With a recent article raising concern over Bunnings, Kmart and the Good Guys use of facial recognition technology in their stores, how do you feel about it?
After reading this, I was alarmed to find a warning sign about this at the entrance of a few local stores around me. More concerning was that my local Kmart's sign was 'hidden' behind a pull up banner advertisement.
25/7 Update - It looks like Kmart and Bunnings are pausing their facial recognition surveillance for now.
sticky note
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Use a non-self-service checkout
no they’re not
how do you feel about it?
There are people that ruin it for the rest of us. This is why the world feels more and more dystopian.
The government already knows enough information about you, your habits and what you search on the internet. If this is the thing that is finally making you worry, then I've got a rude surprise for you.
So why give them even more data to add to their monster?
Ok, unless you buy everything with cash, your bank knows exactly where you spend your money and how often, they also know how much you get paid. Your smartphone knows exactly where you’ve been everyday. The government gets an updated copy of your face when you renew your passport or licence every 5/10 years. Your doctor/dentist/pharmacy knows all your medical issues and medications you take. Bunnings and Kmart using facial recognition should be the smallest of your concerns.
So because other bad things are already happening we shouldn't be concerned about something new bad happening?
If a plane crashes today, it any fatalities from car crashes next month are not concerning you any more because the plane crash was much worse?
Last time I checked Kmart and Bunnings were private companies.
So what?
Are you saying it's OK for private corporations to spy on you but not the government?
Or visa-versa?
TBH I don't really care, unless someone has a legally signed court order to spy on your personal movements based on valid suspicions that you are engaged in real criminal activity then it should all be illegal. Of course who are we kidding? Look at the wonderful technocracy in China, I suspect you'll be seeing it real close sooner than you'd like.
Never asserted that it was ok for businesses to spy on people. I was making the distinction as there is a difference between governments having that data vs businesses. What's the difference? the government collects and uses sensitive information of its citizens to govern the country and provide public services. We entrust that information with them and expect that their handling of it is limited and accountable.
@Bangers: Blind faith is never a good line when it comes to government and what they 'should' be doing. One tiny example.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/7894532/…
So has anyone come up with a device to thwart this kind of thing? (Apart from a mask of course.)
I did read a couple of years back of some glasses with LEDS around them but they looked pretty crap.
Anyway..
Hmmmm… $100 pair of anti-facial recognition glasses, but look like a tool… Maybe an hour of facial makeup/camouflage to blend areas in to flatten facial features but look like a tool… Gurning, but look like a tool… or a $1 medical face mask… Perhaps Occam's Razor?
Yeah I thought of the face diaper but apparently the AI can still figure out who you are from the top half of your face. Maybe wear 2?
Hat with a curved brim worn low over your head and a face mask is not bad.
Burka?
Facemask + glasses (or a baseball cap).
Unfortunately many of these biometric systems are getting really smart - more sophisticated systems measure not just facial features, but also things like walking patterns etc., which makes it really hard to fool them.
Good news that these systems are used mostly in hi-security places like airports or govt buildings and probably will never make their way to places like Kmart.
Todays sophisticated system is tomorrows cheap import from China. Once the technology exists it will be everywhere before long.
I’m afraid you’re right :(
Facial recognition can be fooled by painting black and white patches on the face. So people just need to start turning up to stores dressed like KISS band members.
Or turning up like a Panda.
There's already quite strict privacy legislation… which is why a couple of stores suspended their camera when called out by Choice magazine.
They have every right to film you and do whatever else they want with footage in the context of their own business. What they cannot do is breach our privacy laws by passing on that data without your explicit consent.
Do you really think they need facial recognition to do creepy stuff? You need only look at the emails that you get from colesworth (not to mention amazon) to know that they already know a metric tonne about your preference and spending habits.
In the end, they have the raw footage of everything you do in the store… they could hire a building full of third world workers to manually catalog your movements. The latest tech bump is small to be point of being inconsequential.
But muh freedoms
Haha poll option 2 for sure. Anything for a bargain.
You're most likely being recorded as it is, don't care either way since I'm not a criminal.
But if it does bother you then people need to avoid shopping, supply feedback to the store and if it impacts them enough then they will discontinue.
All new generation Hikvision cameras ($300/ea) can now do facial recognition, with the ability to automatically store up to 10,000 unique faces. To identify, say a theft, I can select a face and search all instances/visits on the NVR. I can also tag faces to put on a "blacklist", which instantly sends me push notification if that person is detected on my NVR. This technology previously only available to high-end cameras are starting to make their way to affordable/cheap surveillance cameras.
facebook has had it for years too. yes, i know that facebook is not a camera
Humans have had this ability for a while: I didn’t see any uproar about that?
Pretty sure Westfield has been doing this for years… written someone in their T&C’s for entry.
Very bad. Facial recognition technology in public is not good. The benefits of possibly catching some criminals do not outweigh cons of mass tracking of your location and activities. I don't value having my face and location data stored by every big business so they can get a few better % on their marketing spends towards targeting me.
Look how facial recognition is going in China. You want it so that they see you visit McDonalds and your health premiums increase? Etc. Not good IMO.
yet here you are on social media
I work in tech. We can do a lot of naughty things with facial recognition. Most people don't care because they believe it is harmless.
I do not care. It's my face, so what if they can see where I went in their store? They could do it without the tracking software.
I'm comfortable with things like Google tracking my every movement, having my payments, photos, email etc, why would I care about stores being able to recognise faces?
This is why I wear Groucho Marx glasses everywhere.
Where’s the software they use come from? Is our biometric data being sent to certain authoritarian state who leads the way in this type of software?
why do you need facial recognition cameras in your stores?
uhhh, covid? and… the ukraine war, and customer safety…. yes.
For those who voted, you know the public can see your vote right? You're being tracked now, but don't worry you're no more important than the next doofus here.
Storm in a teacup is all it is.
Anti vaxxers and covid hoaxers:
Time to wear a mask 🎭
The Chaser beat you to it :D
Think they summed it up though…
“I won’t stand for it!” posted one conspiracy theorist today on a giant website that harvests all their data to sell to the highest bidder. “From now on I will be wearing a facemask to Kmart to ensure the only way they can track me is via my numberplate, the data broadcast by my phone everywhere I go, my credit card, and the 30 apps I have installed on my phone that all track my every move. Checkmate government.”
Good guys are so technically advanced that they are using facial recognition but somehow not technical advanced enough to manage an e-commerce site and honour their deals.
Wear a facemask and sunglasses
I guess good guys and kmart have temporarily suspended use of this technology until further notice. Bunnings refused to comment on their intentions.
One thing is clear, using of such technologies will only evole as they get affordable with time and their widespread use. Before you know it, your digital profile will do shopping for you, sit back and relax..
Security camera is fine, but IMO facial recognition is breach of privacy.
Currently I enter those stores with Sunglasses + Mask.
Since when is your face a private part lmao
Richard Cranium?
I hate it. But the horse has bolted. People don’t care enough to do anything about it. So long as they can save a buck.
Kinda like uber, they just did it even though it was illegal and then forced governments to change the laws.
At the of the day if you're not someone who steals from stores then this doesn't affect you.
They can use facial recognition all they want, it's meaningless unless they actually know who you are to begin with.
Assuming they don't know who you are.
But they can track you across stores, locations, times and link together with transaction data, building up a profile of who you are, what you buy, how long you shop and other habits.
Who cares?
They should have released this article back in April 2020 to make all the sovcits wear masks lol
Facial recognition is old tech. Gait recognition is where it's at in the past few years. The technology currently sits around the low 90s in correctly identifying a person. Pretty soon it'll be coming to your local Coles.
Private enterprise and government in partnership with a social credit system? Facial recognition? Digital ID? Sounds about right.
its creepy and just plain old bad manners. but I'm not super pissed off about it, I would just prefer going to another store. its not illegal to film someone in public but I still wouldn't like to be constantly filmed everywhere i go. only famous people should have to deal with that.
I think they should at least have a law saying that they need to have a prominent visible sign letting people know that they are being filmed and run through image recognition data. in the end most people would probably not care if the store is good. just like the internet.
i feel the same way about internet privacy. as long as they are transparent about their practices and give me the chance to decide for myself what personal data im sharing im happy. non identifiable data - feel free to collect. (e.g. average time spent in store, average money spent, etc)
Just don’t go to those stores then.
Seriously this is a storm in a teacup… bloody cupcake weaklings
It already goes much further than this for some stores. You've seen those screens in a travel agent's window as you walk past? You are being watched when you stop to look at the screen. There is AI at work noting your facial expressions and tracking where your eyes are looking at any point in time. They want to know if that picture of a tropical beach makes you happy or not, what about the picture of the winter wonderland? So you go in the store because something has piqued your interest. There are sensors around the entire store to monitor your movements, where you walk, how long you stop for at any given location. Again, more cameras watching what you look at and reading your facial expressions. Silent pairing with your phone (the same way the COVIDSafe app silently connects) to connect you to your digital (Google / FB etc) identity and before you know it, they know absolutely everything about you and your travel plans. It's insidious and very scary in my opinion. These business are using it to build their sales - fine. But the fact this technology is so readily available makes this a worry when any threat actor can simply jump on board and so easily learn all about you.
So Flight Center is at the forefront of facial recognition?
So much tech, yet we still need to print out separate COVID vaccination records with QR code to take overseas and returning to Australia.
Thin edge of the wedge. Very worrying without legislation designed to protect privacy in place.
when I see discussions like this I have to ask 'you are in public and you still think you have any privacy?'
I’m actually very confused by some of the responses here when people say when they are out in “public”.
Last I checked the stores in question are private businesses and you are actually entering private property.
These people are on the internet and think they have privacy?
Probably the same people with multiple social media accounts that track their every online and physical move.
But a company wants to use their info to stop thieves? Heavens no!
Just wear a face mask and a hat and they can’t identify u?
If you don't mind facial recognition tech logging your every move are you ok with cameras in the bathrooms? I mean you have nothing to hide right and surely all this data will only be used for good.
What's the difference between a staff remembering your face and a camera doing it?..
On a serious note, facial recognition is nothing new and used to catch criminals all the time by the police, adf, ASIO, homeland security and so on. Bit whoop.
Better boycott the airport while your at it, and never fly overseas ever again.
And what about your innocent Number plate?
Guys. It's not just Big W and Good Guys. Alot of companies, and business use FRT and it's not all bad. FRT can be used for good.
Example: Open a door for the disabled, Counter Terrorism, VIP Customer Service, etc.
So long as they are not selling your data and protecting it. I'm fine with it.
Google, FB, Insta, TikTok, Snapchat, are selling your data. The Good Guys just want to give you better service.
Everyone's phone uses facial recognition to collate photos of people.
Everyone is walking around with facial recognition happening in their pockets!
If you're concerned, stop uploading photos / videos to:
Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, Insta etc etc etc…..
No?
Then stop being sucked into the manufactured outrage : )
or using face unlock on your IPhone..
It’s alarming to see so many pathetic weaklings complaining.
Toughen up princesses, stop crapping your pants
I've consulted at a public place with facial recogjition and the most seen person was Kurt Cobain and Jimmy Hendrix from shirts
With so many votes in the "I don't care", it goes to show how many NPCs truly don't give a damn. The same mindset as the Apple CSAM debacle with "Oh I got nothing to hide!".
TGG dropped the facial recognition after heavy customer backlash
I've noticed Woollworths in Brisbane CBD have selfie video cameras now - probably recording people's faces for theft.
They said they don't record, it's purely for the "watched" effect - https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/what-the-bagel-m…
People wanted less government oversight? Here it is.
As someone who deals with shoplifters nearly every day, I don't think people realise how much product is lost on a daily basis- and the cost to the store (and to you as a fellow honest shopper).
Stores put banning notices on people after police are called when they are caught stealing.
Do you honestly think those people give a crap about banning notices? They are sometimes back the very next day doing the same thing.
9/10 they don't get caught… and the 1/10 times they do, they DO NOT CARE.
This technology allows stores to stop that theft from happening 10/10.
As soon as the thief comes in store, security is notified. If there's a ban in place, police are notified due to the trespass.
I get that people are worried about their privacy, but theft is massive problem costing the economy trillions.
Stores do not give a crap about the honest shoppers.
Could they/will they eventually use it to put items in strategic locations that encourage certain behaviours of the shoppers based on tracking behaviours etc? Probably…. but the main issue here is the theft loss. It's absolutely staggering how much businesses lose.
Seriously, if you are that concerned don't shop there. But because most people don't care much about this initiative (because they understand why), this IS going to happen everywhere. Good luck finding an alternative Bunnings (sucks to say it, but that will be the reality).
Bunnings (using them as an example, but you get my point) have every right to prevent theft. They can set conditions of entry, and if you don't like those conditions don't go in!
It's not your right to stop Bunnings or anyone else taking video footage of you. They already do it anyway. Yes this is an additional step of analysing that data for future use, but so be it.
The monetary benefits to major retailers implementing this will not be ignored. IT IS HAPPENING. Like it or don't like it, it's not going away regardless of your personal protest to it. Even with this small poll, less than a quarter of respondents care. In the greater population, that figure will be even less.
Is it concerning that we are moving more and more to Big Brother? Yes. Are we anywhere near as bad as China or will be? No way in hell.
Only those with someone to hide want to be out of plain sight. Total privacy is assure if you stay in your own home provided you haven't invited recording devices in. Probably shop lifted one.
I never get people that shop lift. (I know there is desperate people) How could they not believe that what goes around comes around. I bet you if any one of them got rich they wouldn't be going back and repaying everyone they stole off.
Hate to agree with you but you have a point.
If scummy people weren't scumbags then stores wouldn't be spending money on this technology. Its a symptom of a greater disease, even as a customer I see a lot of theft at Bunnings and I shop there in a blue moon.
I'm concerned but as you said its on condition of entry, I have a choice not to enter.
Last time I went into bunnings this is how it went:
-Approach counter, myself and my bro
-Informed the cashier we were paying for out items separately.
-Bro pays for his items, cashier immediately walks away to chat to other staff member.
-We both had to raise our voice JUST to get someones attention (which was the other staff member)
-Cashier turns back, cracks a joke (I think?) that I should have just taken my items "no one would have done anything".
-I 'joke' back, "yeah but what if something was broked and I need to return it? lol".
Spose, self-serve and an A.I security would have stopped this situation from even happening. But it'd also hit the local economy here even harder. If they want to get rid of jobs and have robots; people either need UBI or another role (I vote UBI myself).
how much product is lost on a daily basis- and the cost to the store (and to you as a fellow honest shopper).
Shopping Centres factor shoplifting into their prices, so if you don't do it, it's like they're getting money for free.
- John Safran
"The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner (OAIC) has opened investigations into the personal information handling practices of Bunnings Group Limited and Kmart Australia Limited, focusing on the companies’ use of facial recognition technology."
https://www.oaic.gov.au/updates/news-and-media/oaic-opens-in…
I now keep a wig, mask, baseball cap and non prescription glasses in my car that I put on whenever I go into Bunnings. I'm not joking, fuk them
Good luck with that, I'm sure you won't draw needless attention to yourself :).
Hmm yes maybe I should drop the baseball cap to look more natural
hahahaha
maybe take a picture for us so I can see the complete outfit :).
Next time you go past one of those oOh! Billboard things in a shopping centre, take a closer look at the middle-top section. You’ll see a camera there. It can recognise facial expressions, brands on clothing…you don’t even need to go into stores anymore.
It can recognise facial expressions, brands on clothing
Damn I didn't know that, I thought the camera was only there for interactive advertising..
Did you also know that birds aren't real?!? The government murdered over 12 Billion birds from 1959-2001, and replaced these birds with surveillance drone replicas, which still watch us every day.
https://birdsarentreal.com/
I worked for a major advertising company and this is a lot of the stuff they were talking about in data meetings. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
That kind of thing is likely facial detection, different from recognition.
It just determines whether someone walked right past, or looked at the sign, and how long for, and some basic details about how many people were together and a guess at the age and gender. It's not linked to any kind of identification about who those people are or adding to some kind of profile. It's just stats.
Software = auroa ?
Breaking news: Shopping centers have been using your mobile phone MAC address to track you for years.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/use-of-phone-tracking…
Dear god
Not surprising that majority would not care. People lose their minds and start screeching about their 'freedoms' if the government collects any sort of data even when it's necessary, but openly spread their pre-lubed cheeks when it's a private company(Facebook, tiktok..etc). Makes sense that most governments with actual ill intentions are just saving time and buying backdoors and access to data directly from these companies.
Yeah, it's called "your thumb". They are free as well.