Alleged Car Incident Almost Two Years Ago, Insurance Company Still Requesting Payment with Questionable Evidence

syncTee on 12/07/2022 - 18:56
Last edited 12/07/2022 - 19:39 by 1 other user

Hi OzBargainers,

From my previous post Falsely Accused of Hitting Another Car awhile back, I was involved in an alleged incident almost two years ago. I firmly believe we did not hit their (call them Person A) car and have denied liability since.

Last year, Person A's insurance company sent our insurance company an email containing an independent witness statement saying that they saw us hit Person A's card. Without looking at the evidence, my insurance company said we were liable for the damages. We requested to look at the evidence statement and found that the email was from Person A's wife (who was there at the time), who stated "My husband (Person A) was the witness to the car reversing into the front of our car." That's equivalent to me being the independent witness in this scenario saying "I witnessed the event and I did not hit their car"? That's absurd! I have no idea how our insurance company missed this, and given that this was not an independent witness, this was dropped about six months ago … until now.

The email from my insurance company goes like this:

"We have received a call recording from the other insurer.

The witness is independent and was returning from shopping and saw "us" reverse into their vehicle

We now believe we cannot dispute the liability."

This is absolutely ridiculous!

(1) It's been almost two years since the alleged incident
(2) They've already submitted false witness statement claiming that they were independent (which they clearly were not) in attempts to get us to settle
(3) Now they've managed to conjure a call recording after we exposed that their initial witness was not independent, and now this witness supposedly is. We have not been provided with this call recording.
(4) How disappointing are insurance companies when it comes to these situations? They get a supposed piece of evidence, and without validating it, then pin it on us straight away.

My concern is that Person A has already lied once, what's to say that he isn't lying this time? How can I validate who this witness is (I for sure know my insurance company wouldn't bother validating it)? For all I know, he could have gotten his friend to say something, claim it's independent, and my insurance company just rolls over like they always do and just say "We now believe we cannot dispute the liability."

As I said before, it's not a lot of money ($6xx), but Person A seems to be hell-bent and has been breaking some rules to try to get us to settle and that doesn't sit right with me.

What are my options here? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Are they allowed to submit false witness statements without any repercussions?

Automotive Car Insurance Insurance

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 12/07/2022 - 19:03
    +18

    for a start i'd switch insurers, yours sounds pretty hopeless

    maybe get a lawyer to draft a letter with scary wording telling them that if they want to proceed with their claim, they can take it to court and remind them that perjury is a crime. that should shut them up

  • salrock on 12/07/2022 - 19:04

    A lawyer who can straighten the facts with insurance or
    Pay 6xx

    • AustriaBargain on 12/07/2022 - 19:21
      +7

      The insurer is meant to have their own lawyers to straighten this out for you.

      • dizzle on 13/07/2022 - 06:46

        yes but it's probably cheaper to payout than to dispute, particularly if they get money back from OPs excess

  • try2bhelpful on 12/07/2022 - 19:15
    +7

    For so little money your insurance company can’t be bothered finding out what is, really, going on. They will, probably, sting you with increased premiums for a claim.

    Many years ago my other half’s car got hit by another car; than then left the scene of the accident. Despite the confusion he managed to get the number plate. He contacted the cops to report the accident. Not long afterwards the car was reported stolen. A few days later it turned up, around the corner from the owners. Nothing we could do about any of it. The cops were skeptical too but if people are willing to brazen it out it is hard to do much.

  • iNeed2Pee on 12/07/2022 - 19:36
    +9

    Which insurance company are you with so I know to avoid. Please share this important information for quality assurance.

    • syncTee on 12/07/2022 - 22:56
      +4

      AAMI

      • iNeed2Pee on 12/07/2022 - 23:36
        +9

        Fml

      • Yummy on 13/07/2022 - 01:50

        You are so lucky…

        GTFO ASAP!

      • [Deactivated] on 13/07/2022 - 07:41
        +1

        colour me surprised.

  • JimmyF on 12/07/2022 - 19:42
    +1

    As I said before, it's not a lot of money ($6xx), but Person A seems to be hell-bent and has been breaking some rules to try to get us to settle and that doesn't sit right with me.

    Honestly you'll be spending more than $6xx for any legal path to even try and defend this. So……. it might be a case of settling just to make it go away the cheapest way you can. But in the meantime push back on the insurance and ask why they waited 2 years to make a 'claim'.

    • srhardy on 13/07/2022 - 11:43

      it hurst your renewals and porting to another company, they deliberatly penalise you so stuff the $600, argue the case as clearly you didnt do the act and therfore not liable for the damage

      • Jalif on 13/07/2022 - 12:57

        This might be a thing with the budget insurers, but insurers i've worked with don't penalise you for infrequent accidents.

        Multiple accidents in a short period, definitely.

  • toniyellow on 12/07/2022 - 19:54
    +1

    They can chase you for 6 years in most states, 3 in NT.
    https://mva.financialrights.org.au/dtop/its-been-a-long-time…

    Have you raised a complaint with AFCA?
    https://insurancelaw.org.au/factsheets/insurance-dispute-res…

    • syncTee on 12/07/2022 - 22:58
      +1

      I did not know about AFCA until you mentioned it. Thanks for your input - I'll definitely look into this avenue.

  • smallstakes54 on 12/07/2022 - 20:04
    +1

    Did you call your insurer to get some more details? Seems like they were using the husband as a witness and when that didn't work, got one of their friends to provide a witness statement.
    If you go to court, you'll need to show that the witness is related to them or provide proof you didn't hit their car. Otherwise you'll lose the case because there's a "neutral" 3rd party witness who claims they saw you hit their car.
    Your insurance company will not play private investigator, they will just go by whatever evidence is presented to them.
    I will probably just pay it. But if it's more about the principle, you can make a formal complaint and see where that takes you. Since it's a small amount, they might want to save all the hassle and just pay the other party on your behalf.

    • syncTee on 12/07/2022 - 23:01
      +2

      My thoughts are if they lied about the independent witness the first time, what's stopping them from doing it this time with the "call recording"?

      Otherwise, it's impossible to prove that the witness is related to them - they could just find a friend and they could pretend that they don't know each other. The ball is totally in their court and this is so unfair. What's stopping me from conjuring about a random witness and having them say "oh he didn't hit their car?"

      • Some Human on 13/07/2022 - 02:53
        +3

        What IS stopping you from phoning a friend and having them as a “witness“?

        • kiitos on 13/07/2022 - 08:38
          +1

          Morals. So for some people, nothing.

          • Some Human on 13/07/2022 - 10:02
            -1

            @kiitos: Person A is playing dirty. OP can follow the righteous path or play Person A's game…maybe by getting 2 "witnesses".

            • bhubb18 on 13/07/2022 - 16:16
              +2

              @Some Human: Jokes on OP, the other guy already has 3 'witnesses' ready

  • SmiTTy on 13/07/2022 - 01:08
    +1

    Is there anyway you can prove you were not there at the time they suggested you were?.. Perhaps you have an independent alibi (assuming you weren't there…)

  • Dlw on 13/07/2022 - 01:46
    +5

    I was in a somewhat similar situation. Other person claimed I hit their car when they had actually hit mine. They lied to the insurance company and created false statements. We ended up both being with nrma and after months of phone calls they said I was liable. I stood my ground, continued to escalate to someone higher and they eventually said that I wasn’t liable. I then had them email me this in writing. Not sure how my story will help you.

  • TheOtherLeft on 13/07/2022 - 08:10
    +2

    Even if you pay the $6x, won't your premium go up next time and you then have to declare it for the next three years?

  • Drj55 on 13/07/2022 - 08:17
    +2

    Was an original police report filled? Was the new "independent" witness in the report? Have they made a statement to the police? Why have they been so long to come forward? It's all completely dodgy and I would stand my ground on principle - assuming you didn't actually do it! Have the police or at least your insurer come to your car to look for corresponding damage to your back bumper? If there is none then how could damage to theirs ar occur?

  • jacross on 13/07/2022 - 08:57
    +3

    Insurance companies aren't in the business of Erin Brokoviching for you. They aren't a retainer for legal services. They do not pretend to be so. There comes a point for businesses where it is easier and more profitable to settle and it sounds like that point was reached a long time ago (particularly for $660).

    If insurance companies fought to the death over every ridiculous cause then insurance would have a completely prohibitive cost in a world where insurance costs are already skyrocketing.

    If you don't want them to cover you; If you so strongly believe in your cause; lawyer up. Or represent yourself, which would be hilarious.

    Either way keep us updated because this is a compelling story.

    • JimmyF on 13/07/2022 - 09:25
      +1

      Insurance companies aren't in the business of Erin Brokoviching for you
      If insurance companies fought to the death over every ridiculous cause

      But they should have some clear processes in place to STOP claims like this happening in the first place. What is stopping me from having a crash, then picking a random car to blame and claiming they hit me and my 'friend' saw it, so pay me!

      Surely a police report should have been filed at the time and the fact that the 'witnesses' keep changing should be a red flag from both Insurance companies sides. Let alone now 2 years after the fact a new 'witness' has popped up out of the woodwork.

      OP Offer them $300 to settle the claim as a good will gesture only, no admission of fault, take it or leave.

      • jacross on 14/07/2022 - 12:22

        You are touching on some things that I found curious about the one side of the story we are privy to. I'm not claiming to know what the truth is, I'm just laying out some incentives.

    • Drj55 on 13/07/2022 - 09:28
      +1

      So, IF it was you and IF you knew that you hadn't hit this person's car, and then they first tried to pass off the wife as an "independent" witness and that was only withdrawn when you discovered it and THEN they come back years later with another "witness", you'd be totally okay with your insurance paying them for something you didn't do?

      You'd be happy for all your insurances policies for your cars to increase?
      You'd be happy ticking that box stating you had an at fault claim for the next 3-5 years?
      Would you be fine with that? Just shrug and say no biggie?

      • JimmyF on 13/07/2022 - 11:52

        You'd be happy for all your insurances policies for your cars to increase?
        You'd be happy ticking that box stating you had an at fault claim for the next 3-5 years?
        Would you be fine with that? Just shrug and say no biggie?

        If the OP settles directly with the other parties insurance company bypassing their own insurance, then it won't be classed as a at fault 'claim' as no insurance claim was made by the OP, so they don't need to tick any of those boxes, so no insurance increases.

        So yeah in this case, if my options are now limited to settling for <$700 directly with the other parties insurance company, or start some legal process that is going to cost way more than $700 just for the first appointment, then it is a no brainer I would go the settlement path. Of course I would tell the OP to keep pushing back but if backed into a corner, settle directly.

      • jacross on 14/07/2022 - 12:23

        No. My incentives would be very different from the incentives of my insurance company. Assuming OP is giving an accurate picture of things, I understand their motivations completely. But I'm also aware that sometimes justice isn't just and fighting this would be making a choice to bet big for a small payout.

    • donga100 on 13/07/2022 - 09:31
      +2

      There comes a point for businesses where it is easier and more profitable to settle and it sounds like that point was reached a long time ago (particularly for $660).

      Exactly, so you need to make it easier and more profitable for your insurance company to stop asking you to pay the excess. You can do this by refusing to pay and demanding that the matter be taken to small claims court. Most likely your insurance company will then decide to let you off but will still pay the other party for damages. The worst they can do is cancel your insurance.

      Or represent yourself, which would be hilarious.

      Most people represent themselves in small claims court.

      • jacross on 14/07/2022 - 12:25

        Yes and in this case it will be hilarious.

        As for what the insurance company will do…if you say so. I'm very invested in hearing about what happens so hopefully we find out.

        • donga100 on 14/07/2022 - 12:48

          As for what the insurance company will do…if you say so.

          There is no way they are even going to consider mediation, let alone small claims court, over $600 if there is even a smidgen of evidence that their client caused this damage.

          • jacross on 15/07/2022 - 09:35

            @donga100: Well I definitely agree they won't do that.

  • Domingo on 13/07/2022 - 09:30
    +4

    Typically in this kind of scenario, you'll need to be able to demonstrate to the relevant authority (in this case AFCA) that you have attempted to resolve this issue directly with the insurer.

    I would recommend you speak to your insurance company and raise a complaint about the service that you are receiving, which may involve a case manager getting assigned to provide further information and help you resolve the issue - ensure you generate a paper trail through this process so that you can demonstrate their lack of action with evidence. In the somewhat likely event that this process is ineffective, you can then make a complaint to AFCA and use your evidence trail to help them quickly see that your insurance company is not providing you with an effective service.

    Most of my ombudsman experience is in the Telco space, but if the financial services industry processes are at all similar your insurance company will likely fold at this point as the investigation will be more negative to their business than either pushing back on the claim to the other party, or simply absorbing the cost.

    I'd also recommend getting out of dodge with your insurer as who knows what will happen if/when you have your next issue with them, but probably after you've gotten to a resolution on this one.

  • Noblejoker on 13/07/2022 - 11:00
    +2

    Your insurer is not prepared to show sufficient customer service to you to review the claim and deny
    I would withdraw the matter from AAMI and maybe look for a new insurer - all though all 'call centre' type insurers would be similar

    The question is on the other side
    Is Person A still chasing you, is it their insurance company, or a debt collectors service?
    As above with your insurer: given the amount neither their insurer nor a debt collector is going to try very hard to collect $6xx

    Deal with the matter yourself - call their bluff and say you will not pay as you are not at fault and their 'evidence' is rubbish
    It will never go to court and if it did you would have grounds to ask for costs

    In truth the claim has only gone on this long as AAMI keeps talking to them
    Deal with it yourself

  • trapper on 13/07/2022 - 13:04

    Very weird that the police made you exchange details when there was no collision.

    But if this is the truth then just stick to your guns, there was no collision and I'm not paying a cent.

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