Emergency Vehicles with Lights on but No Sirens

dufflover on 07/05/2022 - 23:37
Last edited 08/05/2022 - 12:59

Can finally get the full OzBargain experience by posting a traffic related thread! :P

Not the most frequent thing but still regularly enough to keep reminding me of this; why is it that often emergency services will go running red lights but only with lights on but not the sirens. Taking that 131 444 ad too literally? I mention running reds specifically because in all these cases I see a car have to brake hard because an ambo or something has run into the intersection on a red, and at best they've turned on their siren on the second half only after they almost got hit.

Obviously there's no question here on who legally has right of way but surely I can't be the only one seeing this and thinking it's stupid? Or have any insights as to why?
Not doing it at intersections just seems to me like a bigger accident waiting to happen.

I'm in VIC in case the S.O.Ps vary between states.

Edit to make it clear, I'm talking about why wouldn't a vehicle have the sirens on when running reds on busy roads especially ones with blind corners?

Automotive

Comments

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 07/05/2022 - 23:42
    +9

    is it that often emergency services will go running red lights but only with lights on but not the sirens

    Dat feel when you have a raw chicken curry at the PMs place and about 5 minutes from recreating the grisly scene of 1997 Engadine Maccas… but you technically don’t have a patient on board so you gotta play it real low key.

  • tebbybabes on 07/05/2022 - 23:52
    +2

    For some services, it's based on the degree of urgency they need. In some cases,

    it's just arrive at best possible safest speed.
    In some cases it's lights only.
    In some cases it's lights AND sirens, pedal to the metal, if you can get an escort, do it.

  • Muzeeb on 07/05/2022 - 23:57
    +4

    there's no question here on who legally has right of way

    .

    No one has right of way

    pegaxs 2012 - probably

    • pegaxs on 08/05/2022 - 00:05
      +4

      You forgot the;

      there is only the obligation to give way…

      (And for the record, @euphamistic taught me this one. I can’t take all the credit.)

  • pegaxs on 08/05/2022 - 00:15
    +12

    Because “road rules”

    78 Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles

    (1) A driver must not move into the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) OR sounding an alarm.

    It’s either light and siren, or just lights or just siren.

    And quite often ambos will leave the siren off if they have someone who is being treated on the way to hospital and the sirens are causing distress, or the ambos don’t want to try and yell at each other in the back to be heard over the sirens or on the return trip, they are not as time critical as getting to the patient because there are people working in the back, so they take it slower on the return to hospital.

    • SF3 on 08/05/2022 - 08:22
      +2

      Because “road rules”

      Sir, but it’s more comforting to argue what’s isn’t fitting my narrative.

      • pegaxs on 08/05/2022 - 09:00
        +4

        I don’t want your facts, I just want to be outraged and for people to confirm my outrage… - Every forum poster, ever.

        • SF3 on 08/05/2022 - 12:41
          +1

          New comments appear to validate your point. ✅

    • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 10:34

      This one was enroute to an accident. Because I drove past it just up the road, near Willy. They were getting off the freeway and turned down that direction.

      Or if it wasn't that important they certainly darted onto the intersection pretty quickly for an ambo. I see plenty slow right down when running reds, even with the sirens on.

    • Chris Topher on 08/05/2022 - 16:42

      " if they have someone who is being treated on the way to hospital and the sirens are causing distress"

      Perzacterly.

    • Chandler on 08/05/2022 - 21:18

      that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights)

      Does this mean you must not moving into their path if they're pumping the brake pedal? :P

  • Euphemistic on 08/05/2022 - 06:48
    +1

    Sirens are really noisy. They tend to use them only when necessary. What you are indicating is YOU think it’s necessary but the driver has decided it’s not necessary for whatever reason.

    • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 10:23
      +1

      That's exactly the point you are missing. Do you not think running a red of a semi-busy intersection is clearly a justified use case for sirens as audible alert for the drivers with the green? Especially if it's a police car hidden by another lane, or in yesterday's case they were coming off a freeway ramp so behind the bridge walls (from pov of the other cars).

      The road rules as pegasx posted are fairly obvious. All you have done is repeat my question :P. Yes I am indicating my opinion here that it is unsafe. You say they can they decide without adding any opinions on why. You haven't said anything lol. Do you think then it's a good idea to be running reds at speed without the siren warning?

      • oscargamer on 08/05/2022 - 10:45
        +2

        Road rule 306 gives you the answer about reasonableness… Who assesses this could be a magistrate, a coroner or another person in authority…

        The driver of an emergency vehicle can break a road rule (in this case going through a red light)

        if—

        (a) in the circumstances—

        (i) the driver is taking reasonable
        care; and

        (ii) it is reasonable that the rule
        should not apply; and

        (b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle
        that is moving—the vehicle is displaying
        a blue or red flashing light or sounding an
        alarm.

      • Euphemistic on 08/05/2022 - 10:49

        you stated your opinion. You weren’t driving the emergency vehicles and you don’t have the experience the drivers do have.

        I wasn’t in any of the situations you were AND I probably would have perceived them differwntly anyway. Of course I can’t comment on those situations.

        Do I think lights and sirens is a better warning? Yes. Do you or I need to sit in the cabin with the siren going? No. Do they make a judgement call as to when to use either or both? Yes do they always get it right? No.

        • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 12:55

          That's why this post exists…
          I'm wondering if anyone has more insights or experience on whether it's a judgement call, or an error like they are "meant" to, or they are told to because people are more worried about their sleep or spooking crappy drivers, than the emergency at hand. Or heck on your point about OHS then it's insufficient PPE.

        • ChrisLevo on 08/05/2022 - 14:15
          +1

          Don't know why you were negged.

          Added a + for you.

  • Benoffie on 08/05/2022 - 09:26

    If you want to know why no sirens, it's because people complain.

    It's why sirens were changed to the trash directional type, why they've gone to the US style chirp instead of the uK style wail.

    People whinging about other people being saved. 🙄

    • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 10:38

      Well yes that's what I'm suspecting as well. This last one wasn't even that residential. It was coming off at Willy from the Westgate Bridge, and at a not too bad 10.30pm-ish.
      Other times has been in a retail distract in broad daylight hours.

      A straight road or non-busy road is one thing. Running a red with still enough cars on it is another.

      The whole point of them is to out-of-sight alert so given the safety risks created it seems daft they pander on this one.

      • Euphemistic on 08/05/2022 - 10:52

        They probably prefer not to use sirens at night. Lights are more obvious when it’s dark, and they won’t wake up the neighbours.

  • WreckTangle on 08/05/2022 - 09:38

    If you were driving would you want 120 decibels constantly blaring only 1 metre from your head?

    • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 10:16

      As the driver of the other car … yes :P

      There are solutions to this issue; loud equipment has existed since the industrial revolution. Gee whiz how do all those other operators of loud machinery exist?
      🎧
      Maybe not an exactly tailored one for this use exists right now but doesn't sound like they are trying either. I do think it's more due to other people complaining.

      Besides I've heard some people choose to pump out more than that surely inside their own car lol

      • Euphemistic on 08/05/2022 - 10:50

        And if they’ve got hearing protection on while in the vehicle how do the t communicate with each other. More often than not they are using the passenger as an extra spotter.

        • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 12:34
          -4

          Uhh, this technology called radio :P.
          Gotta wonder how all those pilots or aircraft ground crews talk to each other in the cockpit, or many kilometres apart …

          Ok facetiousness aside no, can't expect it to be an easy fix per se like funding and training to just go chucking old RAAF headsets on everyone, but technologically sound proofing exists, radios exist.

          But just for context with the other comments I am far more believing it's to do with the other people instead, which this wouldn't really change anyway.

          • Euphemistic on 08/05/2022 - 15:51
            +1

            @dufflover: 1st priority of WHS is elimination, PPE is last. It’s better to not make the noise than to try to protect the ears.

  • pharkurnell on 08/05/2022 - 10:29
    +2

    Its depressing how many people you see on the road with no idea what to do around emergency vehicles

    • toristo on 08/05/2022 - 11:39
      +4

      Its depressing how many people you see on the road with no idea what to do.

      There. Much better.

  • GordonD on 08/05/2022 - 11:19
    +1

    Here's the definitive and correct answer.

    Emergency vehicles sometime choose to go through intersections with the flashing lights on but the siren off because the siren blaring at them scares the hell out of some drivers and causes them to panic and do really stupid things. Like heading in all directions to get out of the way, including into the path of other traffic. It is safer for the emergency vehicle to take a bit higher risk of only having the lights on, and maybe take a few more seconds to get through the intersection, than to risk the potential and not uncommon panicked reaction to the siren.

    You still have to give way to them if they've only got the lights on.

    Note that in the case of ambulances there are scenarios where the driver will not use the siren at all if it will cause distress to the patient, and where the lights and siren might both be on but the ambulance is being driven slowly because the second ambo officer needs to attend to the patent and not be jerked around. You still have to give way to them in both these cases.

  • GordonD on 08/05/2022 - 11:48

    There are a lot of standardisation of road laws around Australia, but unfortunately what laws emergency vehicles can break in an emergency, even with lights flashing and siren on, and what rules a driver getting out of the way can break, does vary. I suspect a lot of people think they know what the rules are, but they know it for their state, and don't realise its different for other states. Or they know what it is for another state, and don't realise its not the same in their state.

    https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/road-rules-emergency-vehi…

    For example in NSW a driver getting out of the way of an ambulance can go through a red light. In WA they can't. In SA an ambulance driver can exceed the speed limit, but must obey all other rules, whereas drivers can disobey any rule to get out of an ambulance's way. In NSW ambulances can break any rule, and even drive on the wrong side of the road.

    • dufflover on 08/05/2022 - 12:50

      Generally speaking I do think emergency vehicles should basically get free reign over the rules … just use the devices and alerts as intended. It seems a bit stupid to have all these authorisations, alerts but then "oh but you're not allowed to wake the neighbours even when taking a blind corner at a busy industrial intersection".

  • kmwa on 08/05/2022 - 14:01

    The consequences of not using sirens…
    Three years in prison for Tasmania Police officer who killed a man and injured his wife in Launceston crash. Crown prosecutor Emily Stone told the court the officer was driving at about 89 kilometres per hour in a 50kph zone when the collision happened. The driver of the police car, Aaron Tasman Bonner, was responding to a non-urgent call when he sped through a red light and collided with another car, which sent his vehicle out of control and onto the footpath. She said he had his vehicle's emergency lights on, but only activated the siren briefly.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-06/tas-jail-for-ex-polic…

    • GordonD on 08/05/2022 - 16:56

      Lights and sirens do not remove the requirement on emergency vehicle drivers to only do it if its safe.

  • TEER3X on 08/05/2022 - 14:07

    Haven't seen them in Vic run reds without sirens, but have seen them roaming around with just flashing lights.

    Without really knowing, I just assumed lights but no sirens was less of an emergency.

    I think they should always have their sirens on when running through traffic lights, put them on plenty early too

  • Rubyroo3 on 08/05/2022 - 18:44

    I can tell you from personal experience and this was straight from the mouth of a paramedic that they actually prefer not to turn on the sirens because as soon as they do there is so much paperwork involved after it explaining why they needed the sirens.
    So if you see an ambulance with sirens on then there is a very good reason and most likely it is because the person inside is near death.
    If they only have lights on then there is much less paperwork involved.

  • iratepirate on 09/05/2022 - 00:51

    When I drive an RFS or SES vehicle (NSW) and I am responding I use lights at all times, but I don't use sirens and air horns when there is no safety advantage to be gained by
    their use.
    You must take reasonable care when braking the traffic rules or you may be charged.

    eg. Going through a red light with traffic at an intersection come to a full stop and proceed slowly with two tones…No one around on a rural road at night - lights only.

  • rektrading on 09/05/2022 - 07:55

    Drivers that can't see a 3T van with red and blue flashing 💡 should not be driving.

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