DIY CCTV Install - Insurance Implications

zfind on 24/07/2023 - 11:23
Last edited 24/07/2023 - 13:31 by 1 other user

Hi gang. My sister has DIY installed a CCTV system at my mother's home by running an extension cord from the garage through the ceiling into the roof space where it presumably powers the DVR / main unit then runs Ethernet to power a few cams.

I’m concerned that this may not only be unsafe (electrical device running in the roof) but also might void my mother's home insurance as it wasn’t done by a qualified professional. I’ve spent some time looking for a definitive answer online but can’t find anything concrete - does anyone have any knowledge on this / can point me to a resource?

I’ll be talking to insurance when I can but would rather go in prepared.

Cheers

Home & Garden Home Insurance Insurance Security Camera

Comments

  • FoxJump on 24/07/2023 - 11:27

    i think as long as you dont exceed the power carrying ability of the big extension cable, and you probably wont, then it should be fine.

    A powerpoint normally lets through 10A at 240v. A big extension cord should really reduce that. so maybe … 4A at 240V ? - which should be plenty for a simple electronic device and a few cameras.

    put a power meter where it plugs in and check if its using too much

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 24/07/2023 - 11:37
    -3

    runs ethernet

    Doing your own cabling is potentially dangerous and generally illegal.
    Confirm with your pds of insurance

    here is a good summary

    • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 11:46
      +4

      TLDR: you can run your own pre-made cables. You can’t add/remove/alter a plug or socket.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 24/07/2023 - 11:50
        +2

        I read it as fair game to run it as long as its pre-made and not into a wall / conduit.

    • brendanm on 24/07/2023 - 13:26
      +8

      Yeah, it can be very dangerous when your network connection doesn't work. Lost many good men that way.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 24/07/2023 - 13:35
        +1

        Johnny…Johnny.. JOHNNY!!

        (fwiw my comment was copied and pasted from the whirlpool wiki) I think it is bs personally but looking at some of these fartbook diy page groups its really got me thinking maybe it is for the best lmao) .

      • Not SkyNet on 25/07/2023 - 11:25

        It mainly because some DIYer people don't bother to check for electrical cables or water pipes before jamming a knife in the wall to make a socket outlet. I've seen some scary close calls even from someone driving a nail in to hang a picture.

        • bamzero on 27/07/2023 - 00:46
          +2

          Best to use a licensed picture hanger in future…

          • Not SkyNet on 27/07/2023 - 10:29

            @bamzero: I know it sounds stupid but some people, do not have any commonsense, most people will be fine, but some put long nails into wall cavities with a shower behind and it has been touching the water pipe. same goes with electrical but that usually helps reduce the people doing it, as they only do it once if you catch my drift ;)

    • sareth on 25/07/2023 - 08:44

      Lol what? Ethernet doesn't carry dangerous current.

      • bamzero on 25/07/2023 - 09:52

        Yes, it's stupid but they made ethernet cabling part of the communications standards so legally you're not allowed to run it if not a registered cabler.
        Try getting a copy of the standards too without paying huge sums of money… Wouldn't want to educate people rather than legislate everything…

    • FostWare on 25/07/2023 - 09:50
      +6

      The cabling forum warnings are about both protecting WP from legal ramifications and protecting the plumb job the unions / cablers make ridiculous figures off.
      I'm old enough to have installed structured Cat5 cabling before the regs, when some of these guys were in nappies, and I could do a much better job than some of the nests I've had to point out they redo. The fact they tried it with ACMA to register AV cabling like HDMI in walls, tells you everything you need to know… it's about $$$ rather than "safety". The basis that it touched the telephone system voltages and could damage Telecom equipment no longer washes now a significant portion of us don't use landlines and more so, have FTTP.

      Rant over, coffee had, the flameproof grundies on.

      • bamzero on 25/07/2023 - 09:56
        +3

        Yeh I cabled my whole house years ago. Saw the job a sparky did just running a single cable for FTTP in another place and I can tell you which job I think was done better.

    • dmbminaret on 26/07/2023 - 03:23

      here(whirlpool.net.au) is a good summary

      I'm not sure Whirlpool is a credible source…a bit like using Wikipedia in your PhD thesis.

  • jv on 24/07/2023 - 11:43
    +2

    may not only be unsafe (electrical device running in the roof)

    How do her ceiling lights work?

    • brendanm on 24/07/2023 - 13:26

      wifi

      • jv on 24/07/2023 - 13:26
        +2

        PoWifi ?

    • JIMB0 on 25/07/2023 - 09:07
      +1

      By the same logic I couldn't use a vacuum cleaner in my roof space.

      • dmbminaret on 26/07/2023 - 03:25

        My roof tenant uses a benchtops oven and fan heater. Is this not advisable?

  • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 11:50
    +4

    Recording device (presumably containing hard drives) stored in a roof during Australian summers sounds like asking for trouble. In terms of dying hard disks, not electrical fires.

    Seriously, what bright spark decided to house electronics in roof? It's going to be reaching 40C up there.

    • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 12:45

      It's going to be reaching 40C up there.

      Try 60.

      If it's 35 during the day the cavity of a ceiling will be well above that due to the constant radiant heat from the sun.

      • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 12:47

        Yeah, I was being… generous.

        Hopefully I was misreading the OP and the DVR isn't really set up in a roof. That's about as bright as installing your internet gear under the kitchen sink.

        • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 12:47

          oh i read it as the DVR gear was in the roof and replied as a top level comment as such too, lol!

          Yeah agreed, recipe for disaster.

          • zfind on 24/07/2023 - 13:23

            @coffeeinmyveins: I didn’t install it but there’s a 240VAC extension cable running from a garage GPO into the roof cavity. It’s being stepped down to 24V / whatever up there for the cams and it has a wireless connection so I can only assume the DVR or equivalent is sitting up there

            • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 14:14
              +1

              @zfind: A DVR is going to use hard drives, because hard drives are cheaper than SSD.

              Hard drives are going to be killed off by sustained hot conditions. As long as your sister is okay replacing them as they die and they're set up in a redundant fashion, then… I guess maybe it's a livable situation. But electronics in general do not like heat- capacitors (which are in everything, like the circuit board of the DVR) have their lifetimes shaved to a fraction of their rated spans by going above some not very hot threshold.

    • LFO on 25/07/2023 - 16:32

      "Recording device (presumably containing hard drives) stored in a roof during Australian summers sounds like asking for trouble."

      Some people have a working brain and install ALL equipment inside a proper server box WITH PROPER ventilation/cooling. Ain't that hard.

      FUD : Fear, uncertainty and doubt (shortened FUD) is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults.
      And now DIY networking too.

      • rumblytangara on 25/07/2023 - 17:14

        I'm honestly not sure point you are trying to make is.

        If there's a server rack up in the roof with proper airflow, then it's going to be sucking hot roof air across the DVR, it's not any better than just having the gear sit in the crawlspace- there's a reason that modern datacentres tend to run hot/cold aisle designs where the cold (intake) aisles are kept at 20C.

        If you've got 40C or even higher intake temperatures, it doesn't matter if the gear is in a ventilated rack or not. The gear is going to be toasted regardless.

        • LFO on 27/07/2023 - 12:18

          " then it's going to be sucking hot roof air across the DVR "

          Well … CLEARLY that is NOT the way to ensure PROPER ventilation/cooling.

          Seek for alternatives then. Think.

          • rumblytangara on 27/07/2023 - 12:20

            @LFO: You really are not making an useful point here, repeatedly.

            What would you suggest? Think.

            • LFO on 27/07/2023 - 12:29

              @rumblytangara: Try YOU finding an alternative.

              Hint: cooler air from outside the roof cavity.

              Think, it doesn't hurt. Much.

              • rumblytangara on 27/07/2023 - 13:30

                @LFO: Brilliant! Because setting up new ducting from outside to a possibly dangerously wired up DVR is going to be so much simpler than just moving the DVR to somewhere that makes sense, which is what everyone else with an ounce of sense is saying or at least strongly implying. The problem is the initial install, the fix is not to half arse bodge it with retrofitted ducting, fans and filters.

                You strike me as someone who has had just enough experience around computers to think they are always right, but not enough experience to realise that there's a thing called a 'bigger picture.' Or even, as in this case, 'common sense'.

                • LFO on 28/07/2023 - 13:48

                  @rumblytangara: Your FEAR for electricity is obvious.
                  Only matched by doing anything that involves thinking, work.

                  Curious to know WHERE will you put and annoyingly noisy NVR that does NOT require an extension cord with terrifying electricity going thru it??

                  Inexplicable how some houses have something call "attic". And most have power points all around the attic too. Terrifying.

  • HarryBolt66 on 24/07/2023 - 12:11
    -1

    There's nothing inherently unsafe about a device in the roof space. I wouldn't lose any sleep over that.

    But an extension lead poked through the ceiling is incredibly dodgy. As well as being dodgy, this does pose an increased risk. For example, the lead is far more likely to be bumped, blown, or otherwise jostled in this position, which could over time work the plug at the other end a little loose and expose live contacts to flammable materials, including curious rodents. Unlikely. Again, I wouldn't necessarily lose sleep over it, but then I would never poke an extension lead through the ceiling in the first place because there's a "right" way to do things that precludes this.

    If there was to be a house fire, even for unrelated causes, and the insurer saw this, you could be up the creek without a policy.

    Get a GPO installed in the roof by a licensed electrician. Get one with a data cablers ticket so they can sign off on whatever ethernet work she's done too.

  • zfind on 24/07/2023 - 12:23

    Thanks for all this useful info guys, I’m reading through the whirlpool links.

    • GordonD on 24/07/2023 - 12:37
      +1

      No matter how capable we may all think we are at the simple task of running a cable from point A to point B in our house, this is a task the electrical trade has reserved for itself, unless it is low voltage. I'm surprised Whirlpool moderators even allow it to be discussed. I would have thought they'd immediately shut down any conversation that discussed the subject.

      You can't run a mains voltage cable through an enclosed space unless you are an electrician who knows and follows the relevant rules. Running an extension cable through an enclosed space contravenes one of those rules. You can't run a data cable through an enclosed space if it is going to connect to any incoming wired data source unless you are a licensed cabler.

      You think you could do it safely. I think I could do it safely. But we aren't allowed to, because the electrical trade argued successfully that there are people who are totally convinced they could do it safely, and can't. Anyone doing that needs to know what the rules are that ensure its safe, and follow them.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 12:49

        You think you could do it safely. I think I could do it safely. But we aren't allowed to, because the electrical trade argued successfully that there are people who are totally convinced they could do it safely, and can't. Anyone doing that needs to know what the rules are that ensure its safe, and follow them.

        I know people will harp on about 'nanny state' and treating everyone with a soft pillow but if we allowed people to DIY stuff like this, just think of all the dodgy crap that would be done.

        I have a relative that works in gov as a lawyer and there are horror stories of tradies dying at peoples houses where they've DIY'd electrical stuff and haven't grounded it properly.

        • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 14:54

          I can kinda of see the point of requiring licensed electricians to work on household mains, but having spent huge amounts of time overseas, I also think that NSW/Oz has taken it to a ridiculous extreme.

          Just changing light fixtures or wall switches is extremely quick and simple and I am amazed that an electrician is required for this. (If I'm wrong about this being a requirement, would love to be corrected, because this is work that I want done.)

          • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 15:11

            @rumblytangara: I think if it touches mains, it needs an electrician. So if you want to change a wall switch you need an electrician to do it.

            Why?

            Because if you do it yourself you'll forget to turn off the power, short circuit the connection, miss something, or install a dodgy switch and kill yourself (and others).

            A person is smart, people are stupid. You may do it perfectly fine, but there are idiots who will not.

            • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 15:16

              @coffeeinmyveins:

              Because if you do it yourself you'll forget to turn off the power, short circuit the connection, miss something, or install a dodgy switch and kill yourself (and others).

              Oh, I understand the argument. And this is where I think it veers into nanny state territory (encouraged presumably by some political lobbying). If someone is going to be dumb enough to play with AC without shutting down a circuit then… it's hard for me to find that much sympathy.

              I have so many friends in Europe who have legally and happily done DIY for the simplest of things around their homes.

              • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 15:19

                @rumblytangara:

                it's hard for me to find that much sympathy.

                I agree with you totally, however I'll put forward that dodgy "DIY" work can affect the next person or tradie that dies as a result of it not being done properly.

                • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 15:26

                  @coffeeinmyveins: I honestly see your point here, but in a couple of decades overseas I haven't personally come across even anecdote of this happening. And I have seen some truly appalling instances of electrical work like mains wires embedded directly into concrete walls without conduit.

                  The only stuff I've heard of, that made the news, were failures at commercial sites where fully licensed operators managed to cock things up.

                  So yes, in my experience in theory there's a risk, and in practice that risk is miniscule. When I look at it, it's a balancing act- a huge number people not getting work done and putting up with with sub-optimal electrical arrangements because of the cost (I'm in this category) versus some hypothetical but probably very small number of injuries. Both have costs at the individual and societal level.

                  My own views have been shaped by seeing what it's like in laxer environments- some mildly laxer, some horribly so (SE Asia has truly comedic cabling standards). Looking at Oz, I can see the arguments but I still shake my head.

                  • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 15:27
                    +1

                    @rumblytangara: All good points mate.

                    some mildly laxer, some horribly so (SE Asia has truly comedic cabling standards).

                    Probably have better built houses than us though ;)

                    • rumblytangara on 24/07/2023 - 15:30
                      +2

                      @coffeeinmyveins: Oh not at all! Many Asian building standards are pretty terrible, and I was just talking to a friend in Romania who's fully rewired part of his house himself and it's some ancient farmhouse with rickey infrastructure. That said, he's smart and understands power- I would not consider doing anything like what he did, but that's because like most Australians, I grew up being trained to think that mains electricity was some kind of black magic that would kill you for sure.

                      In my experience, a lot of Europeans do not have this attitude.

      • brendanm on 24/07/2023 - 13:31
        +5

        Lol, that's just the unions at work making it so people have to spend $2000 to do any simple task.

        Funny how you aren't allowed to run your own network cable, but it's all good to change your own brakes on your car.

      • Protractor on 24/07/2023 - 20:41
        -1

        " I'm surprised Whirlpool moderators even allow it to be discussed"
        Then I think you have a lot to learn about ego/forum moderation/human behaviour. Self destruction dressed as free speech has many permutations. Forums are renowned for churning out misguided validation of skewed logic. Social media> Literally a swamp. That's why the lowest of opportunistic parasites gravitate there to exploit the participants. Neg away

      • LFO on 25/07/2023 - 16:35

        "No matter how capable we may all think we are at the simple task of running a cable from point A to point B in our house, this is a task the electrical trade has reserved for itself"

        Funny you state that.
        AFAIK in New Zealand they are allowed to do it.

        Are Kiwis sooooo much intelligent than Aussies?

        • krisp on 27/07/2023 - 00:54

          Extend it to the majority of human species inhabiting this wonderful globe, scattered around many countries… billions do it safely according to local laws… why OZ is so special that things must be prohibited?

          • LFO on 27/07/2023 - 12:21

            @krisp: "why OZ is so special that things must be prohibited?"

            Personal financial interest of certain groups is the answer.

            "Job security" … for those certain groups as well …

    • Xistn on 24/07/2023 - 12:39

      Erm… there's worse in your walls and roof than a extension cord…

    • zfind on 24/07/2023 - 12:43

      Can you point me to a resource for this, would be handy reinforcement for my request for her to re do it

    • Protractor on 24/07/2023 - 15:38

      A sparky left a 'live at all times' female extension cord end wired in our roof space, presumably for future use. 20 years later should I track him down and demand an uninstall? He was licensed and seemed to know what he was doing, and a very clean efficient tradie, as well.

      • HarryBolt66 on 24/07/2023 - 16:32
        +1

        The difference is that he is liable for the shoddy work then, not your sister. If there's a fire, you can point your finger at the licenced electrician, have your policy paid out, and leave it up to your insurer to sue the electrician and his insurer if they want their money back.

    • LFO on 27/07/2023 - 12:24

      "Extension cable (240v) through roof/wall space is a no-go "

      LOL … wouldn't the naughty extension cord be plugged into an existing power point with fuses and the whole lot?????

      • [Deactivated] on 27/07/2023 - 14:43

        You would hope so

  • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 12:47
    +3

    ermmm you're running a computer in the roof cavity?

    What happens in summertime when it gets seriously hot in there? The device WILL overheat and either shut down or cause an electrical fire. 1000% her insurance company will void any claims as a result of that FYI.

    Best bet is to contact the insurance company and actually ask them.

    • CheapandUsed on 24/07/2023 - 12:59
      +2

      Best bet is to contact the insurance company and actually ask them.

      Sounds like a good way to get the insurance voided before you even made a claim

      • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2023 - 13:54

        Not really.

        "If I do this, will it void anything?"

  • Protractor on 24/07/2023 - 15:36
    -2

    Good to see OP and his sister getting on so well.
    Won't she be chuffed when she sees this post?

  • mskeggs on 24/07/2023 - 17:33
    +6

    I think people are making assumptions in their answers that make them feel the people with the other answers are wrong.
    The law says an electrician needs to do any fixed cabling.
    If the extension cord to the ceiling cavity is fixed cabling, it should be done by an electrician.
    But an electrician is not required to run a removable extension cord from a Powerpoint to an appliance like a DVR, even if you leave the appliance in one place and that place is not in the same room.

    If the cord is ‘hard wired’ and cannot be pulled out of the socket, it needs an electrician. If the cord is tacked in place with staples, or runs through conduit, or is otherwise permanently attached, it needs an electrician.
    If the plug is hanging in the air through a man hole to a DVR it may be a choking or trip hazard, but it isn’t permanently attached and doesn’t need an electrician. Note that doesn’t mean it is safe, just that it isn’t breaching the law.

    An insurer might deny a claim that was in conformance with the law but was caused by you operating the system unsafely. After all, there is no regulation against leaving deep frying chips unattended on a gas stove, but I bet the insurance company would take a dim view if you did it and caused a fire every day.

    I think the same goes for Ethernet (though in my opinion this is a grey area) in that if you permanently wire it, it must be done by an Austel licensed cabler, but if you are just dragging it across the floor or through a ceiling space it is not permanent so a cables is not required.
    That said, for an ongoing solution, I would probably do it properly.

    • Protractor on 24/07/2023 - 20:34

      Nice to see some logical observation

  • mike6969 on 25/07/2023 - 07:37

    Put the dvr box in the house and run long cat5 instead. It's cheap, low voltage and can power those cameras over really long lengths.

  • dan2k on 25/07/2023 - 10:06

    I think we've covered off the electrical side here. Be smart, get a sparkie.

    And we know there is a requirement for a licensed 'cabler' to both install (drag) and terminate (fit off) any permanent data cabling. Whether or not it voids insurance to DIY, more likely it opens potential liability..

    But did you know you need a security license to install a security camera? I didn't until yesterday too.

    And that you can't record audio with your security video without both party consent? Which is impossible to obtain.

    Of course, there are grey areas with DIY, and recording private areas on private property - but if your cameras cover the street and into neighboring property, or if you are installing a camera for someone else (like your sister, for EG). You need to look at laws in your state and council area. You could be forced to remove cameras if anyone complained, and those cameras most likely won't be admissible in court.

    • mskeggs on 26/07/2023 - 12:12

      Some of your statements are only applicable to people installing security systems as a business or cables terminating into the phone network.

      • dan2k on 27/07/2023 - 10:59

        regarding the phone network, that's what I thought too. Now we're all fibre optic networks at home right? no chance of electrocuting a linesman with a non-austel approved cordless phone…

        But legally, all 'permanent' data cabling must adhere to a standard, including its installation, and its fitting off.
        You can run an extension ethernet lead down your hallway and that's ok, it's temporary, but if you drag it through the walls and fit it off to a wall point it becomes permanent and standards apply.

        • mskeggs on 27/07/2023 - 11:12
          +2

          I went down this rabbit hole a year or so ago, and the law is far from clear about private cables, for example if I ran a data cable from room to room with no connection to the wider world.
          It is clear about wiring to the telephone network, and permanent wiring there requires an Austel cabler, regardless of the NBN connection type.

          Basically, the legislation is concerned with regulating business operations, with lots of detail about what somebody doing this as a job needs to comply with, but no mention of what is needed for a personal DIY setup.

          Now, if you are a business who is registered to do Austel cabling, of course you read the law to say “there is no exclusion mentioned for personal DIY”, but that isn’t the way the law works in Australia, and there isn’t likely to be any legal test case to get clarity, and nobody from industry wants the clarity anyway.

          An analogy is driving a car without a license on private property. The road rules make no mention of regulations that apply when the road rules don’t apply - why would they? But you can’t assume from that omission that a license is required to drive on private property.

          • dan2k on 28/07/2023 - 09:51

            @mskeggs: I get ya, so DIY data cabling to support a poe security camera system is ok, until that system is connected to a data network that connects to the NBN?

            So for the OPs example at the top of this thread, a network digital video recorder with DIY hardwired cameras is ok, unless you want to connect that DVR/NVR to your data network (and the internet) also.

            • mskeggs on 28/07/2023 - 09:59
              +1

              @dan2k: I think so? As I said, nobody has a horse in this race motivated to take it to court - cablers want us to pay them, the government only cares about the connection to the public network.
              But all anybody can have is an opinion until somebody gets a fine for DIY home cabling and challenges it in court - which seems highly unlikely to happen.

              That won’t stop bush lawyers on Whirlpool confidently asserting their opinion is the correct one :-)

    • krisp on 26/07/2023 - 12:28

      Great explanation. Does breathing require a license too?

    • rumblytangara on 27/07/2023 - 10:33

      Do you know if this applies to cheap and cheerful USB-powered wifi cameras which could quite reasonably not even be called 'security' cameras?

      • dan2k on 27/07/2023 - 11:04
        +1

        if it records audio, it could definitely apply.
        If it points out your window and into next doors window, sure.
        If it covers your driveway and the kerb outside, probably not.

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