APS EL1 Pay Rate - Ask for More?

Wilson Wallace on 24/07/2022 - 14:56
Last edited 24/07/2022 - 18:36 by 1 other user

Basically going for a job at an APS Level EL1 which at its highest pay is roughly 126 I think.

However, the job I’m going for, the median pay in Australia is @ 180k, ranges between 160k and 220k (if your very good), which you can probably negotiate at other public organisations in Australia. I don’t want to be short changed, nor greedy. I’ve been in my field for 13 years so I’ve got lots of experience. I know federal is flexible working, but I’m used to fast pace stress so it doesn’t phase me.

How do I go about negotiating for this? I mean, the pay for EL1 is max 126 at the book level, but does federal move a lot with pay? Am I wasting my time asking for pay rate for my specific job? I have heard they provide allowances on top to match the market pay rate.

Thanks for your advice

Education & Work

Comments

  • dtc on 24/07/2022 - 15:26
    +9

    The government only pays within the band. The only negotiation you can have is within the band. You cannot get above the band.

    As to allowances, look at the enterprise bargaining agreement for the department, it will be online somewhere. If your specific job has an allowance then you can ask for the allowance (although if you havent been offered one then there probably isnt one).

    The APS is not a private sector company that sets its own wages based on each person and is flexible and can 'overpay' to get who they want etc. They are only allowed to pay what is in the EBA, there is no flexibility whatsoever.

    • Wilson Wallace on 24/07/2022 - 16:10

      With my previous role working for vic government, I only got paid within the pay bracket of the health service level, but was allowed an extra $30 per hour as an allowance on top of that.

      • dust on 24/07/2022 - 17:53

        On what basis did you get the extra $30 per hour?

        • Wilson Wallace on 24/07/2022 - 18:10

          Based on the role, experience and market rates. How does the government expect to keep people to stay if they pay 15 years ago rates?

          • netjock on 24/07/2022 - 21:50
            +3

            @Wilson Wallace: Government don't expect to be keeping people based on monetary reward. I think that is why they choose to pay less.

    • MELso on 24/07/2022 - 19:33
      +1

      That's not quite true. You can negotiate to be paid above the band if the head of the agency agrees (I know - I went in as an EL1.3 at one agency). The catch is that you stay there until the band catches up…

  • 7ekn00 on 24/07/2022 - 15:39
    +3

    As above, it's practically impossible to "negotiate" with government employment :/

    Best you can do is with allowances and salary sacrifices!

  • bemybubble on 24/07/2022 - 15:50

    Isn’t APS private schooling?

  • illusion99 on 24/07/2022 - 15:55
    +1

    APS= Australian Public Service

  • CodeXD on 24/07/2022 - 16:16
    +7

    If you are looking to get a range of 160k to 220k as an EL1, then APS is not the place for you. Perhaps EL2 however most of those are managerial roles and will require you to lead several teams. Technical EL2 is still a thing but you need to really know your stuff.

    APS comes with the flexible working arrangement, job security, and 15.4% super.

    • CheapskateQueen on 24/07/2022 - 22:19
      +1

      220 for EL2? PFFT no where near 200k

      • CodeXD on 24/07/2022 - 22:21
        +1

        160k is possible tho.

  • dominator293 on 24/07/2022 - 16:27
    +8

    No chance being able to negotiate outside that pay bracket of the EL1. To get the pay you're looking for, you'd need to be at Band 1 or higher which you aren't going to jump straight into. Best bet is to 'contract' if you want that sort of pay, because it's a definite pay cut going to the public service. At the same time, 13yrs experience won't guarantee you an EL1 position, the competition is pretty tough at that level and the public service often tends to favour staff who have been acting in said position (which you won't know unless you call the contact and ask if anyone is acting in it) or up and comers at the APS6 level who have been showing their worth after many years.

    Just something to keep in mind because if you go into an interview asking for 40-60k more than the EL1 position offers, you'll be laughed out of the building…fairly and equitably of course ;-)

  • shmoney on 24/07/2022 - 16:49
    +1

    Nah, you won't be able to negotiate anything close to that as an APS.

    Only way they'll be able to pay out of the band for any role is if it was a labour hire gig (contracting).

    • Wilson Wallace on 24/07/2022 - 17:46

      So your essentially going in as a worker with flexi hours. 37.5 hrs per week, 15.4% super and pay not inline with what the market is. I guess your also unsackable

      • BlueGlass on 24/07/2022 - 18:15
        +3

        It's a well known issue that the APS does not pay market rates, and never will.
        However, they absolutely do hire contract staff to directly embed into technical teams (often entire team can be contractors). De facto long term (like, years and years) arrangements for 'daily' contractors is also very common, typical contracts span from 3 months to a year and usually roll over.
        The APS has deep pockets, just not for actual APS/EL staff.

      • netjock on 24/07/2022 - 21:55

        essentially going in as a worker with flexi hours. 37.5 hrs per week, 15.4% super

        I think you won't find any employer offering all 3. Plus this employer won't go bankrupt.

      • Quantumcat on 25/07/2022 - 10:04

        You don't get flexitime as EL, only APS6 and below. You might get time off in lieu

  • sane on 24/07/2022 - 18:37
    +8

    Firstly, I think the pay is currently ~$122k for top of the scale EL1. Even if you could negotiate for a top of the scale, you would only get inflation rises from then on. And going in at the top is less than likely, for obvious reasons.

    Note, you need to add on top the 15.4% super contribution, which does make a difference to the total package. However, yes, they massively underpay in certain jobs - which comes of them trying to set a common pay scale across different types of job - and often underestimating the grade they would need to be at to be paying the market rate.

    For instance they might try and classify a deep learning AI engineer at EL1, on the basis of their responsibility etc. If they were to pay properly, at the market rate, that might mean a salary of $210k - and more than the SES-1 that was running the whole department.

    You go into the APS for other things than the money - which means most people who would expect the actual pay to be ~$180k tend to be set up as contractors, going in and earning via that route.

    And yes, they know its bloody stupid, but it simpler than the way they would have to bump all those SES-1,2,3 salaries to not have them revolt over a lowly engineer getting more money than they do.

  • Vote for Pedro on 24/07/2022 - 20:38
    -3

    You can only ask. But, remember this, if you ask for more and they say no and you still take the job, your reputation is trashed.

    • CodeXD on 24/07/2022 - 22:26
      +2

      if you ask for more and they say no and you still take the job, your reputation is trashed

      lolwut? Why would that do anything for your reputation? Pay negotiation is part of every job but there's only so high you can push for in APS within that classification. There's no harm in asking, worse that can happen is they say no. Taking the job means you regard the other benefits the job provide other than monetary gains.

      • Vote for Pedro on 25/07/2022 - 07:51
        +1

        So if you are taking the job for other reasons, why are you asking for more?

        You: Hi, you only pay a maximum of $125,000 for this role. My skills and expertise in this field ordinarily commands a market rate of $155,000. Can you reevaluate your offer.

        Them: lol, no

        You: mmmk, I’ll take it

  • Benoffie on 24/07/2022 - 21:07

    Welcome to the public service where you are overworked and underpaid.

    • capslock on 24/07/2022 - 22:50
      +1

      That's exactly how I feel working in the private sector.

      • shmoney on 24/07/2022 - 23:06

        Grass is always greener on the other side

    • djkelly69 on 24/07/2022 - 23:05
      +2

      Obviously everyone's job is different, but I don't think you will find many people that agree with that sentiment.

      • Vote for Pedro on 25/07/2022 - 07:54

        Probably those who have never worked in the public sector. Currently earning 35% more in private for same role plus there are performance bonuses. Oh, and I’m working less.

        • CodeXD on 25/07/2022 - 08:53

          You've made it very clear you have never worked in the public sector with all your irrelevant comments here.

          • Vote for Pedro on 25/07/2022 - 11:48

            @CodeXD: 4+ years in nsw public sector. 3+ in Vic and circa 2 in APS. With private sector in between. But nope never worked public sector.

  • morse on 25/07/2022 - 02:17

    It’s well known that the APS wages are lower than the equivalent role in state government. However they often bump roles into a higher band for these reason (before it’s advertised). Eg It might just be a project manager role (in terms of function of the role) but they classify it as a project director to be able to pay someone the going rate for project managers.

    So be clear that the role you’re applying for is actually at the equivalent level to what you’ve been working at and not a step back in terms of duties. You might want to clarify the size of the team, how many line reports you have and who you report to, what financial delegation you’ll have etc. there’s very little negotiation room once you accept a role at that level.

  • HardQuiz on 25/07/2022 - 09:40
    -1

    Yes, you can negotiate and they can get you an exemption.

    Present your case based on your current salary.

    Good luck!

  • stirlo on 25/07/2022 - 09:58
    +2

    Some agencies EBAs have the ability to offer an IFA (Individual Flexibility Arrangement) which can allow the pay to exceed what's in the EBA bands. But this would normally only be offered if they wanted you desperately and had seen your skills firsthand in the role (say transitioning from a contractor at a department to an APS position).

    But even then, asking for 50% more pay because that's where the market is will make them immediately question why they were making an offer to someone who clearly has no understanding of the realities of public service employment. Potentially you may get 10-15% more with an IFA but you'll still find the salary well below market rates.

    Why would you apply there if you didn't value the other perks of working for APS (37.5h week, stable flexible hours, job security, extra super, etc)?

  • Slippage on 25/07/2022 - 13:41

    If median pay is $180k, why are you looking at the EL1 role?

    • Wilson Wallace on 25/07/2022 - 14:24

      Because if I can get it to the 165, I will happily proceed with it. Doing more research, it looks like the Australia gov can’t hold people in the role as they keep churning over people due to $$. They aren’t paying up.

  • Drpepper666 on 26/07/2022 - 18:27
    +2

    If you can get paid so much elsewhere why are you even considering public service?

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