Comment Voting/Moderation

I have written the code for comment voting — similar to deal voting but you vote on the comments instead. It would be useful to "bury" bad comments, as moderators don't really have a chance to read through all comments posted here.

The voting bit is completed now, but is currently only available to a selected group of users. The moderation bit has not yet been finished, i.e. what to do when a comment receives too many negative votes. I'll be thinking about a solution later this week.

If you have this feature activated in your account — please give it a test, and tell us whether it works, and how would you like it to work to make OzBargain a better place.

Comments

  • +2

    This is a great feature scotty, just hope that people vote responsibly and don't just neg people down for offering an opinion that differs from their own, as happens so much on Digg these days.
    But OzBargainers are a different crowd than digg, and nothing too controversial goes down here so I'm sure this will only add to the value :)

    Only problem is the plus and neg buttons are switched around compared to digg, but I'll get used to it :)

    • +1

      nothing too controversial goes down here …

      Is there supposed to be a [sarcastic] tag around it? :)

      Only problem is the plus and neg buttons are switched around compared to digg!

      Argh! Can't please everyone! :) Someone in another thread mentioned comment voting in Engadget, and so the order here (plus on the left, minus on the right) was modelled after it…

      • +1

        Maybe I should have said nothing political/religion related goes down around here, but even that's not true all of the time.

        At least with situations like the Dell fiasco we all agree that Dell are asshats, so that's not exactly a controversy :D

  • +1

    Though I don't see this activated in my account, it's definitely a fantabulous feature scotty! This would definitely make the comments published more valuable and readable. Well done!

    [edit] I see it now! Did you just add that to my profile scotty? Thanks!! :D

    • +1

      Currently I am actually giving the access to the top 50 commenters on OzBargain. I guess it's also a matter of refreshing the page to load the latest Javascript file…

  • +1

    Just a thought, we can make the pics of "+" and "-" different for deal voting and comment voting.

    Currently if someone votes "+" or "-" for a particular deal, it is slightly confusing when you see "+" and "-" for the comment at the same line. I probably haven't described it well but hopefully scotty can understand me.

    • +1

      Yes I understand you. I'll look at it (although I hate drawing icons :)

  • +1

    I guess I'm going to have to think about what I'm about to post.

    What has happened to the Top Member board?

    I liked to post alot so I could see my name on the board.

    Now that each post can be voted on, I'm leaning on posting less and less.

    That can't be good.

    • +1

      Currently there's no connection between the top members list and the comment voting. The top member list is just calculating each person's activity over the last 14 days, and it has not really taken comment voting into account yet. I'll evaluate whether it's needed later on (to block mass-commenting trolls/spammers from appearing).

  • +3

    Definitely a great idea. I would like to know the algorithm behind it, to help me understand the following -

    • How many votes does it take to bury a comment?
    • Who can view the hidden comments?
    • What are the advantages of having positive votes?
    • Does more positive vote = bonus points on user ranking?
    • Should the original comment poster be allowed to vote on their OWN comment?
    • +2

      How many votes does it take to bury a comment?

      None at the moment. A comment can get -100 votes but will still appear — because I haven't done that part of the code yet :) However it's more likely to be something like -2/-3 before it disappears.

      Who can view the hidden comments?

      When a comment gets voted out it will become a stub where you can click on to show the comment text. Similar to what Digg has done, so that when Google bots come around they won't index those negative comments. Well, at least that's the idea. It might vary when I get a chance to implement it.

      What are the advantages of having positive votes?

      A ego booster for you? Currently — none. However,

      • Comments with large number of positive votes might get highlighted.
      • It would make picking the prize winner easier for the comment-related competitions, like our current RC Helicopter one.

      Does more positive vote = bonus points on user ranking?

      Possibly.

      Should the original comment poster be allowed to vote on their OWN comment?

      Yes you can at the moment, but won't be able to in the future (something I need to fix).

      • +1

        However it’s more likely to be something like -2/-3 before it disappears.

        May I suggest scotty that you use a ratio of positive:negative and define 'thresholds' for them instead of just counting the negative votes. There will always be trolls around to vote negative on valuable posts.

  • +2

    Just gave all of you a positive vote to see how it works

  • Looking at the number of negative votes on comments in some of the threads, I think there's a voting war going on. Is there a good strategy to prevent that?

    • +1

      Just a suggestion:

      1) Set in such a way that each member in your database has a NeVoteCount and VoteSuspendExpiry field.
      2) When someone votes negative on a comment, calculate the unique negative vote ratio that post has dynamically.
      3) If the unique negative vote ratio for that post > XXThreshold, then NeVoteCount is incremented for the person making that post. Further negative votes for this particular post is locked and the post is permanently burried.
      4) If NeVoteCount > YYThreshold, then all voting rights of that person is suspended for ZZ days and update VoteSuspendExpiry to the date and time votes are allowed again (and potentially remove all negative votes made by that person).
      5) If a member tries to vote on a comment, you check with his/her NeVoteCount and VoteSuspendedExpiry first, to see if the person can vote, is suspended, or has a suspension that has expired. If it's expired, simply reset NeVoteCount to zero and VoteSuspendExpiry to null.

      So if someone posts mainly rubbish comments, they'll get their voting rights revoked for a certain period of time, so they can't retaliate on people making the negative votes on them. So majority always wins. :)

      This is just a suggestion though, and of course you can automate a variation of the above using heuristics.

  • +2

    For what it's worth, I don't think this would be a useful feature. Just my personal opinion and of course I like to see this site improve based on community feedback, and appreciate the technical effort invested by scotty. However, I don't think this feature will be able to provide its intended benefit, and it has a number of potential problems.

    I can certainly appreciate what it is trying to achieve in terms of letting the community moderate comments in similar fashion to its moderation of deal posts, but I think this will prove problematic with voting wars (including people abusing multiple accounts), random chaotic votes (although I presume there are mechanisms for cleaning up after a new user posts "I want your balls" deals, abusive comments and negative votes throughout the site) and accidental votes (will there need to be a "revoke vote" feature?). I don't think the intended aim will be achieved.

    scotty mentioned a couple of possible uses for the positive side of voting, however they feel like afterthoughts appended to something that is really about moderating comments that shouldn't be on OzBargain (e.g. spam, abuse, malicious links, etc). If this really is about dealing with problem comments there are better ways of going about it, such as a "report" link next to the "reply" link underneath comments.

    Lastly, the additional +/- buttons can cause confusion as cacbm noted and I think they are to the detriment of the site's appearance. The majority of comments probably shouldn't have any votes (e.g. "Thanks, I bought one!"), which would therefore potentially make the system look pointless (although will the buttons be visible to non-members/visitors?). Appearance might seem trivial but I think it is quite an important consideration. So if the voting system is retained, may I suggest:

    • Making the colour of the buttons lighter/more transparent so they are less noticeable and do not draw attention away from the principal deal-voting buttons (or indeed the comments themselves);
    • Displaying no text if there are 0 votes; and
    • Showing votes in numerals (again probably in the lighter green/red colours) next to the respective buttons, rather than the more attention-drawing full black text. (And the icons' alt="" text would say for example: "5 positive votes" or "5 registered users have rated this comment negatively.")

    Make fun of my suggestions here :)

    • Thanks. Really appreciate your comments. It might take me a weekend to digest and think about it a bit more though.

    • +2

      However, I don’t think this feature will be able to provide its intended benefit, and it has a number of potential problems.

      My opinion is the opposite. It would be a great feature to keep out the trolls once scotty launches the full implementation. Take for example, wickedwill's comments in this post. You can already see the power of comment voting kicking in.

      but I think this will prove problematic with voting wars (including people abusing multiple accounts)

      I would assume that comment voting is similar to deal voting, where a vote is only counted if it's from a unique IP. So even if users were to create multiple accounts and vote on comments, that would be pointless and wouldn't drastically reflect the overall vote count.

      random chaotic votes

      If it's only done by minority of people on this website, that wouldn't be a problem. Majority of votes is what that matters. This is just similar to how deals are voted, which I think is very effective. In my opinion, this deal voting around here is very effective at eliminating/hiding spam-like deals and posts with very little moderation required. I think the effect of this would be similar with comment voting.

      something that is really about moderating comments that shouldn’t be on OzBargain (e.g. spam, abuse, malicious links, etc). If this really is about dealing with problem comments there are better ways of going about it, such as a “report” link next to the “reply” link underneath comments.

      I think scotty's intentions are to hide comments that have been voted down, not completely remove them. Some people do not wish to read rubbish posts (I have to admit though that I don't mind reading them just to have a LOL at how stupid some people can be :D). If it's an abuse/malicious/spam comment, then I think that's where the mods step in as it breaches the T&C of this website.

      So if the voting system is retained, may I suggest:

      +1. Your suggestions are all fantastic, specifically making the buttons more transparent and non-intrusive.

      Make fun of my suggestions here :)

      Well designed and it looks good. :D

    • Having thought more about it, I still have mixed feelings about the comment voting system. Granted, it is probably here to stay, one way or the other, if only for the amount of work scotty has put into it ;)

      The system does appropriately suit the community-based approach scotty has taken to OzBargain - an approach that is both practical and laudable - but in some ways the OzBargain community itself doesn't suit the system. That is mainly due to a lack of votes. OzBargain has over 13,000 member registrations, yet at a very superficial glance most deals have fewer than 10 votes, fewer comments than votes, and fewer votes on comments than comments themselves. This level of participation is not abnormal in relation to other websites, but I think it is problematic for the comment voting system and particularly for setting the (in)visibility threshold (-1? -2? -5?).

      Take for example, wickedwill’s comments in this post. You can already see the power of comment voting kicking in.

      Yes and no. wickedwill did achieve an impressive amount of negative votes, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm as there seems to be much less voting in other deals. In other words, a similar comment might only attract one or two negative votes in a less viewed deal. Secondly, what did the comment voting achieve? wickedwill's negative vote still stands.

      I would assume that comment voting is similar to deal voting, where a vote is only counted if it’s from a unique IP.

      scotty can clarify but I don't believe such a system is in place.

      Majority of votes is what that matters. This is just similar to how deals are voted, which I think is very effective. In my opinion, this deal voting around here is very effective at eliminating/hiding spam-like deals and posts with very little moderation required.

      That is certainly the intention and I agree that it is generally effective with deals, which is the established "business" of the site if you will. However, it is problematic with comment voting, which has less participation than deals and is therefore less consistent (noting that deal voting can be thoroughly inconsistent too) and more arbitrary. This could be offset to some extent by encouraging more participation in comment voting, but it will always lag for the simple reason that people come here for the deals and the deals are prevalently visible (listed on the main page whereas comments are not). Comments will never have the same audience and participation, and therefore their moderation is bound to be more uneven (though not necessarily ineffective).

      All that said, I'm not here to argue with the system ;) We should concentrate on making suggestions to improve it.

      The right alignment of the buttons and text was a good improvement that helped distinguish comment voting from deal voting. However, I still think there is some confusion due to the same icons being used. At the same time, I think it would be more practical if it emulated the main deal voting in terms of functionality (while trying to remain distinct visually). By that I would suggest that the comment buttons resemble the deal buttons in terms of being white with a green/red outline and green/red text, and clicking the button changes its colour to show your vote - although a lighter green/red (e.g. as currently used in the main deal buttons at the top of the page), not the same full green/red of the icons that currently accompany comments. Conversely, the main deal buttons and the smaller icons next to commenters' names should use the full strength green and red. (In other words, replicate the deal voting style for comment voting except make the deal-related buttons full colour and the comment-related buttons lighter/transparent.)

      I am still not a fan of the ubiquitous "0 vote", which draws attention to the apparent irrelevance of the system (again noting that most comments will not have votes). There is also the problem that the text doesn't say how many positive and negative votes there are; could "0 vote" be 10 +ve and 10 -ve? I would suggest firstly that there is no text if there are no votes, and secondly that the current grey text be retained but - if practical to implement - clicking on that text calls up a little box like the User Profile when you click on a commenter's name. Similar to a deal's vote page (but condensed for space), this box would cite the total number of positive and negative votes, who lodged the most recent one of each and when, and also allow you to revoke your vote.

      Just a couple of thoughts on appearance and functionality. Again, I think the comment voting system fits with OzBargain's community-based approach, but will also inevitably be more uneven. It will be interesting to see how scotty decides to implement the system and particularly the (in)visibility threshold.

      • Thanks for your suggestions.

        Seriously. I have not touched the comment voting code at all since I posted the announcement. I am not working on OzBargain full time (only can do a few hours a week these days) and it's December…

        As of lack of participation, it's probably only selected few who have comment voting enabled. I have just enabled that to every registered users. Let's see how it plays out. Once I get enough people participating in votes, i.e. enough data set to play with, I'll work out what to do with them. The invisibility threshold will be closer to -2/-3 — but it won't be totally invisible, but leaves a stub there so people can still retrieve the comments. The offending text is not included in the HTML so won't be indexed by the search engine.

        • I thought you'd been slacking off lately :P

          I was pretty sure global comment voting had been enabled recently and it will be interesting to see how participation develops. But I think the points I made earlier stand, regardless of how many thousands of members OzBargain has. It will be more inconsistent than deal voting, but again not necessarily ineffective.

          I understood your intention about the invisibility threshold (similar to most other implementations). I would suggest -2 is too sensitive - that's only one member (or unidentified store rep) and one puppet; but on the other hand -3 may be too insensitive if participation is low.

          Two other things I was thinking about: timers, and replies to invisible comments.

          One thing I don't like about comment systems is how quickly comments can change between invisible or visible (particularly if puppets are in play), making the system seem schizophrenic (not through any fault of its own but due to swings in voting). This also applies to deal voting, such as the thoroughly inconsistent example: that deal was buried by three negative votes within 26 minutes of being posted, whereas had it remained visible it may have picked up positive votes from people not deterred by expensive shipping. Comments are a little different because they are not rendered completely invisible by negative votes, but they may still swing erratically depending on when and which people see and vote on them. [Edit: As seen with puppets in a certain recent incident.]

          I think a timer providing immunity - say for 6 or 12 hours from the time of posting - would be useful for both deals and comments, allowing them to stand for open scrutiny and judgment on their merits, rather than being "decided" by the quickest voters (this may be particularly relevant to posts before 5pm, if OzBargain's key readership is during the peak evening period). Deals or comments could thus receive any number of negative votes and remain visible until the timer expired. This would also improve transparency, so that people could see bad businesses and bad bargains that would otherwise be buried by a few rapid negatives (which actually helps those operators avoid bad publicity), and not have to post forum topics asking why their post was removed (for duplicates, etc).

          Secondly, will non-negative replies to invisible comments remain visible? I've found this problematic on other sites, as the replies often lack context without the original post in place - or are actually no longer relevant (e.g. refutations of bad information or an incorrect assumption by the first commenter, strongly worded retorts, etc). If there is a long thread of now-irrelevant replies to an invisible comment that can be very detracting to relevant comments and discussion.

          So I wonder if the implementation should also hide replies to invisible comments. Perhaps rather than hiding all replies indiscriminately, each reply would (for visibility purposes only) receive the same number of negative votes as the invisible comment, so that only particularly outstanding replies would remain visible. (If a comment was bad enough to be vehemently downrated then most, if not all, replies probably wouldn't need to be seen once the comment was invisible.) Clicking to show the invisible comment would of course also reveal the arbitrarily hidden non-negative replies. There is (at least) one problem with this idea but I won't mention it in case it is exploited ;)

          Finally, I note scotty has implemented a cool addition to user profiles in terms of submitted deals. (One suggestion - I can't help myself! - it might be interesting to see the percentage of a user's submitted deals that have received one or more negative votes, and/or the proportion of total negative votes received to total positive votes received.) Thanks and kudos for his continued efforts and investment of scarce time in providing this website and community.

          Happy holidays, scotty - go buy yourself a holiday bargain, because we tight-arses won't ;)

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