, yet another housing market related post. Given the recent discussion about housing affordability and what the Government should do to reduce housing prices, I thought it would be interesting to understand who will get benefitted from a housing market crash, and who will be doomed.

Data source

Here are my initial thoughts and some points to consider with a question at the end. Imagine a 25% housing crash

Owner-Occupiers with no mortgage - 36.7% of the properties have no mortgage. However, their asset suddenly drops by 25%, even if they have no immediate plan for selling. How would they feel that their asset portfolio of, say 1000k, is now worth 750k, after a lifelong of savings.

Owner-Occupierss with mortgage - 29.5% of the properties. Many of them will lose all or most their equity, and would face a hard time in refinancing. Selling may not be an option, as the bank will take their loan amount and all they lose is their deposit and principal payments they made over the years.

Prospective owner- This is where I find it most interesting. Say, after this 25% crash, you can now afford the property you planned for. You have the deposit and necessary income to afford the loan. Will you buy after this 25% crash? Or, will you hesitate, fearing further crash? How will you feel, if you buy after 25% crash, and in the next few years, the market crashes further 25%. Will you feel happy for the new prospective owners who can now afford the property for their living despite your house loosing it’s 25% of the value (leaving you in negative equity)?

Will you buy a house to live in or invest, if the housing market crashes 25% in near future?

Poll Options expired

  • 38
    I will immediately by a home to live in after a 25% crash
  • 48
    I will immediately by a home to Invest after a 25% crash
  • 5
    I will wait and see before I by a home to live in after a 25% crash
  • 5
    I will wait and see before I by a home to Invest after a 25% crash
  • 4
    I want the market to crash before I buy and would like it to grow after I made my purchase.

Comments

  • +55

    There will not be a 25% crash…

    • -1

      Just a hypothetical question for all these people wanting a housing crash

      • +7

        Again a really bias poll .

        • +7

          With lots of errors:
          "…I will immediately by a home…"

          • @GG57: Haha, copy-pasting propagated the error. Thanks.

      • look at the Townsville market it crashes buy 100,000+ per house unless you need to sell no need to care. if have a sell or bank want you too sell that problem.

    • +9

      Totally agree 95% chance of 25% up before 25% down .

      • I agree, if the uncertainty of a global pandemic does not bring it down 25%, I don't know what will…

        However, given the enthusiasm I have read in other posts/comments about bringing housing price down, I am just wondering who will be benefitted from a crash.

        • +1

          who will be benefitted from a crash

          All the people who need housing?? or am I missing something??

    • +2

      Hybroid is absolutely right if.

      It doesnt drop
      If it goes up
      If it Crashes 24%
      If it Crashes 26%

      They have played the odds well.

      • +2

        And this is the attitude of the investors that have seen the ridiculous gains in Sydney and Melbourne and think they're
        1. Sustainable
        2. Going to go on forever.

        At the end of the day house prices will track wage growth. If it overcooks itself it'll just lie dormant until it resets.
        I for one don't think it'll crash, however the price growth will stagnate and probably start to go backwards relative to inflation.
        Much like Perth.

        A house is only worth as much as the next guy is willing to pay for it.

        • +2

          At the end of the day house prices will track wage growth.

          Yeah nah, house price to income ratio metric is no longer used because there is no wage growth

          • @TEER3X: Which is why when we see behaviour like this we call it a bubble because it's no longer tracking like it used to

        • "At the end of the day house prices will track wage growth"

          Not quite my friend

          Wage growth is merely one measure of affordability.
          Rising or falling cost of living is another (inflation)
          Tight or loose credit growth policy (availability of credit)
          And property friendly tax policy is even more important
          Interest rates is probably the most important measure of affordability…..

          Every property boom in the past has been the result of falling interest rates.
          NOT wage growth

          What has been plainly obvious during this boom is that rising property prices have been wholly and solely due to ultra-low interest rates.

          Yes you are correct in suggesting there had been no underpinning rise in incomes whether wages or rents

          So when inflation takes a grip (and it slowly is around the world) and the Central banks around the world (inc AU) will be forced to raise interest rates to contain inflation. then……..

    • +3

      You mean plenty of people would be buying ahead of OP if the market goes down. Lots of people playing hypotheticals here.

      If it goes down by 24% would OP buy? Sometimes it isn't about timing the market.

      I suspect for a lot of people crash of 25% they'd still want to pay $1m for a property, just a better one. People will spend all they can on mortgage payments. As we know money burns a hole in people's pockets.

      • Yep

        Some people would jump in if they fell 5%, others at 10%. More if it got to 15%
        So plenty of demand underpinning property prices at present

        HOWEVER!

        All depends on what causes the crash!

        Too many here are assuming the "status quo"

        And that will NOT be the case if property prices start falling

        It means everyone is trying to sell and few people are buying

        It would be for good reason

        So the mindset here would change completely under such severe circumstances.

        Could be interest rates have shot up so much to make property totally unaffordable
        Could be a severe depression putting everyone here out of a job
        Could be a much more severe variant of COVID-19 creating a lot of uncertainly
        Could be the Chinese forced to sell out causing a panic in the property market with no bottom in sight
        Could be something much worse

        Property would become the worst investment ever!

        Remember a property crash doesn't just happen for no reason

        How many here would be buying under these dire circumstances I have listed?
        I can tell you now. NONE OF YOU !
        You would be sitting on the fence waiting for an improvement in the circumstances that caused the crash

        • Isn't it what happened with COVID?

          Everyone sat on the side lines until RBA stepped in and government made banks give mortgage holidays.

          You miss the point which is at what point does bail outs start.

          It is really easy to point fingers say none of YOU. It doesn't matter about us, it is much more about you.

    • +3

      Same people said that prior to the sub-prime mortgage crisis in America.

      And yet just look at Perth Post 2015…

      Western Australian's have seen a 25% drop and still won't jump straight into the property market like some of the crazed lunatics over east.

      Just shows the difference between the positive feedback loop that is growing equity in a property (solely based on low interest rates and hyped up demand) and using that to buy another property that's more expensive. You break the loop and all of a sudden the fuel goes from the fire and people have to start paying for houses the old fashioned way by saving and working for it.

      • Australia has the same problem as the ECB. Geographic and growth issues. If you drop the interest rates for WA then East Coast will boom too much. Look at what is happening right now.

    • The results of this survey show a great interest in property investment and so there wont be a crash

  • +12

    If there is to be a "25% crash" it wouldn't be just be a housing crash problem… these event don't occur in isolation, there are 2nd and 3rd order effects. e.g. people are out of work, therefore a 25% crash people still can't buy, unless they are already cashed up, etc…

    It's an oversimplified scenario…

    • +3

      C'mon its Ozbargain, home of commonsense polls and questions, like "Bro's, recommend me a dog ….."

      BTW getting in before all the "Pollies, Boomers, Bums, Investors, Rich, Poor have …" comments

    • I understand it is oversimplified, I thought it would be a huge can of worm to open those reasons for crash in my original post.

      • +2

        The point is a poll is useless if it doesnt properly define things.

        BTW you are handling our ridicule extremely well 👍. Probably thinking - now what did I do.. or why me. 😀

        • +2

          Well, I deserved those corrections :)

          Not my best day, mate.

          • @webtonmoy: All good :)

            Open to feedback is the way to learn. It helps reduce our own blind spots.

      • The difficultly with observing the market is, identifying the signal to take action, when noise is abundant.

    • Didn't they say 30% crash with COVID19 and the government stepped in to save the banks pretending to be saving all the mortgage holders.

      Property market is not too big to fail. Just like the stock market.

    • +1

      25% crash in Perth didn't result in that.

      People just knew the housing market was unsustainable and backed out.

  • +3

    25% Crash in Australia. LMAO

  • +3

    talk about just pulling a number from where the sun doesn't shine,,, why wouldn't you say 50% if you are making up a number… far more dramatic.

    • +1

      I did mention 50% in two steps of 25% :)

      • +3

        25% then another 25%, only makes it 43.75%. Lmao.

        • +1

          haha, thanks for correcting me. 43.75% is dramatic enough, I think :)

          • +2

            @webtonmoy: mate, math and spelling not your strong point,

        • +2

          SF3 you are truly in form today .. 👍

  • +1

    Interesting hypothetical, IMO I don't think a crash of that magnitude would happen, largely because much of government funding comes from duties from housing, as well as taxes through construction. On top of this, a major decrease in price allows for new buyers which helps prop it back up again, with current renters becoming prospective buyers.

    I do think a lot of owners without mortgage may do alright though, as I don't really see rental going down more then it already has with covid unless things get a lot worse.

    I guess the issue being with a 25% crash to happen, there must be so much other problems going on at the same time so it makes the question hard. As someone who wants to buy a house I'd obviously love it if the prices dropped that far, but owners of course wouldn't.

    Though one thing where I think differs, if you own to live then you may be more okay for a crash because end of the day you're buying a home and extra cash for what you want may be worth the risk. If you're buying for investment then you really care more of the bottom dollar based on growth and rental.

    • My thoughts tell me that a crash will not make most people happy. Some people can survive better than others, but that's about survival and not happiness…

  • -1

    None of the shit options in the poll

    • The Rich…
    • Being rich is a bit subjective though…

      • +1

        Now you are learning.

  • +6

    still waiting for the 50% crash from the GFC

    • Melbourne Median price during GFC is $380K. 50% crash = $190K .
      4 Bedroom house for $190k ? hell yes I will buy that !

  • +3

    I'll buy my daughter a house so she doesn't have to post about house prices on ozbargain in the future.

  • +4

    Nothing will happen… the exact same situation occurred last year when covid and lockdowns started….

    House:
    Supply will literally vanish and you wont see much listings.

    Apartments:
    Lot of sales due to over leveraged investors and if there is no rental income then they will be forced to sell. The apartment prices still haven't even recovered from last years drop.

    • Apartments

      The new builds aren't selling because it depends on suckers from overseas or property investment courses (if you can't have gathering it is pretty hard to pressure sell over Zoom).

      Existing stock isn't selling because nobody wants to drop their asking prices.

      Rental prices have dropped by 20% - 30% but people are holding on with the hope borders reopen.

      • If an apartment of say 450/week rent is reduced to 300/week rent, the rental income loss per year is about 7800, after tax loss is probably around 5300. So it is beneficial to hold the apartment at loss, instead of selling it at loss of more than 5300 after an year.

      • The big ones aren't really suckers and they don't care that much about a short term drop, they just want somewhere to hoard their cash away from the government in a relatively stable, long term environment that is heavily diversified. Australian property makes up a chunk of that.

        Imagine you're a Chinese billionaire with fears the government might take all your cash away one day, the one thing you want to do is diversify and build a portfolio to spread the risk. Sure, the Australian housing market could crash, so could the Argentinian stock exchange, banks in the Caymans could get raided, but not all of them at once. And if you have to flee China on short notice and liquidate it fairly quickly the Australian property market is a good one for that, 60 day terms, get your house turned into cash.

        • Imagine you're a Chinese billionaire with fears the government might take all your cash away one day

          Good point. But you also want items that could be liquidated (quickly into cash) and you could take with you (or wire transfer) at a moment's notice.

          The time it takes to sell property is probably not a very good hiding place especially if you can lift it and shift it.

  • +1

    no one benefits from a a crash..especially if it sustained for a long period.,

    • My thoughts exactly.

    • A sustained crash brings down the cost of housing (relative to everything else), something that is particularly high in Australia… that hurts some of those already invested in property, but benefits those wanting to enter the market, even if prices stay low forever more.

  • Buy*

    • I submitted the corrections, but I think a moderator has to approve it.

  • +2

    In my view:
    For those with house with no mortgage: No impact at all. The fact the price fell is only relevant when it comes to selling. So, if someone was thinking of downsizing or using the money for retirement - they can still sell and buy as the downsized property would also be 25% cheaper. Although, the cash in hand will be 25% less as well and that could cause stress for many. I think many will hold on and wait till prices rise again.

    For those with mortgage: Again, if no plan to sell immediately and they can hold onto the property; no reason to panic and sell. Their mortgage repayments are the same; their rental income is the same - so their annual cost is still the same irrespective of the value of the house. Only becomes a factor when they want to sell. If they are comfortably able to manage the repayments, again hold on till the market recovers.

    It is only those people who are over-leveraged and suddenly the rental market drops that start to struggle - as seen in the apartment market over the last year.

    • +1

      For those with house with no mortgage: No impact at all. The fact the price fell is only relevant when it comes to selling

      wrong, it will have an affect on the overall economy, not just the immediate selling price, thus affecting everyone, from job losses, economic downturn, shares, investment portfolios, price of goods and many more things

      • I thought we were talking hypothetical housing crash only. Obviously, in real life if prices were to crash; there would be a trigger action and there would be other effects in the overall economy.

        If looking at overall economy perspective - a house with no mortgage - that person is likely to just hold on as their house expenses are really low; so even if they lost their job - they may be able to survive through it. A person with a mortgage - they will run into financial stress if they lost their job as they may not be able to make repayments - so will have to sell.

        • +1

          How can you hypotheticise and housing crash only?

          Its like saying hey we are now giving everyone a discount of 25%. As everyone will still have the money to buy, then guess what more want to buy and push prices back up.

          If it drops 25% its going to be a market crash of major proportions affecting all businesses and people.

          So it would be pointless to even consider something so theoretical its not going to happen.

  • +2

    Unless you are in a specific area that is supported by a specific industry, i highly doubt the long term trend will be negative. One example that comes to mind is Perth - if they didnt have money from mining activities they would be doomed.

    For Melbourne, i think its unlikely to see long term negative growth. It may go backwards, but it will bounce back relatively quickly, and i can guarantee if it started to go backwards you'd be making comments like 'nah i want it to drop more before i buy', then it will go back up and you'll want to cry.

    Unless you are looking to buy a negatively geared investment property, there arent many bad times to buy in a city that has a relatively robust economy.

    But dont over leverage yourself..

  • I don't know if i'm missing something here?

    Owners with no mortgage - 36.7% +
    Owners with mortgage - 29.5%

    = 66.2%

    What other status can you be in other than either having a mortgage or not?

    • Made changes, hope it clarifies. The other percentages are renters.

  • +1

    Unless everyone's gunning for the exit, I don't think it will ever tank that hard.

    Even if the shittiest scenario happens, I don't think it will get to 25% drop…people with liquidity (and swallowed a brave pill or 3) will start going into the market and provide some support by snapping things up at decent discount.

  • Taxes on real estate are too high. I would rather put $250k (the deposit) on assets that don't have any taxes.

    • You mean the Nigerian son of the ex governor of the Nigerian reserve bank who has stumbled upon US$5m of gold some how forgotten and need $250k to pay bribes to get out.

      Only you are smart enough to attract the big fish.

      • I don't discriminate. I don't care if your skin color is white, black, brown, yellow, red, green, blue, or grey. I'll trade the asset as long as it fits my asymmetrical risk profile and isn't illegal, prohibited, or regulated.

  • How is it going to crash?

    You need an excess of sellers to make it crash and if prices go down too much no one will want to sell. Right now finance is cheap with record low interest rates.

    Maybe if interest rates get up over 15% like the good old days and the bank comes after all the defaulters. Then there won’t be as many buyers either as they won’t want to borrow. But then investor will snap up stock keeping prices up.

    • I am very concerned about the argument with interest rate.

      Say, someone has a 900K loan for their owner-occupier property. At current 1.8% rate, their P&I monthly payment is 3,238/month.
      At 5%, their payment will be 4,832/month, at 15%, it will be 11,380/month.

      If we reverse the calculation, to pay 3238/month, at 5% rate, the loan needs to be 603K, about 33% fall.
      To pay 3238/month, at 15% rate, the loan needs to be 256K, about 72% drop.

      Bottomline is, unless property price drops significantly, future owners will pay much more each month if interest rate rises even 2-3%.

  • +1

    These questions are always stupid because the answer depends on why it crashed. If there's no reason for it to crash then it won't crash.

  • Owner-Occupiers with no mortgage

    A "true" OO in this scenario won't care. By that, I'm defining them as someone who has bought their place with a view to living in it effectively indefinitely and are not seeing it as a step up to something else. If they are looking to step up and have no mortgage, then they will effectively be in the "Prospective owner" group.

    Owner-Occupiers with mortgage

    This is an extraordinarily broad group, ranging from those with maybe 10% equity today, to those with perhaps 90%+ equity and who may be years in advance on their repayments. The real challenge for this group is not so much equity (although it is important), but the ability to keep managing the loan.

    Prospective owner

    You have to consider what is known, vs. what is expected. In your scenario, "prices are down" 25% … all else being equal, this will bring more buyers into the market. But, those buyers will only come into the market if (1) they expect no further material price falls, and (2) they have confidence in their ability to service the loan. If there is an expectation that prices fall by another 25%, then buyers will not certainly flood the market.

    • precise opinion. :)

  • +1

    The biggest flaw here is that your hypothetical doesn’t factor in the basic supply and demand principle. As the price drops more buyers enter the market and the price faces a resistance floor. Imagine the price of BMW crashes and everybody was buying M3 for $20k. Eventually the M3 stock would run out and what is left will be fought for by almost everyone in society who can now afford it, driving the price back up.

    • +1

      Yes, housing market is more complex than to be described as a simple poll/post.

    • I think it does factor in the Laws of Economic, when the hypothesis is that there will be more houses than people, perhaps a certain portion of population decided to partake in a coerced experiment that has no long term longevity data. No job, no house for others. Other threats will be regulatory access to money, if the great-reset-happens, and government-corporation partnerships to buy up everything a 0% interest. It is just hypothetical scenario.

      • +1

        There aren't any laws in economics, mostly assumptions.

        It's not science.

  • +2

    These property threads feel like a non-owner support group, just to console each other.

    If you look at other countries like New Zealand, China Tier 1 cities, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Canada or New York, Sydney actually looks cheap relative to them.

    • If you look at other countries like New Zealand, China Tier 1 cities, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Canada or New York, Sydney actually looks cheap relative to them.

      Didn't realise China Tier 1 cities, Hong Kong, New York and Sydney are countries in their own right. Sydney maybe because ScoMO is PM of Sydney, forget there is a big country to run.

      I'd suggest that China Tier 1 cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou), Hong Kong, Singapore and New York has something going for them (commercial / financial centres). NZ due to every billionaires wants to be there (if when the world ends). Explains why Sydney is cheap. Nothing going on there.

    • Remind me, what’s the population density (persons per square km) of China tier 1 cities, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore and New York, vs good-old-nowhere-else-matters Sydney?

  • +1

    why stop at 25%, go 99%

    • Sure. Will you buys if there is a 99% drop in price and risk loosing your 1% value?

  • if The Housing Market Crashes 25%?

    a 25% crash will take prices back to pre covid levels……. So not a huge 'crash' as such!

    But being it on!

  • It may or may not fall 25% in nominal terms but it absolutely will fall 25% in real terms.

    Long lasting and higher than average inflation is part of the current economic phase.

  • +1

    If the property market crashes 25%, there’ll be a large percentage of those who are saying they’ll buy, that won’t be in a position to buy…..

  • Since we are talking hypotheticals here…

    I will sell my house just before the crash and then buy a new house just after the crash and I will win the real estate wars.

  • I will buy two to invest and hold for future knock down rebuild for my kids. That way my kids will never have to whine about boomers holding all the properties.

  • All the bears already had the crash that they wanted, it just came and went and didn't look like the hysteria that you all thought it would look like.

    Case in point: Sydney / Melbourne from the highs of 2017 > 2020 where it picked up again.. somewhere around 10-15% retrace on AVERAGE in our main 2 capital cities… some parts of town obviously only went down 5-10% whereas others might have dropped 15-20%

    The correction and the "crash" that was prophesied / predicted / begged and wished for by the perpetual property bears has already come and gone (and nobody cares).

    If you were waiting for your "crash" and you didn't take advantage between 2019 and 2020 (with the assumption that your incomes were not affected by Covid job losses), then realistically you weren't really going to buy a property anyway and you're just wasting everybody's time with thinking/pretending that you were going to buy something if/when the property market goes down.

    For the younger folks who literally couldn't have a deposit ready until 2021 due to savings / age, my heart goes out to you and it's a depressing time to try and enter the property market for the first time. Some people luck out in a way that when they are ready to purchase their first property naturally with their age between 25-30 that it happens to be an excellent time to purchase with not too much heat, other people even just a couple of years later are trying to buy in a heated/overcooked market through no fault of their own, just unlucky timing.

  • -1

    Economists have predicted a crash (correction) is imminent for decades. It will never happen in Oz like it did in the US as real estate makes up far too much of an individual's wealth, it plays a major part in retirement and pension allocation and our banking system is based on real estate lending NOT business / entrepreneurial lending.

    The Clth govt will always implement fiscal measures to ensure it won't crash heavily. It literally is too big to fail unlike other OECD nations that have more national wealth invested in their equity markets.

    Australian real estate proportionally to our land mass is the biggest Ponzi scheme in human history and unfortunately the govt has all the policy levers to keep it going.

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