Another Tradie Question - Dishonest Invoice

John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:05
Last edited 31/07/2023 - 15:47

Hello,

Hoping for more expert advice.

TIA

Had a plumber out to try and identify a leak in our ceiling.

On the invoice they charged labour (fair enough…although they charged 4 hours when it was really 3) and materials, which was $197.55!

When I questioned what "materials" consisted of they stated the below. The thing is, they didn't perform a dye test and the moisture meter they used (a Crommelin one you can buy from Bunnings for about $50) cannot be calibrated!

Why are they charging for stuff like this anyway? Is this normal? I understand if they use washers or install pipes or taps etc, but "tools of the trade" they will reuse over and over again, surely not?

Eg I don't get invoiced for the lift or machinery that the mechanic uses when they service my car?

In regard to the materials used that included all testing carried out in which was a dye test, Pressure test and moisture meter used to assist us with a thorough investigation to identify the cause of the issue on our first visit and not a secondary or third visit. The reason these are charged out is due to the following - maintenance of the tool (pressure testing equipment) being used, restocking the of nitrogen and dye as well as calibrating the equipment including the moisture meter and pressure testing equipment. Unfortunately, we would like to carry out these items out free of charge however, due to the ongoing cost of maintenance and calibrating required with such tools and equipment we are unable to do so.
I hope these answer any questions or queries.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • afoveht on 31/07/2023 - 15:08
    +14

    Why are they charging for stuff like this anyway?

    They just want an extra couple of hundred bucks without making the labour charge seem insulting. That's pretty much why.

  • Seraphin7 on 31/07/2023 - 15:13
    +5

    How much was the labour?

    I can't speak intelligently to exactly what did/didn't (should?) go on in this circumstance, but I'll say the principle of "materials" are single use items consumed entirely in the context of conducting your work (whether those items are "installed" or otherwise just consumed).

    The use of tools of the trade should be covered in the contractor's labour charge (otherwise you should be equivalently charged for vehicle depreciation, maintenance, fuel costs, etc., not to mention any number of other business overheads).

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:17

      $675 for four hours (should be 3 hours, but they claim GPS tracking says 4 hours on site 🙄

      • Seraphin7 on 31/07/2023 - 15:36
        +1

        Hmmm … the labour charge is probably about the going rate (notwithstanding 3 vs. 4 hours), especially if there's a call out/minimum charge in there.

        Personally, I reckon the person in question is having a lend on matters like tool maintenance and equipment calibration. There is possibly an argument on the use of nitrogen and dye (although I have no idea if this is $1 or $100).

        • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:49
          +1

          Yes it includes a service call fee.

          I'm not querying the labour fee though, just this "materials" fee out of principle.

          If they are doing this to all their customer base, then this would add up to a lot of money obtained fraudulently.

          • Kangal on 31/07/2023 - 18:40
            +5

            @John Kimble: I got charged an extra hour, because they claimed it also involves their driving to my house and back to their office. Well, the thing is I live metro, they are a mobile plumber, and they listed no call out fees.

            It was an extra $80 or so, but he was salty, and removed them. Honestly normal people can get stuffed when they have so many plumbing jobs to choose from, can treat them however they like, and charge whatever they like.

            Now, I try to do all of my own plumbing if I have the tools for it. Some (most?) of it is basic as.

      • LVlahov on 31/07/2023 - 15:36
        +1

        They might claim for travel as well. I have seen some tradies list this in their terms and conditions.

  • GG57 on 31/07/2023 - 15:14
    +1

    Had a plumber out to try and identify a leak in our ceiling.

    Was the leak found?

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:15
      -3

      Not really, they just said it must be a waterproofing failure as tests showed all plumbing was sound.

      What relevance is this to the questions I'm asking?

      • jackary on 31/07/2023 - 15:21
        +6

        Why so snappy?

        • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:40
          +2

          Didn't intend to come across as snappy. I answered their question and then followed up with another question.

          Not sure how else to ask that question without appearing snappy? 🤷🏻‍♂️

  • randomusername2017 on 31/07/2023 - 15:16
    +1

    they charged 4 hours when it was really 3

    Did they magically appear and then disappear at the 3hr mark?
    No callout fee?

  • mrkorrupt on 31/07/2023 - 15:30

    If you can do it why did you call out the plumber?
    Its like someone calling me to fix their PC and diagnosing that their memory is faulty using a free mem test app and then opening up the laptop (11 screws) and putting in a new stick. They ask why did i charge them $200, for a 20 minute job, well it took me 30 mins each way to travel to client and it took me about 30 mins for the diagnosis and the part price and our mark up.

    Yes they could have done it all for $70 part price, but that is our price, $99 min charge + time + parts

    • ihbh on 31/07/2023 - 15:40

      Man, you're cheap when you provide those input costs!

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:42
      +1

      I never said I could do it, but impossible anyway as the leak was from the unit upstairs.

      In any case, I'm just trying to ensure I'm not being ripped off, surely most people would want the same. If I'm not being ripped off, then I stand corrected.

  • netjock on 31/07/2023 - 15:49

    How much did they charge you for 4 hours of their time?

    Problem with tradies is they are not very good with their estimation (sometimes their skills are even worse). So they wack everybody with higher quotes because those they get lucky pay for the ones that they don't. It is like they are running their own casino and you are the suckers.

    I had a tradie come out to inspect a suspected non working extractor fan in an apartment. $250 parts and $250 labour, they came out to look at it to quote. Got my relative who is an electrician to look at it. Turns out the extraction system is centralised and it was only a kink in the duct, 45minutes to get in, sort it and get out of the door. I even went and bought the fan and duct and cost $70.

  • Porker on 31/07/2023 - 15:51
    +1

    I would've said to 'pay for the outcome, not pay for the time' but as it looks like the issue wasn't resolved, it just draws attention to the invoice.

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 15:55
      +1

      It's more the principle, it's not really the cost: it's only $200. It's the fact that they have probably gotten away with stuff like this with other people and probably will continue to get away with it that annoys me.

      There's gotta be an investigation!

      https://youtu.be/xdmkgYnfzE0?si=Qlq7v-6Fssxa4ycO

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 31/07/2023 - 15:51
    +2

    Purely based on labour price, seems reasonable.
    Was this the same guys as last time?

    Edit: ah I see last time was sparkys

  • Gnilgorf on 31/07/2023 - 16:09
    +1

    Mmm will have to check later, since we've been dealing with an on-going leak and plumbers doing flood tests etc etc.

    They did dye tests, pressure tests on pipes, and used different equipment in their attempt to track the leak (different plumbers, different days), but don't think those were ever charged as materials costs. And these guys used equipment worth thousands. Material costs should only ever be charged for items consumed in the repair or install process.

    As a side note, would highly recommend doing a 24 hr dye test. It was amazing to see what that revealed compared to a short half day (or less) standard flood test.
    Also, always ask for photos.

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 16:13
      +1

      Yes, I expected thermal imaging and/or endoscope cameras, but he rocked up with a moisture meter that you can buy from Bunnings for $50, then had the gall to charge (impossible) calibration fees!

      • Gnilgorf on 31/07/2023 - 16:20
        +1

        Lol, we ended up buying that same moisture meter too, so we could conduct our own tests whenever we experienced high rain.

        But that plumber though…dayam.

        • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 16:28
          +1

          Yes, the reason I know is because I was googling moisture meters and thinking about buying one!

      • redfox1200 on 31/07/2023 - 20:29
        +4

        ask him for the calibration certificate to ensure the equipment was properly calibrated, otherwise results are null/void

      • [Deactivated] on 31/07/2023 - 22:23

        Yes, I expected thermal imaging

        Call around and find someone that offers this service, best way to find any problems.

  • GG57 on 31/07/2023 - 16:27
    +1

    I may be going a bit la-la, but I'm sure this has been posted previously.
    It is a problem for the Owners Corporation to resolve. I assume that the Owners Corporation obtained the quote for the works, or approved it at least.
    We aren't privy to how many unit holders the costs are spread across, but it doesn't seem excessive to me.

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 16:29
      +1

      Yes, it is OC, but I don't think people should be allowed to get away with (arguably) fraudulent practices just because it's strata/OC.

      I previously posted about the sparky's apprentice for the same issue, that could be what you are remembering.

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/13793474/redir

      • GG57 on 31/07/2023 - 16:34
        +2

        If it were me, I'd cop this low-value invoice and determine not to use that business for any future work at the block of units. The value doesn't warrant this turning into an argument with the business when it would be of little benefit to 'win' the argument.

        • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 16:37

          I hear what your saying.

          I'm not going to report them to the police for fraud (even though I wish I could out of principle), but I was hoping if I challenged it they would see the error of their ways so to speak and reconsider their dodgy business practices going forward (for future customers). I'm guessing it will have no impact unfortunately. 😔

          • GG57 on 31/07/2023 - 16:46
            +1

            @John Kimble: Actually, I think that you should report them to the police for fraud.
            Post back here with how you went with that.

  • [Deactivated] on 31/07/2023 - 16:36
    +2

    The cheek of those plumbers!

    When I lived in an apartment, I had the distinct impression that some tradies played loosey-goosey with the billing of some items. When I checked with individual owners, there were also instances of work that was charged but not undertaken at all. I even had one take offence at the mere fact that I was querying an item & they actually asked me why it mattered considering the cost was negligible as it was shared between x number of owners!

    I think you're right in this case & the high possibility that they'll continue such billing practices. How easy is it to get them replaced?

    • John Kimble on 31/07/2023 - 16:38
      +1

      I reckon that's definitely the mentality they have and they get away with it because no one cares or monitors it closely and they basically get a little extra free money from each customer…which over time would add up!

      How easy is it to get them replaced?

      The plumbers? I would just not use them again I suppose. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      • [Deactivated] on 31/07/2023 - 17:49
        +3

        My experience was that some of them took advantage of Strata schemes for the fact that more often than not, the Strata Managers automatically paid the invoice without even forwarding it to the affected apartment owner/Treasurer for confirmation/approval.

        If it's easy enough to get the company off the books then I would do so & not give them any more of your business.

        • Protractor on 01/08/2023 - 12:33
          +1

          My experience is that it's now a known business model these days to just try it on. Covid somehow miraculously unleashed it where it was only a minor problem before.
          The model works for all cartels. Very lucrative. Consider trades as vested interests ,not 'blokes doing you a favour'. If you have a win, consider it luck, not the norm.
          The govt and media have amplified the bravado with which trades & service providers have spiked prices, by conflating the issue for their own agendas. In the case of the media- to serve business in the case of govt to justify migration (unsustainable) and bring unions to the front for the new recruitment / power base wave

          • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2023 - 14:44
            +2

            @Protractor: I don't attribute it to 'rona ….it's the moral compass a person lives by. If it sits well with someone to charge extra for a service that they haven't provided because they think they can get away with it then their moral compass need recalibration not their work tools.

            • Protractor on 01/08/2023 - 15:39
              +3

              @[Deactivated]: I agree, I'm just saying a whole heap more threw the compass out the window during the covid era. It shows up in services inflation graph. No doubt the poor struggling tradies need extra $$$ for the Dodge RAM ute. Covid showed up a whole lot of our humanity deficits.

              • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2023 - 16:03
                +1

                @Protractor: Maybe 'rona did ramp things up however I've noticed for a long time that more & more people, in general, are just being plain awful & then some.

                Many are carrying around mountains of hurt & simply act out in the misguided thinking that multiple wrongs against others will somehow make it right for them however the maths never works out in their favour irl.

  • AFOS on 31/07/2023 - 21:22
    +1

    Is the company called Service Today? They charged me for using a specific tool to fix a ruptured pipe. It was a separate line item with a separate cost: "use of appropriate crimping tool." Not sure whether it is a common practice though.

  • Sinnerator on 01/08/2023 - 08:48
    +3

    Unfrotunately the consumer needs to be an expert at everything to reduce the chances of being ripped off by the 'experts'

  • Protractor on 01/08/2023 - 10:36
    -1

    So you paid $675 for a cpl strangers to hang out in your ceiling for 3 hours?

    No wonder people DIY plumbing.

    • John Kimble on 01/08/2023 - 10:59

      Not exactly; I live in a unit block, they were hanging around in the unit above and in mine.

      • Protractor on 01/08/2023 - 11:34

        Upstairs catching up on 3 hours of social media.

  • Noblejoker on 01/08/2023 - 13:07
    +1

    Just pay the invoice less the $197 in dispute
    I highly doubt they will come looking for the extra when you are on record as objecting to the charge
    Good luck

    • GG57 on 01/08/2023 - 13:21
      +1

      The invoice is not for OP to pay; it is for the Owners Corporation to pay or dispute.

  • John Kimble on 21/08/2023 - 09:29

    For anyone that might be interested this is the latest update from Bullshit Plumbing *:

    Thank you for your patience regarding this matter. I did try to call you earlier.

    In regard to the Dye, certainly that will be removed from the invoice. Unfortunately, the plumber may have pressed the dye test button when typing his invoice at the time of our visit.

    Bullshit Plumbing stand by our works, the testing procedures and items used during our visit and the charges for them as we vigorously deny the claim that we are trying to take advantage of people or being unethical as that not what we, Bullshit Plumbing are about. We are about trying to assist the strata plan and manager via carrying thorough works and detailed reporting to give everyone the whole picture and offer transparency to the works carried out with the super detailed work order updates and invoices.

    In regard to getting this solved and finalised for the better of all parties involved, Bullshit Plumbing will remove the cost of the moisture meter from the invoice as well. Therefore, as agreed upon, the dye has already been removed but now the moisture meter charge will be removed as well. Bullshit Plumbing will amend the invoice and send a new invoice through for payment.

    I hope this committee is ok with this suggestion.

    *real company name changed for accuracy

    The new invoice now just has $75 for pressure testing and $0 for materials…

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