Can a Letting Agency Dispute My Bond after RBO Released It?

arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:07
Last edited 29/03/2022 - 11:08

Hi guys,

Long story short, I was renting a place in Sydney with a regular contract and bond deposited under the RBO scheme.

After the end of my lease my agent came back with a nasty check-out report. I was able to dispute most of the problems straight away with email references.

The agent disappeared for a few days, so I decided to to trigger the bond release request to RBO.

After a couple of day from the request, the agent reappeared with a $450 cleaning fee invoice claiming the cleaning was unavoidable.

I showed the agent a few quotes from online bond-guarantee cleaning services in the range of 300-350 asking for a reduction.

After a few iterations, as days passed, finally we crossed the 14 days threshold and RBO released my bond in full

The agent is now claiming that if I don't proceed with paying the requested amount, they will apply to tribunal and put the trial cost on top of the cleaning fee they originally claimed.

My questions:

1) Can the agent make any claim now that 14 days have passed, the bond has been released and they didn't dispute the release of the bond?
2) What would be the expected cost of a trial?
3) Since I'm currently overseas and I don't plan to come back until August, can I avoid being physically present in the trial or nominate a third party?

I don't really feel like giving up. It's not a matter of money, it is the trite fact of being scammed by a dumb shark that I don't really tolerate. And besides, they did not offer any bargaining or mediation. Hence, apart from the trial cost I don't really have nothing additional to loose.

thanks,

Financial

Comments

  • oscargamer on 29/03/2022 - 11:16
    +15

    They are trying to scare you .

    Take your money and stop communicating with them. Tell them one last time that the matter is finalised and you won't be responding anymore.

    You do have the bond money back don't you?

    • HeWhoKnows on 30/03/2022 - 19:38
      -6

      OP acted dishonestly and improperly knowing full well that a cleaning charge was to be deducted
      Hence the agent has every right to take the matter to the tribunal and charge OP for costs
      OP can also be blacklisted with the Tribunals blessing

      And for OP's information a proper end of lease clean starts at $450 so you should have accepted that invoice as it was for actual costs incurred.

      The cleaning prices you saw online are more like bait advertising and cannot be used as a reference point.
      You need a formal quote stating exactly what is to be cleaned and I doubt it would have been less that $450.
      I know this from 20 years of property management

      So dear OP I would just pay the $450 cleaning fee and save yourself a lot of trouble and potential listing in TRA or other tenant data bases
      Its just not worth ruining your good rental record mate.

      • arkhos on 31/03/2022 - 10:32
        +1

        dishonestly is a big word, and for the records - the only reason why I don't want to dispute in court the claim, is that I am currently in Cambridge, UK with a few things marginally more important than a couple hundreds bucks.
        I already had the pleasure to stick court's orders in the large mouth of a few real estate agents in UK and I would have loved to do the same in Australia. Next time, I guess.

  • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:19
    +5

    I do have, and I think they simply forgot to apply to RBO, they are too lazy, or know already they have no ground. Which is something that I whole-heartly would like to slap on their face (I won't). I am aware that tenants can dispute up to 6 months after a bond has been released. However, it appears that this is not so on the agency / landlord side. After 14 days of inaction, the bond is liquidated and they have to suck it. Is that correct?

    • ThithLord on 29/03/2022 - 11:21
      +1

      Sounds about right. Can you check the tenancy laws in NSW?

    • knasty on 29/03/2022 - 11:24
      +4

      Why not ask the rental bond board? Get an answer in writing.

      [email protected]

      • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:26

        thanks, much appreciated

    • HeWhoKnows on 30/03/2022 - 19:40

      "I don't really feel like giving up."

      You acted dishonestly
      You knew about the cleaning charge

      Sorry but you are the one that did the wrong thing

  • tsunamisurfer on 29/03/2022 - 11:21

    it is the trite fact of being scammed by a dumb shark that I don't really tolerate.

    How are you being scammed? You recognised the cleaning needs to be done (how a tenant exits without a clean is beyond me). The only question is the cost of the clean, whether its your lowballing $300 range or the proper $450 clean.

    • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:24
      +1

      The scam is to be be threatened of a due legal action whereby there is no ground for it.

      • tsunamisurfer on 29/03/2022 - 11:27
        +1

        You didn't clean the property, hence someone else has to do it.

        • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:39
          +3

          This is what they claim, just like they claimed a long array of physical damages which I happened to be able to dispute (about 80% of the claim) on solid grounds.

          But relative to intangible and arbitrary opinions such as "dusty door frames", logic and evidence can little.

          Besides, if they have such solid ground, wouldn't they go for disputing the bond release?

          • Quantumcat on 29/03/2022 - 11:45

            @arkhos: End of lease cleans include things like walls, window sills and door frames.

            You did badly by not cleaning the place properly before leaving.

            However I don't think they can get money out of you. I hope the landlord is able to get the real estate agent to pay for the cleaning since they also did poorly by not disputing the bond release.

            • user3721 on 29/03/2022 - 13:39
              +6

              @Quantumcat: RBO’s website only says the place needs to be reasonably clean, not spotless.

              • Quantumcat on 29/03/2022 - 13:57

                @user3721: It needs to be the same condition of was leased in, minus fair wear and tear

                • bweiss on 30/03/2022 - 07:52

                  @Quantumcat: It just needs to be 'reasonably clean', the level that a reasonable person would consider as acceptable for future occupation.
                  If the owners went and got multi-million dollar NASA certified polishes on all the metal surfaces, you do NOT need to do this, unless that was a detail explicitly included in the lease agreement, that the apartment had NASA certified polished surfaces.. in which case if you can get them NASA certified for $50.. congrats, no need to spend the millions.

                  Fair wear and tear relates to 'damage' to the construct of the apartment. This means that there can be scuffs/minor dents on plasterboard in high traffic areas, the carpet can be worn, some scuffing etc may occur to hard floors etc. Even small chips in surfaces like marble / ceramic may be acceptable if the lease period was sufficiently long.
                  Fair wear and tear should be in relation to the item and the depreciation period for the item. So if carpet has been depreciated over a 10 year period, and your lease period has been 10 years.. then you can have absolutely destroyed the carpet beyond repair, and that is 'fair wear and tear' because after 10 years the carpet now has no taxable value.
                  There may be a consideration of labour cost to replace the carpet (if the damage is clearly negligent or intentional), but the material cost of the carpet would be null.

          • HeWhoKnows on 30/03/2022 - 19:42
            -6

            @arkhos: You sound like the TENANT FROM HELL

            Dishonest and totally unreasonable.

            • arkhos on 31/03/2022 - 20:12
              -1

              @HeWhoKnows: Your behaviour is telling of an entire industry's attitude, man. Not sure if you realized everybody here is considering you a fool. For the simple reason that either from one or the other side of the market (or both, like my case), we all had to interface with the cancer of letting agencies and we are all well aware of their attitude in doing business.

      • trilby on 29/03/2022 - 14:12

        Do you think they would go through the process of legal action just for $450 when their case looks pretty shady at best?
        Did you take pictures after cleaning - maybe it was adequate but they wanted a professional finish.

        • HeWhoKnows on 30/03/2022 - 19:44
          +1

          You obviously have no idea what you are talking about
          Its not legal action

          Its an application to the Tribunal
          It only costs about $70

          The Tribunal can impose orders to pay outstanding costs whether there is a bond held or not.

          For OP's sake its better to pay what is owed.
          OP admits thery didn't do any end of lease cleaning
          OP did engage any end of lease cleaner

          So the agent did and OP is liable for the invoiced cleaning charges

          End of story

          • trilby on 31/03/2022 - 09:21

            @HeWhoKnows: I'm going on the above where OP says he feels 'threatened of a due legal action'. Even if it's just the tribunal, I can't see them paying $70 and spending countless hours to try and get back $450.
            Also, I can't see where the OP says he didn't do any end of lease cleaning. He may not have employed a professional firm, but was that stated in the lease?

            • HeWhoKnows on 04/04/2022 - 22:05

              @trilby: OP has implied that they did no end of lease cleaning.
              maybe a quick wipe over and even that wasn't suggested but certainly not a thorough end of lease clean'
              Chalk and cheese!

              " I can't see them paying $70 and spending countless hours to try and get back $450."

              well that's what happens
              And possible blacklisting too

  • garetz on 29/03/2022 - 11:22
    +1

    They can make a claim, however it doesn't mean that the claim will be successful, sounds like they are trying to bully you.
    If they take you to the tribunal it is nor a trial per se, it is like a process for disputes, I very much doubt there will be any cost to you at all.
    Yes you can nominate a 3rd party to represent you at your discretion.

    • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:25

      Thanks. Do you have an idea of the possible cost of this under the worst possible scenario (being requested to pay).
      Also, is it going to negatively reflect on my credit / tenancy score?

      thanks

      • garetz on 29/03/2022 - 11:28
        +1

        First they have to prove it is reasonable to require a clean then provide a reasonable costed service to actually do the claim.
        If you are found at fault, you would be responsible for the cleaning cost, that's it.
        It will not affect your credit score, unless they get the judgement of a cost in their favor, you dont pay it, then they engage debt recovery services. I've never heard of a tenancy score.

        • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 11:35

          Fantastic. And what about the costs of the trial?

          PS: I just shot an email to RBO with the above message.

          • njastar on 29/03/2022 - 11:52
            +3

            @arkhos: FYI the tribunal is very pro-tenant and they usually always rule in the tenant's favor. It's also not up to you to agree to their demands, it's up to them to convince you to agree. The agent will have to prove it to the judge, why you owe them money, saying something is so is not good enough, they'll have to prove it.

            Additionally, the landlord will have to pay the agent to appear at the tribunal, which will probably cost them 200-300 dollars, meaning that they probably won't do it.

            This is usually when both parties contest the bond, I haven't heard of one party getting the bond and then the other party contested it afterwards. Usually, once the 14 days is over and you've gotten the bond, the matter is resolved IMO.

            I reckon what has happened is that you've applied for the bond without them realizing, and now they've realized they've (profanity) up and they're trying to scare you into giving it back.

            • bobbified on 29/03/2022 - 12:09
              +1

              @njastar:

              I reckon what has happened is that you've applied for the bond without them realizing

              I understand that the agency gets a notification/prompt when an application is lodged for the bond to get released. When this came in a while ago, I asked my mates what they do and they explained that their companies have put in specific procedures to deal with these notifications so that they don't miss them. This was across a number of different agencies so I'm assuming they've probably addressed these things as an industry.

            • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 22:38

              @njastar: Thanks, I appreciate. Yeah - that is pretty much what happened and coherently follows a path of inefficiencies and bad management.

      • deme on 29/03/2022 - 12:28

        No cost, no to both scores

    • HeWhoKnows on 30/03/2022 - 19:50
      -4

      Another one that has NO IDEA

      OP failed to pay the cleaning invoice totaling $450

      There is no dispute about this

      The Tribunal might say the agent should have deducted it from the bond
      But the agent didn't release the bond and Op didnt tell the agent they had applied for its release
      However if the agent was trying to reduce the cleaning charge as OP requested then the Tribunal will side with the agent

      Its fairly obvoius OP acted dishonestly!

  • AndyC1 on 29/03/2022 - 11:45
    +1

    Call NCAT and ask them if the REA can add their costs to an amount they are my bring to the NCAT to dispute?
    Check out https://www.tenants.org.au and ask them.

    • deme on 29/03/2022 - 12:27
      +1

      They cannot

      • AndyC1 on 29/03/2022 - 16:49

        What they cannot call?

        • deme on 29/03/2022 - 21:11

          I should have been more direct:

          REA can add their costs to an amount they are my bring to the NCAT to dispute?

          You can't — at a tribunal. At court, costs can be awarded but you can't just make up any number nor can you hire 20,000 lawyers and ask for costs.

  • bobbified on 29/03/2022 - 11:48
    +8

    The 14 day rule was put in place to force both parties to act quickly and not drag things out unnecessarily (especially for the tenant who often requires the bond money back for their next rental). After 14 days and no challenge, the matter is considered final and the bond is released.

    If the agent tries to apply to the tribunal afterr that, they'll firstly need to address why the issue wasn't raised in those 14 days. I suspect that unless there are exceptional circumstances that prevented the agent from doing so, the tribunal is going to tell the agent to get stuffed (ok, maybe not that blunt!)! lol

    • HeWhoKnows on 04/04/2022 - 22:07
      -1

      There certainly were exceptional circumstances
      OP dodged his obligation to pay the cleaning charge

  • thatonethere on 29/03/2022 - 12:15
    +1

    nah it's too bad - they had to go to the RBO to dispute the release of the bond with their revised claim within 14 days.

  • deme on 29/03/2022 - 12:27
    +3

    The agent is now claiming that if I don't proceed with paying the requested amount, they will apply to tribunal and put the trial cost on top of the cleaning fee they originally claimed.

    You cannot do this (costs) at a tribunal lol.
    Also the matter of the bond is final

    Just reply back saying: lol

    name and shame the rea

  • Davo1111 on 29/03/2022 - 12:29
    -2

    Sounds like you left the place unclean. That makes you equally as bad as them (even if the law is in your favour)

    • arkhos on 29/03/2022 - 22:43
      +2

      My friend, if it was unclean they wouldn't miss the chance to apply for a RBO refund as quick as hell, and I can guarantee the check out report would have been a way heftier.

      Come on, you know what happened. They designed the $450 bucks (about 1/4 of the bond) and then made up the claims by randomly selecting flaws in the place to top-up the usual unverifiable claims (see "dusty door handles' above lol).

      Then, it turned out I could debunk all solid flaws they pointed out, leaving a $450 claim in their hand with no solid ground to make a move.

  • Jason Genova on 29/03/2022 - 14:55

    how dirty did you leave the joint?

    • arkhos on 30/03/2022 - 03:36

      not enough to have the agency bother clicking the "dispute" button

  • rektrading on 29/03/2022 - 16:30
    +1

    RBO released my bond in full
    Since I'm currently overseas

    There is nothing to worry about.

    You have the bond and is out of the country. They can't touch you.

    • thatonethere on 29/03/2022 - 17:01

      Not legally anyway

      • deme on 29/03/2022 - 21:25

        Never trust real estate agents but I doubt they'll send bikes over $400

  • deme on 29/03/2022 - 21:24
    +2

    OP let me try put your mind at ease.

    You’ll receive payment 14 days after your claim if the landlord or agent does not dispute it.

    If they do dispute your claim, they’ll have to apply to the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal within 14 days. The tribunal will then decide how the bond will be paid.

    If you disagree with a claim against the bond
    If the landlord or agent makes a claim for all or part of the bond without your agreement, they have 7 days to provide you with:

    a copy of the condition report that was completed at the end of your lease
    copies of any estimate quotes, invoices or receipts for the work they’re claiming

    The only way the landlord could get the bond after the 14 days is if they had actually disputed it within the timeframe.

    http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/rta201…

    You can appeal a tribunal or court decision even if bond payment has been paid but to do that you have to actually dispute within the 14 days.

    • arkhos on 30/03/2022 - 03:35

      Thanks

  • arkhos on 30/03/2022 - 10:35

    Bad update down there, straight from Fair Trade

    A rental bond that has been released may still be disputed at the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal (the Tribunal).

    Under the Residential Tenancies Regulation 2019 the statutory timeframe for a rental bond dispute to be lodged with the Tribunal is 6 months.

    The Tribunal may make an order whether or not the amount of a rental bond has been paid.

    Further information regarding the Tribunal and applicable costs may be found on the Tribunal's website at https://ncat.nsw.gov.au/ncat/case-types/housing-and-property…

    I trust this information is of assistance.

    Yours sincere;y
    Real Estate & Property

    • b0rnwithabeard on 30/03/2022 - 19:06
      +1

      i wouldn’t be too disheartened - like someone else said, they’ll still need to explain why they didn’t do it within the 14 days, and the judge won’t be impressed that they tried to threaten you with court costs, as well as making claims that you were able to explain with proof. Tribunal judges generally hate it when RE’s pull this kind of rigmarole. Go to tribunal and make sure you state facts clearly and concisely. Don’t use the phrases or tell stories about how things “made you feel”. Stick to the facts, tell the truth and you’ll be fine

      • arkhos on 30/03/2022 - 19:35

        Thanks, I usually enjoy the process of having court orders in my favour (I went through ruling a couple of times in UK against a real estate agent and a major electricity supplier) and I agree with the proposed style and I also agree there is enough material on the table to get a favorable verdict without tainting facts with lateral (and potentially damaging) considerations. The problem is - I am currently abroad, and I would be forced to completely delegate the process to somebody else.

        So I may have to suck it this time - and this only time (I promise!) and close my little Cicero in a closet until I am back for the next legal adventure ;(

        • bweiss on 01/04/2022 - 08:50

          Don't pay pre-emptively.
          If they want to take you to the tribunal for it, you could participate remotely (via Zoom or similar).
          The tribunal would not consider it fair to force you to return to dispute $450.
          If they try to go through a civil suit instead, I'm sure the judge would throw it out almost immediately (since there is a tribunal they should have gone through), and even if such a civil case went forward I'm sure you could participate remotely (local legal council might be more of an issue here… But not a bridge you need to cross yet)

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