Why My Coffee Tastes Watery?

AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 10:20
Last edited 19/02/2023 - 10:22

Hi OzBaristas,

There is a cafe near my place and they produce very good coffee, to save money I was trying to make the same coffee at home. I bought coffee beans from the cafe and the beans were one week old. However, the coffee I made at home was very watery and no near the cafe quality. I was not expecting the same quality as the cafe, but the coffee I made tasted like shit at best.

Equipment:
Breville Coffee and Spice Grinder
Delonghi Dedica Arte Manual Coffee Machine
My compact kitchen couldn't fit a big coffee machine, even though the 40% Delonghi deal was very tempting but I had to get a small coffee machine

Coffee Beans:
Five Senses Hi Fidelity Blend (same blend used by the cafe)

How did I make my coffee:
Grind, tamp, attach the filter to the coffee machine, and then press the start button. Coffee machine was set to use default settings (35ml for one shot, medium water hardness and medium temperature)

I tried to grind the coffee to coarse (~ 10 seconds) and fine (~ 20 seconds) but there was not much difference in the taste

I was wondering if the bigger coffee machine could make a difference, but not sure what's the difference between the big machine, and the small machine with separate grinder and tamper. Does the big machine have more advanced coffee extract technology than the small machine?

Cheers

Food & Grocery Coffee

Comments

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 19/02/2023 - 10:32

    It'll be your tamping. Watch YT for advice.

  • Hellfire on 19/02/2023 - 10:35
    +14

    That is a terrible grinder and may be the problem. Have you tried some pre ground coffee?

    • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 10:38

      Yes I did! Before I bought the grinder I was using pre-grinded Five Senses coffee, and it tasted bad so I decided to buy a grinder but there was no improvement.

      • diddy50 on 19/02/2023 - 10:52

        Try tamping harder or differently, you'll waste a bit of bean, but you'll get there!

      • Hellfire on 19/02/2023 - 10:59

        I have the same machine (older version) and get good coffee from it. I think it's probably a grind problem but could be tamper related but not as likely due to the pressurised basket.

        Some more q's,

        Was the preground stuff watery too? Or just didn't like the taste?
        Does the shot have crema?
        Have you tried grinding for even longer?

        Here are some things that I've done:

        Only use the double shot basket and the double shot button. I've actually programmed the button to draw longer but default is fine.

        • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 11:20

          Was the preground stuff watery too? Or just didn't like the taste?
          It was watery too, tasted like bitter water and no flavour/aroma

          Does the shot have crema?
          Yes but minimal, nearly none

          Have you tried grinding for even longer?
          Not yet but I will try tomorrow

          • Hellfire on 19/02/2023 - 11:43

            @AussieBogan: Are you using the right basket? I recommend the double shot

            • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 11:45

              @Hellfire: I was using the one-shot basket for one shot, maybe I should use the two-shot basket for one shot?

              • Hellfire on 19/02/2023 - 11:56

                @AussieBogan: It still should work with the single and not be watery. The double will just be stronger

    • Daniel Plainview on 19/02/2023 - 13:46
      +6

      @AussieBogan

      This is your issue - and I will explain why. It's not a 'grinder', it's a chopper - using unless I'm mistaken a spinning blade, rather than a pair of burrs to make the material smaller.

      This means when you place beans in it you're getting lots of variation in the particle size - so your extracts are never going to work.

      Either get a better burr grinder, a decent hand grinder, or buy pre-ground coffee - the last one is the worst option by far - so should be avoided.

      You might think this is a snob view - and your 'grinder' is fine - but read up on why these super cheap spice 'grinders' are horrendous choices for making espresso coffee .

      • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 14:38

        Thank you

      • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 14:57

        Will something like this work https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/314372951324
        This looks like an actual grinder, not a chopper. Or I have to get those expensive ones?

        • sumyungguy on 19/02/2023 - 15:06

          I think the answer lies in how many coffees a day do you expect to make? And how much of a coffee snob are you? It may be that you have the wrong espresso machine, not necessarily just the wrong grinder… BTW, you can make a pigeon pair

          • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 15:10

            @sumyungguy: Usually one cup per day at home for breakfast, once I get to the office I will use the coffee machine in the office for the rest of the day.

            • sumyungguy on 19/02/2023 - 15:19
              +1

              @AussieBogan: Same for me, one latte for breakfast and no other coffee drinkers in my household. You really should try Mycuppa ESE pods - you'll likely make a better coffee than the machine at work.

          • Banj0 on 19/02/2023 - 20:26

            @sumyungguy: No. It's the grinder. Possibly technique, but def the grinder (or rather, chopper as @Nikko put it, which is probably more accurate).

            • sumyungguy on 19/02/2023 - 23:37

              @Banj0: I agree, it's definitely the wrong grinder. But as a person who only makes one coffee every morning, I can't be bothered burr-ginding one dose a day. OP's machine includes an ESE basket which will produce a half-decent shot as a point of reference

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 19/02/2023 - 10:46
      +3

      username checks out

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2023 - 12:55
      +5

      is this what people called humour in the 50s?

      • Some Human on 19/02/2023 - 13:07
        +3

        It's certified boomer humour

    • b0rnwithabeard on 20/02/2023 - 19:26

      why does OzB allow this kind of sexist BS?

      • PensionerXXL on 20/02/2023 - 20:18
        -4

        because not everyone is fragile? isnt your name sexist btw? dosnt that mean youve cheated on your boyfriend with another man? (no judgement) thats just my understanding of what a beard is

  • sumyungguy on 19/02/2023 - 10:56

    I use the previous model Dedica with ESE pods
    This is a good way to find the optimal temperature and shot volume settings as at least the grinding, dosing and tamping will be consistent. For water hardness, use filtered water and the soft setting - this will give you the maximum time between descale reminders

  • core101 on 19/02/2023 - 11:02
    +1

    Assuming your machine can accurately produce the correct temperature, if watery, try grinding fine, in increments. If machine struggles to delivery 35ml and is bitter, it is too fine - back-off coarseness. If no crema it may be old beans, try replacing your beans with a fresh batch, and restart from baseline grind. Try different brand of beans, have noticed some beans always give poor results no matter what you do.

  • belesci on 19/02/2023 - 11:23
    +5

    Not with that grinder lolll

  • Henray on 19/02/2023 - 11:25
    +2

    Your described volume of 35mL for one shot is likely too much water to coffee ratio.
    For classic espresso you should be aiming for a 1:2 ratio of coffee to water, to be extracted somewhere between 25-30 seconds.

    One shot is usually ~8-10g. If you managed to get exactly 35mL out as per your settings, you should be putting in approximately 17.5g of coffee. That said, I imagine you actually don't get 35mL out, and are in fact losing some water into the puck as well. Depending on how much you care - a simple kitchen scale to 0.01g precision, which come very cheap, will be your best friend.

    Consider watching James Hoffman on Youtube, or buying his recent book about coffee making at home.

  • ForkSnorter on 19/02/2023 - 11:27

    I have Delonghi Dedica. I use 2 shots for a 200-250ml coffee. Dedica basket doesn’t hold as much coffee grinds as my old Sunbeam.

  • trustnoone on 19/02/2023 - 11:35
    +1

    How long does the extract take?

  • Gunnar on 19/02/2023 - 11:58
    +2

    At a guess the grinder probably not going fine enough

    Second could be the tamping not being firm enough

    How much beans are you putting on your shot (by grams) do you weight them?

    When you're setting up your machine and grinder go to Aldi or Coles and get the cheapest beans you can get your hands on. You need a ton of beans to practice with to work out your machine. Last time I got a new grinder I went through 200grams of coffee beans to get to the right setting. I'd get a 500g pack of the aldi beans and this way you are not wasting your nice beans. Even with crappy beans you'll know when you have things at the right settings on your grinder

  • djsweet on 19/02/2023 - 12:11
    +2

    Your extraction is likely too fast. You could measure the extraction time and see. I would guess it’s probably around 10-15 sec. You want to adjust your grind and tamp to get the extraction up to around 20-25s. You are using the wrong type of grinder which is likely not helping. Even if you make a fine grind with it, there will still be larger drinks which will cause channelling and the coffee not to extract properly.

    First guess, under extraction due to coarse grind
    Second guess, under extraction due to channelling
    Third guess, a bit of both

    • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 12:16

      Will this grinder make difference: https://www.kmart.com.au/product/coffee-grinder-43149681/

      • djsweet on 19/02/2023 - 12:20
        +2

        Probably not. That’s a spice grinder whatever it says on the box. You need a burr grinder for espresso. Cheapest option is a hand grinder, since you appear to be aiming for budget basement gear.

        While you’re working out your issues, it may be worth just asking the cafe to grind your beans for you. Most will (if you buy the beans from them). Then see if you can solve your extraction issues before shelling out for a burr grinder.

        • AussieBogan on 19/02/2023 - 12:22

          Thank you

          • pinchies on 19/02/2023 - 12:27
            +1

            @AussieBogan: The advice above is 100% accurate. Even a cheap sunbeam burr grinder EM0440 will be a big step up. Spice grinders are really unsuitable for coffee generally (since they break the bean up into inconsistent sizes), and are completely unsuitable for espresso.
            You can also get burr grinders on marketplace cheaply, but just watch out for ones that are so super worn out that they can't grind fine enough for espresso.

          • Snowy83 on 20/02/2023 - 18:31

            @AussieBogan: https://www.kmart.com.au/product/coffee-grinder-43024728/?

            Try find one of these at a minimum big step up… Still not the best grinder out there but those blade grinders are terrible

  • KaTst3R on 19/02/2023 - 12:16
    +2

    How long does it take 35ml one shot to come out? It has to be about 26-30 seconds for optimal extraction. If it is less then you need to grind finer and tamp harder. I dont know why but whatever I wrote sounds NSFW.

  • Daniel Plainview on 19/02/2023 - 13:50
    +4

    IMHO it's pretty misleading that these bladed machines are sold as grinders - as technically they do not grind anything - and use a sharp blade which spins rapidly to do their work. That is not grinding - plain and simple, it's chopping.

    OP needs a burr grinder, even the worst one out will be a huge improvement over his current setup. Honestly should have done just some basic research as absolutely nowhere and no-one recommends those for any type of coffee setup

  • iamherenow on 19/02/2023 - 13:52
    +2

    Guaranteed you are never getting good espresso with that grinder. The grind consistency will be all over the place, and the water will flow straight through.

  • Loot N Plunder on 19/02/2023 - 15:20
    +1

    AussieBogan : the coffee I made at home was very watery and no near the cafe quality.

    What you are trying to achieve in a good cup of coffee is to extract a froth from the beans called a crema. To do this you have to have your beans ground to a consistency that releases the most during extraction
    Hot water and ground beans not chopped beans like others have said is the first thing you need to do if it was peculated or drip or plunger then a chopper will work but for espresso you need to grind.
    As for the tamping just be firm you are not crushing it or very lightly pushing just firm
    Make a couple of coffees in a row and adjust your grind for maximum crema you will know when you have achieved this as you wont see coffee just a thick layer of crema covering the coffee

  • AustriaBargain on 19/02/2023 - 16:48

    Why not get the cafe to grind the beans for you too. Fresh grind doesn't matter so much with a pressurised portafilter.

  • payless69 on 19/02/2023 - 17:23

    Get the best water filter. Residual chlorine will kill the best of tastes.
    To test your filter compare filtered water to tap water by adding minute drops of lime juice. Filtered water will preserve the lime taste.
    Now go out and find the beans of your taste. Actual taste is subjective. Also brewing temperature might be not to your taste.
    In 45 years of coffee addiction I found yes the grinder must also crush the beans one by one and stay cold. If you live near the supplier getting ground beans may actually save your time and stuff like Lavazza gold does actually satisfy some peoples tastes.
    Now enjoy together with a good soul mate, well if possible it is the ultimate!

  • Hugh G Rection on 19/02/2023 - 17:59
    -1

    those beans i find pretty bad. i wasn't impressed with it. i am thinking it is the beans.

  • Banj0 on 19/02/2023 - 20:37
    +3

    I think grinder is the #1 thing here, and seems enough have pointed it out. My wife bought one of these, and it couldn't even do a half good French press. Use it on leaves and nuts for cooking, and buy a burr grinder (conical or flat). Doesn't matter what else you do, a blade 'grinder' is always going to produce ordinary coffee.

    Bite the bullet, and get this https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0833SDN8M/ref=sr_aod_dp_ttl - it's quite cheap in the scheme of things, and you'll get exercise while making your coffee!

    Come back and ask how to dial it in (or check Hoffman, Hedrick and the likes on YouTube). There's a lot more to this stuff, but you should be able to do better than "watery" on that machine. Grinder is the weakest point here.

    • Daniel Plainview on 20/02/2023 - 08:14

      FWIW I moved away from mid-level espresso machine several years ago to stovetop and have not looked back. If you're going to brew espresso you need like a hifi system to ensure all your parts are equally strong/competent - as a crap grinder will let down even the best espresso machine, beans, tamp technique etc.

      I have that grinder, Timemore Chestnut - it's excellent value for money. I've had several hand grinders through the years and though you can get better it's the best I've had. Experts will say it's borderline to use for espresso - but for the OP it'd be a great choice - and they've already complained about their lack of benchspace (which espresso gear can quickly snaffle).

      The Timemore is faster than other hand grinders I've had, well made, does about 20g at a time - I've used it for 2yrs without even cleaning it - it's bulletproof.

      Use a paper cup with the base cutoff in the right level as a 'collar' you can slip into the filter basket to pour the ground coffee in without making a mess. Makes a lot easier and dirt cheap.

      My other advice to the OP would be stop trying to do this on ultra low budget - as you're actually spending MORE by buying things that are useless in the end. Home espresso takes decent gear, which can be cheaply obtained if you know what to get - it pays itself off super fast compared to buying takeaway coffees - figure out this and you will be more liberal to ensure your future buys are keepers that don't sabotage you. :-)

    • kiitos on 20/02/2023 - 09:23

      I have one of these for Aeropress, but found I couldn't grind it fine enough for espresso.

      • Banj0 on 20/02/2023 - 09:37

        I've never actually used it myself - just linked it because I had heard that it does a reasonable if not exceptional job. My own hand grinder is a 1Zpresso, and has very fine adjustments - but the price can be difficult to swallow for some.

        You know Aeropress isn't real espresso though, right? ;-)

        • kiitos on 20/02/2023 - 10:17

          Yes, that's why I made the distinction :-) But I can see that what I wrote wasn't clear.

          I have been using an Aeropress and the time more and enjoying it. I also tried a couple of free lower end espresso machines and tried using the time more to grind for them, but couldn't get a decent pour. When set to very fine it didn't seem to allow any beans to be ground, when set higher it seemed still too coarse.

          I later bit the bullet and bought a Breville dual boiler, using a Burr grinder, and enjoying that immensely. But I still mix it up with an Aeropress every now and then (like just now, in fact!)

          • Banj0 on 20/02/2023 - 16:56

            @kiitos: I kind of wanted to try Aeropress…looks like even more skill required! That is part of the fun though.

            • kiitos on 21/02/2023 - 21:45

              @Banj0: It's really forgiving, though probably also because I have it with milk. Similar to a plunger coffee, but smoother in my experience due to the filter?

  • vice on 19/02/2023 - 22:19

    I have this grinder and use it for pour over coffee and that comes out great - haven’t tried using the grounds for an espresso though (my Delonghi automatic machine has a grinder)

    Lots of good advice above things that are worth considering. There’s a bit that can be done to fine tune here but in cost avoidance order I’d try:

    Make sure you are using enough coffee for the shot - 35ml water needs 17.5g coffee
    Extraction time - 25 - 30 seconds - your grounds need to be espresso fine and you need to tamp coffee correctly (just a quick YouTube visit to learn)
    Temperature - dial up to hot maybe medium is too cold
    Beans - Crompton road by five senses much nicer than Hi Fidelity. Delonghi Signature a good budget option.
    Tamper - hard to tamp hard enough using back of measuring spoon, these are cheap enough
    Grinder - others have recommended decent ones, you could also just get a hario hand grinder.

  • FourBeanMix on 20/02/2023 - 08:10
    +2

    The issues will be the grinder and pressurised basket not allowing you to get a high or even enough extraction. Tamping will not make any differences in a pressurised basket.

    • Daniel Plainview on 20/02/2023 - 08:21

      Its been a long time since I used a pressurised backet in an espresso machine but I think this is correct. OP should read their manual etc - asthis might be a factor - as pressurised baskets were made to ensure home rookies didn't stuff things up by improperly loading/tamping.

      Many will say this lowers extract quality potential but with that machine (which is very consumer entry level) is it a real weakness? Likely not. So I think chasing unpressurised baskets for it would be a waste of time.

      In a situation where many variables are partially to blame, trying to handle all at once causes more issues - as highlighted the grinder is far and away the problem. Am sure you can get acceptable coffee for you - with that remedied. But comparing whatever you get (as it will take a period of tweaking) to commercial takeaway is asking to be unhappy.

      As their machine is worth thousands, is operated by an expert and dialed in each day to variables - is apples with oranges. So if your effort is anything like theirs, you're doing very well indeed.

  • b0rnwithabeard on 20/02/2023 - 11:50
    1. buy a better/actual grinder
    2. tamp the coffee more
    3. there is no third suggestion
  • bamzero on 20/02/2023 - 13:54

    As you've probably already gathered, you should start with a proper burr grinder. The spice chopper might get by for a percolator but won't get a fine enough grind for an espresso machine.

    Time how long it takes to pull a shot. The golden rule is supposedly between 20 and 30 seconds, so if it's done much quicker than that it's too coarse/not tamped enough.

    • djsweet on 22/02/2023 - 12:14
      -1

      This has been touted at the golden rule for many years now. But now it seems a lot of people are challenging if this is really true. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s got some component of bs to it. These entry level machines sometimes extract at a very high pressure and have a basket which is much smaller than commercial machines. These factors are definitely going to affect the extraction for a given time period, but it’s difficult to measure. Anyways as a rule of thumb it’s a good idea. But worth keeping in mind a 30s extraction on the dedica can be very difficult to achieve.

      • bamzero on 22/02/2023 - 14:52

        I've only got a Delonghi automatic so not really comparable but there's no way I can get close to 30 seconds out of it. Can't remember how long, I feel like it's 10 seconds or so. Not snob level but good enough cup for me. I think they make up for it by dumping in a lot more coffee.

        (not sure why you got negged tho, valid opinion)

  • JoeH on 21/02/2023 - 17:10

    A better grinder it is
    The Breville Smart Grinder Pro would be a good beginning.

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