Please Help Me Decide Which High School Is Better Academically?

mrvaluepack on 05/01/2022 - 20:53

As I never went to high school in Australia, I'm trying to understand the VCE results and decide which non-selective government high school in VIC is better based purely on their VCE academic result for 2021 below? I have not included other factors such as facilities and extra co-curricular activities into the comparison.

School 1:
Scores of 40+ (%) = 17
Median VCE = 33
10.5% of students achieved an ATAR of 95+
29% of students achieved an ATAR of 90+
49% of students achieved an ATAR of 80+

School 2:
Scores of 40+ (%) = 13
Median VCE = 32
19% of students achieved an ATAR of 95+
32% of students achieved an ATAR of 90+
59% of students achieved an ATAR of 80+

Any help understanding the data above would be appreciated, thanks.

Education & Work

Comments

  • cloudy on 05/01/2022 - 21:01
    +5

    Sounds like School 1 is better at getting most students to a pretty (high) average.

    School 2 seems like they are better at getting those who are capable to achieve their potential and happy to focus on the higher achievers and leave the underperformers just to do whatever.

    Thats how i read those stats, I'm probably wrong though.

    • mrvaluepack on 05/01/2022 - 21:22

      Hmmm interesting read, however the percentage of 80+ scores seems to contradict it.

      My interpretation is because of the VCE scaling factor, School 1 had more students in "easier" down scaled subjects compared to School 2.

  • jjjaar on 05/01/2022 - 21:03
    +4

    It’s probably worth noting that a lot of schools politely ask their students to leave if it won’t help them maintain high standards. Including some non-selective government schools.

    Pick whichever school your child feels more comfortable. That is where they will thrive.

    • mrvaluepack on 05/01/2022 - 21:18

      It’s probably worth noting that a lot of schools politely ask their students to leave if it won’t help them maintain high standards.

      Source? This is the first I've heard about this.

      • jjjaar on 05/01/2022 - 21:26
        +5

        My partner is a teacher and has worked for many schools over the years. Also all of his colleagues in the industry.

        Not all do this. Just some. Usually those that are seen as the elite schools. Others might encourage the student to doing VCE unscored so it’s not captured in the stats. Though this is usually a good outcome for the student as the pressure is too much for them anyway.

        But what you really want is a school where your child wants to be. And if that involves them transferring part way through, let them.

      • morse on 05/01/2022 - 21:54
        +1

        Yep, this is true for some private and selective schools. Some are even ‘paid off’ to leave with offers like free tutoring if they complete their studies as an independent student. This is usually just the bottoms 10% or so who don’t have learning difficulties etc.

      • Muzeeb on 05/01/2022 - 22:41

        This was happening in the 80s and 90s when I was at school. Well known amongst many private schools in the Kew area.

        I would be surprised if it wasn't happening today.

      • Kramo on 05/01/2022 - 22:56

        Happened at my school late 00s and still happening today.

        Some will say it's encouraging students to consider alternative pathways that may suit them better than University, but yeah, definitely helps the average.

        • Nucleus Acumbens on 29/12/2022 - 14:46

          TSS in Qld warmly encourages children it believes to be underperforming in the academic arena, to steer their involvement towards the Air/Navy/Army cadet program.

          Terrace in Qld knew a student from a very good home (no socio economic or cultural problems) was continually absent and knew that his father did his homework and assignments. The child was always in trouble and up to mischief.

          The school told the parent that they would continue to enrol the child at the school as long as the father continued to submit his assessments and the child never attended the physical school or any of its extra curriculars for his year 11 & 12 years.

          The assignments were weighted so that the curriculum content could be passed without doing exams but if the child (or father) chose to engage with the curriculum, they could do so on line and exams would be made available accordingly

      • Benoffie on 06/01/2022 - 00:18
        +1

        Teacher. Common practice. In SA there are entire non mainstream school systems set up to get non ATAR and non performing students out to prevent drag on the main system. Nothing new.

        To the OP - ATAR outcomes are irrelevant. If your child is entering senior years, you need to go and interview the staff and ask questions like:

        • what additional tuition services are offered including holidays
        • what academic supports are in place
        • what supports do they have for disability/learning difficulties/giftedness if applicable (and they need to provide examples)
        • what type of teaching pedagogy (style) do they implement in classrooms? Socratic or more free form project based?
        • what are the homework and assessment policies?
        • can you see examples of task sheets?
        • what online learning systems do they use? Etc etc
  • SmiTTy on 05/01/2022 - 21:16
    +1

    Why does school 2 percentages add up to more than 100?

    • mrvaluepack on 05/01/2022 - 21:20

      It doesn't matter. The percentages are suppose to reduce the higher the ATAR.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 05/01/2022 - 21:26
      +6

      19% of students achieved an ATAR of 95+
      32% of students achieved an ATAR of 90+
      59% of students achieved an ATAR of 80+

      Why does school 2 percentages add up to more than 100?

      Because students in the the top line are included in the next 2 lines, students in the second line are included in the bottom line also. This is because students with an ATAR of 95+, also have an ATAR of 90+, and an ATAR of 80+.
      Hope this helps to explain,

      • SmiTTy on 05/01/2022 - 21:27
        +2

        Oh yes or course. Obviously I wouldn't qualify for those higher atar scores!!!

  • pharkurnell on 05/01/2022 - 21:22
    +10

    You could send your kid to any school in the country and they can blitz or bomb…
    $30,000 - 150,000 a year school doesnt guarantee good results…

    also depends on the kid.

    • afoveht on 05/01/2022 - 21:39
      +3

      Doesn't guarantee, but statistically there's a better chance they will blitz, plus there are other perks (connections, extra curricular activities, etc).

  • mtr on 05/01/2022 - 21:26
    +6

    Hey, as a parent I understand you're trying to make the best decision for your kid/s, but "trying to…decide which non-selective government high school in VIC is better based purely on their VCE academic result for 2021" is a little bit silly.

    To answer your question in the spirit it was asked, either school would be near the very top of average academic performance for non-selective govt schools in VIC (but I imagine you already know that).

    However, I would encourage you to consider these other aspects when choosing a school:
    1. What is the trend of the school's performance? Is it improving over time?
    2. What subjects / clubs are offered at the school throughout years 7 - 12? Involve your children in this conversation.
    3. What is the culture of the school like? Is it the right fit?

    The final point I'd make is that a high school cannot be "better academically". High schools do not learn, children do. And the core concern of every school is to accelerate the learning of their students. The final %s and scores are largely a function of the wealth / attitudes of the parents and not the teaching or culture within the school.

    If you would like some more context, happy for you to PM me and I can be more specific about the two schools you've listed and any others in the area (unless I'm way off about which 2 schools these are, but I don't think so).

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 02:20
      1. What is the trend of the school's performance? Is it improving over time?

      About the same but 2020 and 2021 caused declines, so not sure if its just an abnormally or a start of a new trend.

      1. What subjects / clubs are offered at the school throughout years 7 - 12? Involve your children in this conversation.

      Usually all of them are similar with schools around my area.

      1. What is the culture of the school like? Is it the right fit?

      Schools are not running tours anymore due to COVID, therefore can't really see what its like out there>.

      The final %s and scores are largely a function of the wealth / attitudes of the parents and not the teaching or culture within the school.

      I disagree with this one. COVID really showed which schools adapted effectively and which schools didn't really know what to do. My kid's school only had 30 min. daily WebEx classes, while I heard from other parents that other schools were having full on 6 hour online classes and video tutorials.

      • mtr on 06/01/2022 - 08:52
        +1

        Schools are not running tours anymore due to COVID, therefore can't really see what its like out there.

        Yes, that's why speaking to people who can give you some insight is so valuable.

        I disagree with this one. COVID really showed which schools adapted effectively and which schools didn't really know what to do. My kid's school only had 30 min. daily WebEx classes, while I heard from other parents that other schools were having full on 6 hour online classes and video tutorials.

        Which approach do you believe is better? Why? Think about yourself as a learner. Would you be ok doing 6 hours of professional learning in front of a screen each day for weeks on end? The schools that adapted were precisely the ones that didn't try to imitate in-person teaching online.

        In the case of Year 12 students in particular (which is what you're looking at in terms of results) success is largely due to work they do outside of the classroom.

        • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 12:22

          Yes, that's why speaking to people who can give you some insight is so valuable.

          Too small a sample size and biased opinions depending on their circumstance.

          Which approach do you believe is better? Why? Think about yourself as a learner. Would you be ok doing 6 hours of professional learning in front of a screen each day for weeks on end?

          100% more time online teaching. Im still scratching my head how they could justify full time wages for teachers with those 30 min online classes. Honestly, almost every parent at my kids school were complaining to one another behind the schools back and some even comtemplated not participating in the annual thank you gift.

          • mtr on 06/01/2022 - 13:41

            @mrvaluepack: I see you decided to ignore my question :)

            Can I please, please encourage you to try to connect with a teacher and have an open conversation about what they do. At this stage you seem to be confusing it with babysitting.

            Your comments in this thread are honestly pretty worrying in terms of how you're viewing education. Signalling to your kids that all you care about are VCE stats is a great way to create rebellious or highly anxious children, or both.

            • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 14:17
              -4

              @mtr: Which question? I believe that if you are paid to educate a child for ~8 hours a day, you should perform those responsibilities. The teachers actually dread lockdown being over because they cant have their mid afternoon walks and 2 hour lunches anymore. It was the biggest handball ever to parents and those who had both parents working from home really struggled. You sound like a teacher because you seem to think that childrens education can be condensed into a 30 minute session.

              • IceCreamBandit on 06/01/2022 - 14:57
                +4

                @mrvaluepack:

                I believe that if you are paid to educate a child for ~8 hours a day, you should perform those responsibilities.

                The teachers actually dread lockdown being over because they cant have their mid afternoon walks and 2 hour lunches anymore.

                You sound like a teacher because you seem to think that childrens education can be condensed into a 30 minute session.

                100% more time online teaching. Im still scratching my head how they could justify full time wages for teachers with those 30 min online classes.

                Do you think those 30 minute lessons take 0 time to prepare for, and 0 time to give feedback on? Do you think teachers just turn on Zoom and talk for 30 minutes, send a few magically self generated worksheets via Google Classroom then go for their mid afternoon walk and 2 hour lunches and ignore questions from students? Do you think students react well to being talked at for 60 minutes, and they will just absorb all knowledge without completing any tasks indepedently?

                For transparency, I am a NSW teacher who has over 10 years' experience in most settings (public/private, co-ed/single sex, comprehensive/academically selective), and I will gladly admit an absolute minority of my colleagues are guilty of taking longer lunches and doing the minimal amount required, but so many of my colleagues (in my current and surrounding schools) have worked harder than ever in the Term 3-4 remote learning environment in NSW.

                So many of us were completely burned out and it was not possible to take sick leave even when we were bed-ridden because we were expected to still plan and set out lessons and taking leave would have compounded our workload when we returned anyway.

                Our Zoom lessons may have been only 30 minutes out of a 60 minute period so they have time to engage with what was presented and actually complete the work, but this is a list of what we did for the rest of that time.

                • Give detailed feedback on work
                • Respond to student enquiries about the assigned work during the remaining 30 minutes
                • Set up future work (collating materials to be presented, setting up work to be distributed, recording materials for so students have differentiated resources rather than generic pages from a textbook)
                • Contacting parents via phone/email, especially when so many students struggled mentally in the circumstances and needed further contact and support
                • Provide wellbeing support to students.
                • Work to meet continuously changing guidelines. An example was in Term 4, when our return to school date was repeatedly brought forward, ignoring the initial plan that was set out by the government with the intention to provide certainty. Assessments re-written or adapted to the online/on-site environments
                • Support less technologically experienced colleague to try and provide a consistent delivery of lessons across classes/year groups.
                • Attend meetings/interviews with staff and or parents for whatever reason.
                • For schools that proceeded with a full reporting schedule, mark assessments then write feedback and report comments
                • Look after our own family members who were at home, whether that was children who had their own struggles with online learning, or ill family members.

                Is that summary enough to explain how we performed our responsibilities? If we taught the full duration of lessons just so just it was 'more' online learning, when do you propose the above is done?

                • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 16:25

                  @IceCreamBandit: FYI, my observations were for primary school kids (same experience across 10 children spread among year 1-6 in the same school as discussed with their parents), so it might have been different with secondary schools. Anyway see responses below:

                  Do you think those 30 minute lessons take 0 time to prepare for, and 0 time to give feedback on?

                  Looking at the materials provided each day, I would say 45 minutes tops each week for the entire weekly teaching material.

                  Do you think students react well to being talked at for 60 minutes, and they will just absorb all knowledge without completing any tasks indepedently?

                  No, but it would have been better to have them there online to answer questions from children to simulate an actual class instead of just signing off after 30 minutes.

                  Give detailed feedback on work.

                  95% of the work required was just done on Mathletics and Reading Eggs. Feedback only provided at end of term.

                  Respond to student enquiries about the assigned work during the remaining 30 minutes

                  Only 5-10 minutes allotted time for Q&A each day. Any further questions to be posted on Microsoft Teams class chat group or send email.

                  Set up future work

                  Already covered above.

                  Contacting parents via phone/email, especially when so many students struggled mentally in the circumstances and needed further contact and support. Provide wellbeing support to students.

                  Yes, this was done. Only when requested, not everyday or week or month.10 minute session max.

                  Work to meet continuously changing guidelines.

                  Every person in the world had to do that.

                  Support less technologically experienced colleague to try and provide a consistent delivery of lessons across classes/year groups.

                  This shouldn't really be the responsibility of the teacher. School admin should have sorted this training out.

                  I also constantly hear from my kids that they actually spend more time watching Youtube (Dude Perfect), Bluey and movies at school than at home.

                  I heard from a friend that in their private school, they had actual daily 4-6 hour virtual classes where everyone including the teacher actually stayed online on WebEx for the full 4-6 hour session. They might have only taught for 2 hours, and the other 4 hours the teacher was doing their own admin work but was always available online to ask for help.

                  • IceCreamBandit on 06/01/2022 - 16:53
                    +2

                    @mrvaluepack:

                    FYI, my observations were for primary school kids (same experience with 10 children spread among year 1-6 in the same school as discussed with their parents)

                    That is fair, however, please understand that your comment like how teachers don't deserve their full time wages was a little offensive.

                    Looking at the materials provided each day, I would say 45 minutes tops each week for the entire weekly teaching material.

                    I would assume that you do not have anyone in your social group who is a teacher then. Perhaps you could join us and show us your ways if you think it is so easy.

                    No, but it would have been better to have them there online to answer questions from children to simulate an actual class instead of just signing off after 30 minutes.

                    Sure, different perspectives and experiences so who's to say what's happening in every school in Australia. If you are concerned, feel free to address it with your school. It is very important that schools collaborate with the wider community to achieve its goal (educating students), if there are shared concerns within your social group, do something about it.

                    Contacting parents via phone/email, especially when so many students struggled mentally in the circumstances and needed further contact and support. Provide wellbeing support to students.

                    Yes, this was done. Only when requested, not everyday or week or month.10 minute session max.

                    Per student? Being in a secondary setting, I would have been responsible for ~180 students last year. Obviously different to the primary setting (and I'm not suggesting they have a lower workload due to a lower number of students that they are responsible for), but I would still suggest that you are underestimating the time required, especially as teachers have to document all communications with families, and some issues required further escalation with counsellors, police etc.

                    Support less technologically experienced colleague to try and provide a consistent delivery of lessons across classes/year groups.

                    This shouldn't really be the responsibility of the teacher. School admin should have sorted this training out.

                    School admin? Not sure of the situation in Victoria, but in NSW admin look after attendance, enrolments, first aid, finances, reception, print room, student learning support and other roles. Upskilling is done by teaching staff to share expertise.

                    I also constantly hear from my kids that they actually spend more time watching Youtube (Dude Perfect), Bluey and movies at school than at home.

                    Maybe this is something you need to bring up with your school as there appears to be a genuine problem, or it might be worth considering that you have only heard one side of the story, and you are taking that to be the whole truth. In my experience, children have the ability to be creative and exaggerate things.

                    Anyway, looking at your response, it seems like you are dissatisfied with your child's schooling experiences so far and as a result have negative view of the teaching profession, so I hope you are able to find the right school to get your child.

                    P.S. I understand the pressures on a parent to get the 'right' school, so could I please suggest the following
                    - Check out any annual reports (might be under a different name in VIC) that schools publish and look beyond just the ATAR. In NSW, public schools are required to publish one annually as the name suggests and they cover a wide variety of topics.
                    - With COVID, most schools would have created online versions of orientation/presentation/other important days. Check out their social media accounts to get a feel for what the school is like!
                    - Try and join a P&C meeting. With COVID, many would have moved online to Zoom/Teams. If you contact the schools and ask nicely, they should be able to share links or ways to join these meetings to get a feeling for the school.

              • mtr on 06/01/2022 - 15:19
                +3

                @mrvaluepack: The question of whether you, as an employee, would like to be subjected to 6 hours of Zoom professional learning every day for weeks on end (and thinking about how much you would pay attention in that setting). Or would you, you know, maybe ask for shorter Zoom calls and more time to work through the material yourself?

                Again, your comments clearly show you have a toxic opinion about teachers and schools more broadly. IceCreamBandit below has done you the kindness of detailing some of the work involved in a teacher's day. I am sure you will not take any heed, unfortunately.

                I hope your kids have a good experience in whichever school they attend and hopefully are able to sufficiently ignore your narrow perspective of what education is in order to flourish.

              • Nucleus Acumbens on 29/12/2022 - 14:55

                @mrvaluepack:

                1. Children cannot concentrate for 6 hours a day, even with extensive practising and conditioning.

                2. I doubt that most children could concentrate for 30 minutes a day.

                3. By high school, the majority of them struggle to concentrate and focus for 50 minutes in a row in one class.

                4. School teachers aren't paid to educate a child for 8 hours a day. Most school days are at best 6 hours.

                5. How would you know if teachers dread lockdown being over?

  • avoidfullprice on 05/01/2022 - 22:51

    I supposed more students of school 2 performed better than cohorts in school 1 over two disruptive years (year 11 and year 12) with remote learning.

    I think using this stat to choose which school to attend is silly. That just adding unnecessary stress on the kid to achieve a higher atar.

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 02:05
      -2

      Let me ask you this - if you had a choice to send your kid to Dandenong High School or Balwyn HS, which would you choose?

      • Muzeeb on 06/01/2022 - 07:31

        If you lived outside of the Balwyn zone you wouldn't have a choice

      • avoidfullprice on 06/01/2022 - 10:32
        +1

        Well I'd look at what extracurricular activities/sports the kids do, and does either school provide them, and what facilities the school provide. I'd also consult my kids on their views, like my parents did with me.

        oh wait you and I have different criteria. You are sending your kids to school like choosing a superfund based on past performance and not on what you're investing.

        At the end of the day ATAR isnt everything, and using past student performance as your selection criteria under different climate is frankly silly. I stand by that.

        • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 12:24

          Not based on past performance but based on statistics.

  • JesseN9 on 06/01/2022 - 00:25

    There's not much you can do if your child suffers from anything like dyslexia or learning issues. No matter how much you spend it won't help and private schools don't always equal better results or even better teachers.

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 02:07
      -3

      Yes I understand that but as afoveht has mentioned, all I can do is increase the statistical probability that my child will do better when they are in the company of generally smarter people.

      • Third_Gear on 06/01/2022 - 07:31
        +4

        OR they will do worst because they feel like their parents are constantly trying to push them in front of “smarter” people. This could have a negative effect by making the child consistently feel inferior or constantly trying to catch up to everyone else.

        Ask your kid what THEY want to do…

      • avoidfullprice on 06/01/2022 - 10:40

        This is an example of confirmation bias. Pick one comment to support your view, and using statistics without looking at other factors (demographics, learning environment, after school tuition).

        Let me ask you this - do you often justify your decision based on the statistical performance of your high school?

        Understand you are trying to make a better choice for your kid, but your metric is a bit ill informed here. Have a read of what other people are saying here.

        • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 12:27

          Why do you think people pay top dollar for private schools? Its for quality of teaching and better facilities. Also so that their kids can mingle and make friends with smart ones and build networks with better off members of society.

          • IceCreamBandit on 06/01/2022 - 14:30

            @mrvaluepack:

            Why do you think people pay top dollar for private schools?

            1) Because parents believe paying massive amounts per year = guaranteed success in education, in the academic or personal development sense.
            2) The parents went through the private system and benefitted from the favouritism of being from xxx school in workplaces and other situations and want their child to experience the same.

            Its for quality of teaching and better facilities.

            Quality of teaching isn't guaranteed, though private schools have the funds to pay for exponentially more admin staff, which reduces load on teaching staff and possibly giving them more time to prepare lessons etc.

            Better facilities are to be expected, as private schools need to justify school fees from parents and governments and make use of it somewhere. Easily done by building another hall/swimming pool/gym/cricket pitch with stands.

            Also so that their kids can mingle and make friends with smart ones and build networks with better off members of society.

            The only thing I agree with here is that the child has a better chance to network with the financial and social 'elite'. Again, useful for future opportunities in workplaces etc, but it does not guarantee in any way that your child comes out of the private school system a 'smart' or good person.

            I know others have said this, but it is worth noting again that going to a perceived 'superior' school (in any system, selective/comprehensive, co-ed/single sex) does not guarantee success. It is up to the child (influenced by the upbringing the child experienced) to make the most of the experiences/resources available to them.

            • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 16:31

              @IceCreamBandit: Yes, I agree it doesn't guarantee success and its up to the individual child but I want to be able to do whatever is in my control to improve their chances at succeeding in life and giving them more options in life (higher ATAR).

          • tallkid123 on 06/01/2022 - 19:16
            +1

            @mrvaluepack: As I attended an elite private school myself, I will agree that they will have better quality of teaching and facilities on average than any Australian public school.

            As for your second sentence, I will mostly disagree. Private school kids have a certain background (white, rich) and if your child is not in both categories, any connections so to speak will usually end after graduation. I personally lived in a boarding house with rich Asian international students. As soon as high school ended, they usually all disappeared overseas.

            I will mention however that throughout my time at university, a lot of the local Asian students knew each other through high school tutoring. Naturally, that bolstered their ATARs and landed them all in the same university faculties with high ATAR cutoffs. So tutoring is probably one of the strongest ways for your kid to befriend other smart students and forge those connections that everyone harps on about.

      • Nucleus Acumbens on 29/12/2022 - 15:14

        Money doesn't make people smarter. It can make it seem like they are though Sure, it can buy more or better private tutors and it can buy access to after school tutoring companies and programs and there is even a chance that if the parents are wealthy, perhaps they have some kind of academic knowledge that they can use to help their kids with their work. It can even buy Nannie's/tutors who sit with your child and supervise and guide their homework.

        I had 5 kids in 3 different schools because each was suited to a different school and the way the curriculum was delivered.

        They All had IQ,s over 135 - 155 (so academically gifted) but only the three middle ones went to the school that specifically catered for the gifted learner.

        Three of them were grade advanced in their respective schools and all five of them attended classes (and passed) classes at Universities while they were still at school so at the end of the day, they all got automatic University entrance into the course they wanted regardless of their ATAR score (3 x OP 1, 2 x OP 2 and 1 x OP 4.)

        One started math at uni when he was 14 and still in school and had finished 2 years of an engineering degree by the time he graduated from school at not quite 16. Most of the others didn't start uni till they were 15 or 16.

        And Horrors! Of the 5, only three stayed at uni! One joined the AirForce pilot program another one (the one with the highest IQ is a waiter - couldn't leave school behind fast enough and she loved her school and she chose it.

  • netjock on 06/01/2022 - 08:26

    Statistics don't mean anything.

    Even in a really bad school there is a few kids that do well.

    All schools teach same material and pay the teachers the same crappy wage. Only difference is usually the number of disruptive kids (in class and bullying). Only reason why there is many high achievers is parents willingness to invest (time and money) into their education.

    • leiiv on 06/01/2022 - 10:31

      So would you rather be the brightest kid in a below average school, or the dumbest kid in a ultra top school?

      • avoidfullprice on 06/01/2022 - 10:41

        Depends on the amount and type of bully occurs.

      • netjock on 06/01/2022 - 11:54

        Why does it really matter? What you are talking about is relative.

        If you get 95 ATAR and you are brightest kid in a below average school. You think you're so good.

        When you get 95 ATAR and whether there is 10% or 19% people with higher scores than you are doesn't matter. You just don't have such a big ego.

        On the whole it doesn't matter because 95 ATAR will only allow you into a course you meet the pre-requisites, therefore at uni you're only as good as your class mates unless it is someone who got 99 ATAR and really loves to do a course that you need 95 to get into.

        I got 75 ATAR but ended up graduating in a course that requires 90 - 95 ATAR to get into. Got distinction average. Complete a part time MBA from global top 10 university with distinction average. Worked for top 25 ASX listed companies which aren't even global top 100. But then I moved onto working for global Top 100 companies.

        Given my example maybe being average in a good school is better than good at a below average school provided you have the will to try to persistently get better. Unfortunately most people seem to just give up these days because it is more easy.

      • tallkid123 on 06/01/2022 - 12:04

        My wife was dux of a below average public school. She literally never went to class, chilled at home during year 12 and nobody ever questioned her if she just felt like walking out the school gates.

        Still got above 99 so she fulfilled her end of the deal. But these people however are the extreme minority. If she had attended selective, she would've been just fine but not special enough to just ditch class whenever she felt like it.

        • netjock on 06/01/2022 - 12:27

          I knew someone like that. A guy. So unless your wife is a guy then we're not talking about the same person. People who don't need to study and still get 99 exist but rare.

          • tallkid123 on 06/01/2022 - 16:51

            @netjock: My wife studied. She just did it on her own away from all the dropkicks she was forced to be in a classroom with.

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 12:15

      Tell that to an actuary or ABS.

      • netjock on 06/01/2022 - 12:26
        +1

        actuary

        You know nobody listens to these guys except life insurance companies because you can be pretty sure death can't be falsified.

        ABS

        We know those statistics are defined by criteria that isn't right. Not their fault but you make an assumption they are correct. No.

  • tallkid123 on 06/01/2022 - 12:10

    These statistics are meaningless?

    At the end of the day, it's going to come down to the child's assigned teachers, cohort, subject selections and ultimately their performance to determine their ATAR. Then you have to also consider your child's adaptation to the school's social environment - poor, rich, diverse, non-diverse etc.

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 12:16
      -2

      Stats are everything. Goverment policies, budgets and science is based on stats.

      • TooSerious2 on 06/01/2022 - 13:59
        +2

        And in that one post, an unhappy if high-achieving high school experience lies. It's down to the kid finding what they love to do and people who can help them. These people might be teachers or online but they must include you.
        Source: Clueless dad of ATAR 99 student in 2020

      • tallkid123 on 06/01/2022 - 19:04
        +1

        You're only assessing schools though. Not macroeconomic policy or performing scientific analysis.

        You sound like the most miserable parent to deal with. The type that teachers quit their careers over. It doesn't matter how much you try to quantify school performance. If your kid doesn't fit in and feels miserable, just watch as they come home crying and their academic performance declines. And please don't tell me you're going to reassure them by presenting them with statistical analysis that persuaded you to put them in that environment in the first place…

        Just wait until you micromanage your kid's university course preferences. You're exactly the type of person who thinks whatever percentages and rankings the university comes up with applies directly to your child's career prospects. Guess what? It doesn't.

      • Nucleus Acumbens on 29/12/2022 - 15:35

        Something like 76% of statistics are made up (I even just made that one up)

        The general public should not have access to school leagues tables because they don't give a true indication of the school and most parents don't know how to read them, understand them or interpret them and end up making critical misinformed judgements

  • ajsr8 on 06/01/2022 - 18:16
    +2

    Both schools look to be good statistically.

    School 2 would have the slight edge because they have a greater percentage of the cohort getting a higher ATAR.

    Could argue that school 2 had more kids doing harder subjects that scaled higher which is why the % over a 40 study score and the median study score is lower than school 1. So a kid might get 38 in specialist maths and this would scale to say 47. However, they only count the raw score which is 38 even though the 47 would go towards the calculation of their ATAR. A kid in school 1 might do further maths and get a 40 as their raw score and this could scale to 39. Saw the raw score is counted in the stats and the scaled score is put towards the ATAR.

    You should also look at the results for the prior years, as well as the culture of the schools.

    Ultimately depends on the kid.

    • mrvaluepack on 06/01/2022 - 18:57

      Thanks, exactly my thinking as well.

  • lainey13 on 06/01/2022 - 20:18
    +2

    Another thing to take into account is the number of students. Consider that the larger the body, the more subjects are offered, and that smaller numbers can be skewed with a small number of high achievers and not consistent over the years.

  • [Deactivated] on 18/01/2022 - 11:05

    School 2 for me, only going off those stats. Looks like they choose more challenging subjects and still do well hence the higher average yet lower % of scores above 40.

  • mrvaluepack on 27/12/2022 - 06:51

    Similar results this year but higher discrepancy between VCE Scores of 40+ (%).

    To also make matters more confusing, i also noticed in the newsletter that the dux in School 1 achieved perfect scores of 99.95 vs the dux in school 2 of only 99.75.

    Does this mean greater disparity and inequality of smarter students in School 1? Lol, like the real world?

    • Euphemistic on 27/12/2022 - 13:55

      Results of one kid out of a school mean very little, except to perhaps he orients of that one kid and the publicity arm of the school.

  • Nucleus Acumbens on 29/12/2022 - 14:33
    -1

    From experience, it doesn't matter how academic a school is if it is not suited to your child and your child doesn't like it.

    It does not matter what facilities the school has or what programs it offers. It doesn't even matter if your child has a reading age of 15 when they're 6, an IQ of at least 140 confirmed on the WHIISK, S&B & SOi.

    It doesn't matter if you think it is the perfect school. It doesn't matter how many opportunities or advantages the school offers.you cannot force your child to engage with any of this if they don't want to.

    The perfect school for an individual child really only comes down to three things
    1. Does the child in question like the school?
    2. Does the school reflect the values and beliefs and ideals of the family?
    3. Will the school, teachers, parents and child all work together towards a common goal?

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