I live in Melbourne in an area with HFC.
I used to be Aussie Broadband from 2019 to 2021.
I'm now with Superloop to save some $$$
I didn't do much gaming from 2019 to 2021, but have since mid 2022.
Since gaming, I've noticed a lot of network drop outs.
I don't know if I'm just noticing it more, now that i'm gaming, or is it ISP.
I'm considering going back to ABB.
Thanks in advance,
Plaking
OP should tell us which plans they are on.
Gaming requires high end plans
Has OP changed address or any equipment?
Of course it does. Superloop are meant to be on the same epic tier as ABB though so that seems odd. Might be worth trying ABB again or checking your router/connections etc.
What did Superloop support say when you contacted them about the drop outs?
Talk to Ozb first.
And jump to the conclusion it's the ISP causing the drop outs instead of the real culprit which would be the NBN equipment in the suburb or the cabling or the router.
Pretty much, I had a similar issue with iinet, contact them, they knew there was a issue ( funny that they want us to contact them first), then NBN tech came and fixed the issue.
Does ISP Matter When It Comes to Network Stability?
Yes. However, other things like what router/modem you use, or Ethernet vs WiFi (2.4g or 5g) also matters. Even down to what game you play.
I used to play genshin on and would get 160ms~ ping to Asia server. Then ISP changed something so the path to aws is longer, and this increased ping to 220ms~.
I was going to mention they might have different routes, but wasn't sure if that is old news with NBN. Doesn't some ISP market a VPN as a, "GAMING VPN!!!1!!OMG"?
My PC is connected to the router via ethernet.
When there is network drop out, the internet on my wifi connected phone also drops out.
Resetting the NBN HFC modem during a drop out doesn't make a difference, as in the internet is still down, but the local network is fine.
I'm not fussed about ping, I'm just playing a MMORPG so it's annoying to DC and return 20mins later and the character is dead.
Does it only disconnect when you are playing games?
Don't forget the POI will also have an impact. Not all POIs have the same traffic/bandwidth/customers connected which can make a difference varying on the ISP.
Spot on, with all the variables at play one of the key variable is relationship between RSP & NBN for connection provisioning, it can depend upon RSP's CVC allocation in POI and it's setup, what free port gets assigned with what speed tier RSP ordered via NBN.
Unfortunately, RSP's have to rely a lot on NBN to do the right thing for the placed order for your connection to be fully 'compliant' in terms of speed and latency.
There can be times when NBN order gets stuck in limbo or gets provisioned incorrectly with another lot of variables.
However, moving across RSP's is beneficial in understanding overall health of your own network configuration to then start ruling out at RSP or NBN end by initiating the discussion with RSP and they are then bound to follow NBN troubleshooting protocol by getting direct connection speed etc. before taking further steps that help with actual resolution of the matter.
In the end, for lower latency you give up slightly on stability of the speed and vice versa.
Then RSP's peering interconnection to pipe networks ocean fiber and using looking glass traceroute is another key variable for achieving low latency to gaming server of choice if its located internationally.
Are you gaming over wifi? What is your router?
Do you have a Mesh Setup?
No, ethernet. Local network is fine during drop out.
Dropouts could be coming from anything in between you and the game server. Yes the ISP is a part of that, so it could be the ISP. It could also be:
- Your home networking equipment (modem/router/cabling/pc)
- NBN Infrastructure
- Game server infrastructure
The ISP provides the connection from the NBN to "the internet". The ISP will influence routing based on paid/negotiated BGP peering. So some ISPs will be better than others with lower latency to certain parts of the world, and higher bandwidth across certain links. Superloop and ABB are widely considered among the best.
OzB can not tell you definitively what the cause of your problems are.
This is all it can say.
It is totally plausible that if you are now gaming a lot more then if there are any issues with your equipment they are likely to manifest in problems. Exactly the same as if your car isn't totally rock solid reliable it will break down more often if you drive it harder and more often.
It is possible that one ISP might give you more problems than another, but not very likely when both of them are amongst the better ones.
I get lots of minor drop outs on HFC too. Changing providers didn't help (been with both Aussie and Superloop). I've had NBN involved but hasn't resolved the issue.
I went through this too. It took detailed logging over many weeks to demonstrate to NBN that the service was in fact dropping even if the flaps counter was not increasing. That counter only increases if there is a session timeout which requires a lengthy period of no connectivity.
That means NBN effectively can’t see short periods of no connectivity.
Eventually NBN sent out a team on the 3rd/4th go and discovered the HFC lead in from the street needed replacement. It’s now solid since.
It took a script running 24/7 to record all dropped pings every 5 seconds and when the service recovered to get this done. ABB also separately recorded pings to my local router (and required me to have the router to respond to WAN ping requests to do to) to help diagnose.
NBN otherwise didn’t want to know about it.
Yeah That is NBN policy. Unless you have a specific amount of Dropouts per day on HFC or FTTN or FTTC NBN Co aren't interested and consider it not to be an issue.
In terms of the ISP affecting the NBN connectivity, yes it does as each provider is required to have their own networks between the NBN POI all 121 of them and the rest of the world, the only bit NBN handle is the handing off usually at a Datacentre between the POIs and the providers network and the part at the other end the connection from the street to the Node and then from the node to the POI.
Everything else network wise is down to your ISP and the transit and other network agreements they have in place.
HFC is considered one of the better technolgies by NBN as it can do greater then 250Mbps speeds but it runs into the same or similar issues as FTTN if the lead in from the street to your property is damaged. So i'd nag Superloop support over it, that is if the issue isn't with Superloops international network which is congestion prone at times.
Or the POI if they haven't provisioned enough CVC, or if NBNCo have messed up and not allocated the CVC they do have.
I don’t know what you’re talking about Chaddy. This isn’t about CVC or peak time congestion as my post makes clear - it’s about HFC lead ins (which are now in some cases 30 years old - like mine was before it was replaced) having serious issues which are difficult to diagnose. To be abundantly clear - the “lead in” runs from NBN equipment in the street to the house.
Don’t forget that HFC has its roots in the Telstra Cable network which was installed over 30 years ago. Coax in conduit doesn’t last forever. NBN ought to know this.
Your platitudes about HFC generally being stable are not helpful to those having serious HFC reliability issues - which do in fact exist - and which NBN brushes off under their stupid and seriously inadequate “X flaps in 24 hours before we investigate” policy.
There is deliberate underreporting of HFC reliability issues based upon how NBN records and deals with “flaps”.
Not once have I ever experienced issues with CVC or international connectivity with a mainstream RSP like Telstra, Superloop or ABB. It’s always been the NBN end before you get to the POI unless it’s perfectly clear from a trace route, alternative looking glass, or public CVC graphs.
It’s commonly (and erroneously) suggested that NBN is never at fault. This must be rejected. It’s said it is always the RSP. This is easily demonstrated to be flawed. Consider customers who churn & discover their HFC service remains unstable. The only commonality in that case is the user’s local router (which can be removed in the troubleshooting process) or NBN to POI. Once the router is removed from the equation it’s entirely NBN’s responsibility. One that they shirk time and time again.
@kipps: Hi Yeah I am aware that HFC can be a bit of a dogs breakfast at times, your fine if your on a good section of it, its like FTTN and FTTC in that way in that if its not pissing down rain or if your not on old Copper your fine but if your lead in is damaged your kind of screwed till NBN Co replaces it. If you spend enough money with your ISP around the $300 or $400 a month mark depending on speed NBN Co will rip out the HFC and give you NBNEE Enterprise Ethernet which is their full business fibre product.
But you need to be running a business for that.
It just seams like NBNCo are focused heavily on the business and government side of things where as normal consumers just get left with whatever they end up with.
But if your running a business from home you can order NBNEE.
The install for that is free as well.
In terms of CVC i've ran into issues before with some of the Vocus owned ISP where they ordered more CVC and it wasn't provisioned.
Also Superloop did have international congestion a few years ago which made some resellers leave Superloop. But that is another story.
Superloop do peer though so that helps as some providers use them for a lot of stuff.
Some network engineers are picky when it comes to choosing providers.
If you go for either a gaming plan or a more business grade ISP you'll be fine, Telstra can be hit and miss, as they don't always flag issues with NBN Co when they happen and customer support from them is lacking at best generally most of the other ISPs have far better support.
The mobile network can be down for days at a time and Telstra don't care.
Luckily they still have a few good employees left to fix issues otherwise the country wouldn't be able to get much done.
As for TPG, network operators are complaining about them every week I reckon joke of a company, good network left over from AAPT for the business side of things, as in their business grade stuff is good not so convinced on the residencial side though.
A bit like Vocus when its online and working its great when the network goes down your kind of screwed.
That is actually one good thing with Telstra is the 4G backup for home based connections, providing the core network is up.
@Chaddy: My original post was from an ISP perspective but personally I think they should of just done FTTP in the first place at least in the larger regional centers and in the major cities. Instead of this multi technology mix which makes it harder for consumers and more expensive plus harder for providers to troubleshoot problems.
Yes your ISP is a variable when it comes to ping (latency), lag (jitter), and packet loss while gaming.
The variables are:
- Home Network (Home Computer, Home Cabliing, Home Wifi, Home Router/Modem)
- NBN 'access network' (HFC segment, NBN POI, NBN Backhaul)
- ISP (Backhaul, IP Transit, Peering)
- Game Server Network (Network, Game Server)
Your ISP is an important variable when it comes to your gaming experience and can influence your ping (latency), lag (jitter), and packet loss. Watch this video to learn more.
I have observed (with three different NBN providers over 2+ years) that the stability/dropouts differ with each. As highlighted by others this could be NBN itself and hence unable to attribute it to the ISP.
Do not want to hijack the thread., but my observation with mobile ISP clearly differs from one to other. Currently with Coles Mobile. Though most of them use Optus network the experience with Coles is very bad. Areas where I had proper reception in the past no longer work with Coles. Once I am out of the fixed tenure not going back to them..
Mobile connectivity has nothing to do with NBNCo That is all up to the individual mobile carrier Telstra Optus etc.
Coles just resell the Sim cards they have no control over the network what so ever. Its basically just an extra revenue stream for them.
Same as the insurance and other products.
NBN do have fixed Wireless but that isn't mobile its 5G delivered from a tower and that tower then has back hall to the closest NBN POI.
That back hall is delivered by Fibre.
Also Fixed Wireless from NBN is only in certain regional areas.
One easy diagnosis on HFC is if you have blinking lights on your modem, more than likely you have an NBN problem and not an ISP problem.
Also note, Superloop have what looks like a NSW wide scheduled outage on the early hours of Tue 10 Jan. This will be ISP related, probably a big equipment upgrade.
as everything else, the same thing applies here. yes the wholesaler is one NBN Co but the ISP buy things in different packages/plan/etc etc from them.
can be with less bandwith, or something else i imagine there are many customisation packages for sale/to choose from. so some ISP may want to target high end market, some targetting budget customers, some choose to make business in the middle, etc
the ISP will not disclose this to us so yeah, we can get different thing from different ISP
and obviously, the customer services. some outsourced to India etc, some local