Superannuation - Do Any Funds Advise The Number of Units Members Hold?

• 

  deme on 12/11/2021 - 16:58

  +3

  TL;DR so I'll guess what you are asking.

  Welcome to OzHostPlus, we do the googling so you don't have to.

  Did you know we have live chat?

  Have you tried our members portal it may the details you are looking at as opposed to the mobile app.

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 12:48

    Alas not everything can be explained in a dozen words - perhaps if it is too long for your attention span, just don't worry about replying - I appreciate 99.9% of help but did you really think either of those given the subject area would assist?

    And the core of what I'm asking is for member of OTHER funds to clarify if THEY state the number of units held - as I can't very well ascertain that myself as I'm only a member of HP. :-)

    • 

      deme on 13/11/2021 - 15:05

      did you really think either of those given the subject area would assist?

      Hostplus will openly state your 'balance' value and the value of any investments held i.e you might hold several different investment options with a different $$$ in each. And you can go back and historically view what the unit prices were on a given date.

      However and I find this very odd……they do not show the number/quantity of units in any given

      Do I expect the Hostplus members area and/or live chat to answer this? Of course I do. Do you not?

      Step 1. Go to live chat
      Step 2. Hey, how do I find how many units of each investment I have?
      Step 3. If they say shrug, file a complaint asking them wtf.

      And the core of what I'm asking is for member of OTHER funds to clarify if THEY state the number of units held - as I can't very well ascertain that myself as I'm only a member of HP.

      You wrote a wall of text to ask if non-hostplus supers provide the number of units? That's a single sentence.

      • 

        Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 15:57

        +1

        @deme

        Do I expect the Hostplus members area and/or live chat to answer this? Of course I do. Do you not?

        Funny so did I - but after having me on hold for 15mins+ they advised they had no idea and would have to get an 'expert' to contact me - still awaiting that. So there's that.

        You wrote a wall of text to ask if non-hostplus supers provide the number of units? That's a single sentence.

        Your point being what? 'Wall of text' perhaps if you're on a phone but again you're acting like I've put folks through some hardship by simply trying to explain properly what I was asking.

        And to be fair the vast majority of folks I'm certain have no idea THAT super funds calculate all holdings via units - so you'll hopefully have to forgive me writing those couple of extra sentences to explain this rather than assuming everyone knew exactly what I was asking.

• 

  FreshPrinceofKP on 12/11/2021 - 17:58

  +1

  I don't know the answer to your question sorry, but I am in Financial Planning and have seen many times "Advisers" use this as a basis… e.g. 'Client is better off in x fund because of transparency and is willing to pay more for that'. Which means we can move you out of Industry fund into a wrap YAY, so much advise give me moar! The reporting of a Wrap is better but largeley one thing you can control is the fees.

  I am actually in hostplus and never thought about this question.

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 12:57

    @FreshPrinceofKP , cheers for the reply - used to have a Wrap with BT but was sick of being fisted by their fees - that said this was in the 'good old days' where they'd hide all kinds of trailing commissions etc and then have the nerve to charge extra fees on top etc.

    Whilst I agree with what you're saying in terms of paying extra for essentially a more complex product offering (and complexity can be in a number of ways) I don't think that simply stating the number of units held is some 'pay extra for this info/premium' feature add.

    As mentioned, they already use this as a fundamental basis for valuing all members accounts - I know it's a given for you but I'll state for other reading - all investments they offer have a unit price, members have a certain number of unit they hold and therefore a balance at any given point. But they only give the latter………even though it's at best an estimate at the time - but they 100% know the number of units you hold but don't disclose.

    Has to be a reason as it's simple info that'd cost them nothing to disclose.

    Glad to find another HP member, they are a genuinely great fund - but as has been shown in the financial services industry (something I am sure you're aware of) moving to greater transperancy on whats happening with member's funds is and should be a continuing trend.

    It's kind of alarming how little info we're given on our super and yet on any number of other much less valuable assets the Average Joe knows everything pertinent about them.

    • 

      mrtin on 13/11/2021 - 23:46

      Transparency is extremely poor in many popular funds. It is very hard for a professional to find all the fees payable, let alone an average person. Think about investment fees, mer, icr, then explicit fees, implicit fees, property borrowing costs. Then fees paid by all members for advice, but only 1% of members utilise the service (fee for no service??), indirect fees to political parties via a "membership". It goes on. Australians are being blindsided by these guys who know the law inside out and have the political pull to get things their way.

• 

  Hithere on 12/11/2021 - 18:00

  Anyone have any ideas on why they might do this?

  None at all.

  You'll just have to wait until they get back to you, or ask them again.

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 13:39

    It does appear that way - as mentioned also wondering if members of other funds i.e you perhaps - know if your fund does - at present it seems atleast AMP does - which is just good info to know so I can ascertain from HP why they do not feel members should be aware of this…..if and when they reply to me (they're incredibly slow at replying).

• 

  Seraphin7 on 12/11/2021 - 19:12

  +1

  And is anyone aware of a Super fund that does openly show members how many 'units' of any given investment they have within their balance?

  All of the ones that I am personally aware of.

  I will say that many super funds are trying to further "dumb down" the information shown to members and my bet is there is nothing more nefarious going on than some "focus group" came up with the insight that "members don't really understand units and unit prices … just show them the value of their investment".

  While I'm not a member of HostPlus and therefore can't speak for them specifically, I would be very surprised if this information wasn't readily provided even if it might be a couple of clicks away from the "balance screen".

  • 

    bobbified on 12/11/2021 - 21:25

    +1

    Do you work in Super too? I've noticed that you seem to know a lot about this and other Super topics! haha

    • 

      Seraphin7 on 13/11/2021 - 10:56

      You got me!

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 13:06

    @Seraphin7 , Sorry don't understand your reply - you say 'all of the ones I am personally aware of' but what do you mean by this? I assume you've answered incorrectly and in fact mean you are not aware of any that show this. If you infact did mean every fund you know of DOES show the units held - can you name a few so I can reference them please.

    FWIW I do tend to agree with you - atleast in part - that they felt they needed to 'dumb down' for Average Joe - that said I do feel there's other factors at play. As if you only know the 'estimated' value (as they can only several business days later be 100% certain of what your asset allocation was worth as it's literally made up of many assets held with different managers etc) and you can ONLY find this out from them - then how can you verify anything?

    I'm 99% certain they're not doing anything dodgy but I lost confidence in financial organisations a while back - so I think that the more clarity for all parties the better.

    Please rest assured that I have a tad of knowledge in this area and if the unit balance was just a few clicks away - I might have just accessed it rather than popping up this thread, don't you think? :-)

    • 

      Seraphin7 on 13/11/2021 - 14:30

      you say 'all of the ones I am personally aware of' but what do you mean by this?

      I work in superannuation so come in contact with a lot of funds … not every fund, but a lot. All of the ones I know of, including the ones my company issues, will clearly demonstrate the unitholding, the unit price, and therefore the value of your investment. Some may not show this information directly "on the front page" of their website, but you will be able to get it with little drama.

      As if you only know the 'estimated' value (as they can only several business days later be 100% certain of what your asset allocation was worth as it's literally made up of many assets held with different managers etc) and you can ONLY find this out from them - then how can you verify anything?

      There's a lot going on with this statement.

      No matter which fund you are talking about, the value of your account will only ever be an "estimated value" because if you are holding managed funds (where the majority of superannuation is held), these funds are only priced once a day. The price "as at" the close of market on any given day will only be published late the following business day, or in some cases some business days later. Even if you own equities directly (or any other "live priced asset), any concept of "current value" is arguably distorted as the "current price" in fact reflect the last sold price, not necessarily what you can sell it for. Even then, many superannuation funds where you can hold direct equities will do trade batching so you may not be getting the live price in the same way as you would through an actual stockbroker.

      In terms of your asset allocation, it depends upon what you mean precisely. If you are talking about (in a simplified portfolio) whether you hold two assets 50/50 or whether you hold them 51/49, it makes precious little difference in practical terms. If you're trying to rebalance your portfolio at that level of precision, you are likely giving away more in transaction costs than you could possibly be making by maintaining "the perfect portfolio" at all times. Even if you are at 51/49 and want to be at 50/50, there is every possibility that within a day of being at the perfect 50/50, you'll be back at 51/49 anyway.

      If you are talking about asset allocation within these managed funds you might hold, you're never going to get that information in real time in any event. For an active fund manager, this asset allocation is the core intellectual property of the business and what they trade on in an attempt to generate alpha returns. Information on asset allocations at this level are usually 90 days out of date by the time they are published.

      In terms of you can only get this information from them, what do you mean? Who else would you expect to get it from other than the people you are administering your superannuation? If you are really that concerned there are ways to track this information independently, but you will practically need a degree in applied finance to do this with even a decent level of precision. That said, the level of regulation, compliance, and audit that goes around this stuff is immense. Yes, mistakes happen and when they do massive effort is expended to correct them, but these are actually quite rare and even then quite small errors.

      Please rest assured that I have a tad of knowledge in this area and if the unit balance was just a few clicks away - I might have just accessed it rather than popping up this thread, don't you think? :-)

      As I said, I can't speak for HostPlus specifically and therefore can't comment on what they are doing. But, perhaps with that tad of knowledge, the correct avenue of investigation would be with HostPlus in the first instance who are really the only people who matter when it comes to either providing a satisfactory response or otherwise.

      I'm 99% certain they're not doing anything dodgy but I lost confidence in financial organisations a while back - so I think that the more clarity for all parties the better.

      That might then be difficult for you to find any superannuation operator, including the fund managers with whom they invest, the banks they hold deposits with, and the stockbrokers they use to trade equities with who will satisfy you.

      • 

        Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 16:21

        @Seraphin7 , thanks for your reply.

        All of the ones I know of, including the ones my company issues, will clearly demonstrate the unitholding, the unit price, and therefore the value of your investment. Some may not show this information directly "on the front page" of their website, but you will be able to get it with little drama.

        Ok - are you talking about they disclose this to the members or rather than it's given on some 'advisor' level (enhanced) access only? And again can you advise a few of the most notable fund manager who do this so I can reference them to HP when I speak?

        There's a lot going on with this statement.

        I do appreciate that you went into significant detail and effort in order to explain the complexities pertaining to getting a unit price from a super manager - that said I'd respectfully point out this has never been my concern - I understand and acknowledge that it might take multiple trading days to know what a unit of any investment option is bought/sold for . So you gave great info but this is an area I understand and am not seeking clarification in.

        In terms of you can only get this information from them, what do you mean? Who else would you expect to get it from other than the people you are administering your superannuation?

        My point, following on from the previous - was to state that knowing the unit price & even value isn't so important IF you actually have any kind of an idea how many unit you hold. Perhaps I'm just not explaining it well - and perhaps a lot of that is because you're telling me this unit holding info IS VERY COMMON for most funds - alas for mine it is not.

        Therefore I have no idea about unit holding, nor really the unit price - just the balance. And I can ONLY get the 2 aforementioned details from the organisation who has the most to gain from any 'inconsistencies' - so as I said before it's hardly a very transparent and open relationship when such info is held back.

        I mean with all due respect it's my money, but they won't even tell me how many units I have? On what basis - thats absurd.

        The reason this piqued my attention is that I asked HP about whether as they state their investments have NO buy/sell spread and also no fees for changing investments. I asked them, 'So if I moved my entire $600k+ super from Option A to Option B, I'd not lose a single cent in my end balance?' They COULD NOT answer me and there were some very awkward put me on hold and talk to their supervisor chats for prolonged periods.

        SO it occurred to me - how would I actually have any idea IF such a change had resulted in costs being incurred by me? And honestly I can't see how I would - but if I knew the unit balance, that'd be easily checkable - ideally it'd be shown in a transaction report or similar but HP do nothing like this at all.

        That might then be difficult for you to find any superannuation operator, including the fund managers with whom they invest, the banks they hold deposits with, and the stockbrokers they use to trade equities with who will satisfy you

        Thats kind of a bizarre thing to say. You imply I'm asking for something unreasonable - which is actually completely at odds with your own statement. As you trumpeted that you work in the industry and everyone you know does show this info easily and readily. This thread was placed by me to seek that info - that being IS it common in the industry to show this or am I asking for unreasonable things. So thats a tick on that by your own admission.

        And yet you're saying I can't find anyone to satisfy me? Sorry but you've missed the point and I THINK gotten hung up on the thought that I wanted to know the actual value of the unit - which again, was never the case…. :-)

• 

  Transient on 12/11/2021 - 19:45

  +1

  I'm with AMP super (as selected by employer). Investment details for the previous day show: Investment option, unit price, # of units, value and unit price effective date. App doesn't show this detail. Perhaps it depends on the software used by the superfund - whether it can display such detail.

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 13:10

    +1

    @Transient , thank you - thats good to know - number of units held is shown by AMP - thats exactly the type of info I was after.

    You may be right, HP have been stating for a while that they're updating their members portal - again though it's a very basic bit of info - as it's 100% known by them - the unit price/value and therefore balance is either estimated or only shown retrospectively but they manage to show this.

    Thanks again as this is handy to know and cite to them - as HP is a pretty big player and so it's reasonable to ask why they don't have.

• 

  tsunamisurfer on 12/11/2021 - 19:52

  Are you talking about your half yearly or annual statement or your balances after logging in online?

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 13:13

    Both actually - HP never shows a unit balance - they will show what of their specific options you're in (lets just say indexed Intl shares), the % of your overall balance thats in that option and then a sub-total and grand total. Thats it - if you trawl through their members portal you can for any given date get the historical unit pricing for most of the investment options.

    But thats it. Again if this was a broker and you'd bought any number of financial products this would be incredibly sub-standard even at the most entry level app level several yrs ago - and super balances are a lot more than most folks would have in a pocket trading app.

• 

  bobbified on 12/11/2021 - 21:22

  And is anyone aware of a Super fund that does openly show members how many 'units' of any given investment they have within their balance?

  They all do. All your transactions are calculated in "units". Have you got online access? The transaction history should show your 'units' and 'unit price' on the transaction date otherwise the dollar amounts don't add up.

  • 

    Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 13:20

    @bobbified , with all due respect no they don't and I'd find it incredibly insightful if you could explain how you know that EVERY single Super Fund in Australia openly shows how many 'units' its members hold at any given point?

    I'm only with HP but I can assure you they don't. So there's one to get you started.

    Do I have access online? :-/ Yes. Now that we have that cleared up.

    No mate - the transaction history doesn't show units or have any reference to it - let me be clear, the ONLY reference that HP makes to units is that it allows you to retrospectively go back and see what the unit pricing was on a given day - literally thats it.

    • 

      bobbified on 13/11/2021 - 15:45

      Care to upload a copy of your Annual Member statement (with your details redacted, of course)? I'd be very surprised if the units don't show on the statements.

      I also don't believe that there is nowhere on their member website that shows you how many units you hold for each investment option. I'm almost certain it's a compliance requirement.

      • 

        Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 16:27

        @bobbified,

        So you're essentially saying I'm either an idiot, a liar, doing this thread for fun (which ties in with the previous 2) or a combo of all of them.

        Honestly why the hell would I do that? If it helps you - please feel free to assume I'm lying - I know the number of units, and this is just how I pass my time.

        I mean this with all due respect but thats really insulting and do you apply the same burden of proof on any thread you choose to reply to? i.e someone asks about their car, you need photos of the car and their ownership papers.

        I can only give you my word that the info isn't there nor anywhere on their site - THATS funnily why I'm wondering if it's commonly shown by others and if folks have any theory why a super manager would not want to disclose this.

        • 

          bobbified on 14/11/2021 - 06:04

          @Daniel Plainview: I'm not sure why you're being so defensive.

          THATS funnily why I'm wondering if it's commonly shown by others

          I've worked this industry for the last 20 years and, on multiple occasions, managed the design and process to create these statements and online websites for the largest administrators (they cover a stack of super funds). And when I'm not managing it, I was working very closely with those who are. Showing the unit holdings is a fundamental thing that helps the members make investment decisions and something we would never and have ever considered removing - so I would be very surprised if they did that.

• 

  Daniel Plainview on 13/11/2021 - 19:13

  Sorted - much thanks to all - got a reply and clarification. :-)