Have read a few reviews, particularly regarding repair-ability. The concept of being able to easily upgrade or replace failed components seems to be a more sustainable model.
Has anyone ordered one, or even had one delivered?
What was the ordering/purchasing experience like?
Website https://frame.work/au/en
Ifixit review https://www.ifixit.com/News/51614/framework-laptop-teardown-…
I have been tempted but the pricing isn't quite right to make it worth jumping in. While in theory upgrades down the line is a great idea, the prices for some of these like motherboard and CPU replacement are more than a whole new laptop. There's something nice about getting a brand new machine after 5 years too so something else to consider.
The other annoyance for me is that the expansion cards are single port each only so you're quite limited. It's no different to carrying tons of dongles for things, just that they're internal now. So now we carry a bag of internal cards? Doesn't really make sense to me when they're all USB-C anyway. Might as well just get a do-it-all USB-C dock.
https://frame.work/au/en/marketplace/expansion-cards
Oh also, no touchscreen display. Seems silly but once you get used to it on Surface Pro and work Dell laptop, you really do get used to it as a very handy feature.
I also can't really see a reason to upgrade other parts like speakers or touchpad or webcam or cover kits or wi-fi module. We tend to stick to these for several years just fine. It's nice to be able to I suppose but am I really going to? Don't think so. Maybe if they fail but don't remember last time that happened.
I've got to admit the concept of an easily replaced battery and main storage, as opposed to the soldered on plus glue, caught my attention.
I agree about the ports vs a USB-C dock.
Oh also, no touchscreen display
That's the ONLY thing holding me back right now. As soon as they're made (the mobo's already have the required internal ports available for touch) then I'm pulling the trigger.
The lack of a touchscreen is all that stops me putting Framework at the top of my list. Fortunately my laptop (Thinkpad) is still going strong so I don't need a replacement yet.
I am quite liking the expansion cards so far as:
You should know that Linus will shill anything with a straight face, even outright scams. Probably most of us would in his position. Who doesn't want to be rich?
Can I interest you in a screwdriver that has 'LTT' written on the bottom, for quadruple the price?
Linux is so fringe and niche that I doubt most people mistake LTT as Tovalds. Plus anyone can tell who I am talking about by clicking OP link and seeing Linus on that page shilling this product.
Is it still called shilling if he's an investor in Framework though?
It's not like he doesn't know anything about the product and is using it as a pump & dump scheme.
Unlike, say, complaining about GPU shortages on one hand then taking money from NiceHash on the other to promote crypto mining…
@Switchblade88: Shouldn't being an investor be even more of a reason to shill something you don't actually believe in?
@AustriaBargain: You’d be stupid to invest in something you didn’t believe in. If it’s a scam then framework will be running off with the money. Even if he’s somehow benefitting financially, his reputation is going to suffer. Linus isn’t stupid, a short term gain isn’t worth sacrificing his brand over
@FireRunner: I think pokie machines are a scam that prey on vulnerable people, but investing in and advocating for a pokie machine company would still make me money. I don't believe in war, but investing in Lockheed Martin right now could make me money with them ramping up weapon production in preparation for war. For as long as there have been reputations people have been sacrificing them to make money.
@AustriaBargain: Linus is at a stage of great growth for his business. It would be suicide to try peddle a scam product.
I don’t think this is an extremely profitable endeavour as you imply. It appeals to a niche that value upgradeability and repairability which isn’t the average consumer.
Also I haven’t seen anything to indicate that he is the type of character to try pull something like this off.
He does accept sponsorships but that doesn’t automatically make him a “shill”. He’s broken off deals with companies he didn’t endorse. An example is TunnelBear VPN after McAfee acquired them.
@FireRunner: Well Linus is a boob then, if he actually believed this "molecular scanner" he was promoting wasn't a huge scam, how many of his fans wasted money on this kickstarter and just what did Linus get in exchange for promoting this crap? https://youtu.be/VHjmlQdzpW4?t=64
@AustriaBargain: It sounds like lack of due diligence rather than a malicious attempt from my brief review.
But let’s say he did accept a bribe from this kickstarter to get endorsement. It was done carefully enough so that he could say he got duped too.
With the framework investment he’s a lot more involved. Its a tech product so he can’t claim ignorance. He’s a stakeholder so there’s potential legal trouble if it If it really is a scam. He won’t be getting off easily if this is some elaborate scam.
Also the company is actually delivering where they said they would. It hasn’t backflipped or done anything shady so your allegations are unsubstantial.
I honestly thought LTT does their branding to look uncannily close to Linux in order to look more techy.
That said, I agree with you that 99% of people don't even know Linux exists and so the attempted marketing probably doesn't work.
Will definitely be on my list of options after owning a Lenovo, Dell and HP. It's a shame they don't have AMD options.
Been tried before and the companies gave up after 6-12 months or went bankrupt. Some lasted longer, but after a few years the upgrades were not available for old laptops so it did not work and eventually the companies stopped doing up gradable laptops.
This was a long time ago.
Be aware that Framework only started producing laptops in June 2022
They only started in Australia this year, but the fact that we get anything is a good sign since we are a niche/small market in worldwide terms.
That's when they started on 12th Gen. Their second version.
From the article you linked:
"We're happy to share that we're now in the final steps of setting up and testing our manufacturing site in Taiwan for the new Framework Laptop with 12th Gen Intel® Core™ processors. We started development of this product upgrade shortly after we launched the original Framework Laptop"
That’s definitely a risk when buying essentially a startup’s product. The company can fold very early on.
They have survived to produce at least one revision but it’s still not a proven brand yet
If you can afford to purchase something that may not work or requires some patience then it looks interesting. The Openmoko was a promising product that required a lot of patience. It then required a heart transplant that no-one was interested in. However, the software for this appears to be reasonable. I did not look into the Bios - hopefully it's COTS.
They purchased the UEFI firmware from InsydeH20 from Insyde software and are customising it as needed.
The embedded controller is a fork of the open source embedded controller software used on ChromeOS.
I like the idea, but the things that hold me off:
You can get most of the benefit with a Thinkpad, just not the gimmicky modules.
Except not the main benefit of upgradeability and repairability.
Thinkpads have been end user repairable for years, with no “warranty void” stickers to stop you opening it and fairly easy to replace ram, batteries and storage (admittedly less so on the super thin devices).
You can’t reasonably upgrade main boards.
But how does upgrading a main board for virtually the cost of a replacement machine help the environment or the owner?
If I upgrade a T series Thinkpad, somebody else gets the old machine (though the order is usually me buying the older machine from an upgrader).
If I upgrade the main board on this, I toss out the old main board - no scope for re-use.
Yes Thinkpads used to be great. It was not just fairly easy, it was dead easy to open back panel and change stuff.
Dell also allows you to open up your laptop, ease of doing so varies on the model but no “warranty void” sticker nonsense. I’m sure there’s other manufacturers that don’t block users from opening up their machine too.
Framework has much upgradeable options compared to competitors. The screen and keyboard are other parts that are user replaceable/upgradeable.
If I upgrade the main board on this, I toss out the old main board - no scope for re-use.
There’s an option to get a case for the old mainboard and use it like a desktop. I think it may need a bios update so it can boot without the onboard display.
@mskeggs: Yeah it’s a smart way to repurpose old main boards.
It’s a contrast to an old Dell XPS laptop I have that has a faulty hinge (because of poor design not misuse). The display needs physical support or it will rip off the chassis.
I though I’ll just remove the display and hook it up to an external monitor instead. Good idea until I found it refuses to post without it
I just got my Framework laptop to upgrade from my old ThinkPad and agree that there are important unanswered questions as to whether it will be a net benefit to the environment. Full lifecycle analysis is a very complicated analysis.
They have designed the mainboard to be reusable as a stand alone machine though and it could be resold to upgrade other Framework laptops.
Apple may actually have the better environmental approach by:
It all comes down to whether repairability and upgradability will overall reduce impact over time. NFI.
@AnotherHuman: Apple’s approach is not good. The hardware is locked down so end users have no option to repair themselves and instead have to go through Apple. They of course encourage people to just upgrade instead of repair.
Having everything so integrated means of anything fails then basically the whole device needs to be thrown out. As you noted, it also reduces useable life by having unupgradeable parts.
The order for least environmental impact is reduce, reuse and recycle. It seems Apple’s approach is prioritise the last one.
Framework’s has it the right way around.
@FireRunner: @FireRunner
Reduce, Reuse, Repair, and Recycle are the ordering for least environmental impact.
My quick analysis of Apple vs Framework approach from an environmental point of view:
Overall, we don't have the data to know which approach is better long term from an environmental standpoint, but certainly seems more likely to be Apple at this point due to their scale.
Framework certainly are more empowering to a technical end user though. At any rate, I thought I would give them a go. Will see how it goes…
@AnotherHuman: Fair points raised. I don’t know how the longevity of a framework vs that of a MacBook compared. Both in terms of durability and useability as the product ages.
I do feel that things like soldered RAM and storage can’t be good for long term use. If any fail, the whole board is more or less worthless. I don’t think anyone would try desoldering bad components to salvage the board. Also on useability, if it becomes insufficient then we’ll you no recourse but to buy a whole new laptop
Upgrade parts impact: -Framework loss
I don’t think this bullet point is fair. If you’re upgrading just one component then you could see it as a net gain of not having to produce a whole new laptop. Which is point in favour of framework not against
@FireRunner: @FireRunner
Upgrade parts impact: -Framework loss
I don’t think this bullet point is fair. If you’re upgrading just one component then you could see it as a net gain of not having to produce a whole new laptop. Which is point in favour of framework not against
This bullet point is just about the direct impact of upgrade parts. They have an environmental footprint and the Framework approach creates demand for upgrade components.
The bullet points in their favour of Extended product life and Reuse: Used upgrade parts could then offset the footprint of those upgrade parts. What the net balance is, NFI.
Considering a new GPU and CPU with board costs as much as an entire laptop it's a bit of a turn off, fantastic idea in theory just wish the big players would adapt this style would reduce so much E waste in the future.
They all actually went backwards. Don't everybody still remember the removable battery and relatively easy to replace memory and HDD in the old laptops not so long ago?
Nearly all laptops have replaceable storage. Memory you need to be careful. Battery isn’t easily swappable anymore which is a shame.
GPUs used to upgradeable in a few laptop models with the standard MXM GPU design
I got mine last week. The ordering and delivery process were very smooth.
Who did they use for shipping? Was shipping included in the RRP?
Fedex. Yep, everything inclusive in the price.
Thanks, useful to know.
No because they haven't done any deals worthy of ozb front page..
Truth is I'm interested, but don't have the need for it as I just got my desktop 3070 setup and the Surface Pro 4 still works for portable machine
Too much scope for error. Dust and dirt will get in, connectors may get worn, cards and plugs not pushed in completely, … and today's computer needs are totally different from when we started computers and needed to upgrade as prices of RAM went down and video cards were changing monthly… now we just need a decent laptop that is reliable and light and fast and that stays that way for at least 3 years. After 5 years you will be super happy to upgrade and get a new one without scratches and dents!!!
I prefer to upgrade my laptop every 5 years and pass my old one down to family. While it would be nice to have the ability to customise ports, it isn't worth paying a premium for.
I try to be careful with my laptop but it is inevitable to get scratches or scuff marks on it from daily use; such as the touchpad or chassis where you rest left palm to use WASD keys.
After watching the LTT video (wow what an ass kiss and full of crap) I think they are trying to hide the fact that it's pretty much the same as most laptops (maybe not apple) and behind gimmick marketing. It is like a laptop to repair for beginners with all them QR codes with instructions, which is nice.
I have been repairing laptops for 25-odd years, I repair home and business model laptops. I am yet to come across a battery that was glued in (I don't repair apple). Older laptops had a switch on the outside of the laptop you could just push and out pops the battery module, very convenient; this one follows the current design in which you have to open the stupid thing.
The type-a port, feels like it requires specific modules of their designed size; maybe if it hits popularity people can make cheaper modules? Didn't find much on making your own modules for it. Doesn't look easy to open and put your own things inside and there is no 'empty cartridge' available on their website. We have had more generic expansion cards in the past.
Linus spent an overly long time talking up the "cable management" of the wifi cords, which every laptop does.
The claim of all motherboards will be the same shape and size is ok, that is one thing that manufacturers change on purpose but sometimes with good reason. The framework design does not appear to have good cooling, the laptop itself doesn't even have MXM slot on any available mainboard to add in a laptop gpu. There doesn't appear to be a thunderbolt port for a decent eGPU. CPU is still soldered to the motherboard in the quest for being a "thin" laptop (which personally I'm over this garbage paper-thin gimmick.
Replacement parts are stupid expensive. You can easily order replacement mainboards for any laptop, generally ones that just use onboard video are on the cheaper end; especially older ones. Heck even kiddos metabox/clevo 'gaming' laptop is cheaper in parts to repair than this (but older). I guess if they stay in business the promise of the same rectangle mainboard could end up working in their favour? After they bring production costs down maybe?
Magnets all around the screen? Just no. Not a good idea.
I think if you want a laptop that is easy and cheap to repair you should stick to a generic brand (like clevo) or business grade (IBM Thinkpads or Dell Latituides). Business laptops are just as easy to repair and are built solid and much better priced currently, especially the second-hand market.
What I want is a laptop (not thin, just portable) that I can shove any mATX motherboard in, with an external gpu hooked up. This is far from what I hoped.
My opinion on the product could be subject to change if I ever have to repair one, some laptops are just an absolute prick to open up (looking at you Asus) others are a breeze. But the older business laptops are far easier.
Socketed laptop CPUs and MXM GPUs have been dead for years. There’s not really any option for framework but to use soldered CPUs.
It’s not a gaming laptop so no dedicated GPU. It does support thunderbolt afaik so eGPU enclosure should be an option.
The hope of many of the community is that they do develop a Framework gaming laptop with an upgradeable GPU. It wouldn’t be MXM since that’s been dead but a swappable GPU module would get gamers interested, myself included.
I have an $50 Antec tower case with 4x 5.25" bays and 6x 3.5" bays. Initially it was housing my main PC Core2Duo then upgraded to a i5 ddr3 then upgraded again to ddr4 system and now it's my NAS that houses 8x HDDs. Over the years the case proved to be extremely flexible and upgradable. Thanks to the fact that motherboard mounting holes and atx PSU remained the same, so internally it's completely upgraded.
With laptop however, I will upgrade at most the RAM and SSD. Maybe the M2 WiFi if I'm feeling bored. A laptop is something I use, feel and carry everyday. When I get bored of it I may buy a different brand just because it has a different screen rez, form factor/ratio. Maybe nicer paint or finishes. Or perhaps magnesium rather than plastic.
I don't mind reusing my desktop PC case for years, it sits there on its own and I never have to touch or feel it. It looks old but there's no scratches or wear on it like a 10 years old laptop. I want a new laptop not a worn laptop case with new insides. So framework doesn't make sense to me.
I keep looking at Frameworks every now and then but I'm still shy about whether it's something to buy. (Am I'm grumpy that the expansion card for the USB-A only turns it into one slot and not two slots.)
That said, checked the website linked there and there's an awful lot of "Coming soon" plastered all over everything in their shop…