New Apartment Wet Area Defects

universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:25
Last edited 18/11/2023 - 12:27

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased a new apartment and have run into some waterproofing issues and would like some opinions from the community. Feel free to have a laugh at some of the photos (https://imgur.com/a/Jyd86Xb)

Unfortunately i did not get the chance to have a good look over this place and opted for a building inspector to look through for compliance issues and they said no issues. 'looks great'.

The main issue is the shower leaking in ensuite. The builder/developer has returned 15~ times over 2.5 months and they are now creating a new shower frame to try and fix.

Some additional defects i can see are:

  1. Waterstop angles are all below minimum requirements in the AS. [Builder says he has 40+ years experience and its not an issue]

  2. I believe the shower frame in a hobless shower is meant to have an inverted 'channel' over the top of the waterstop. The frame is sitting on a bed of silicone above the waterstop with no channel underneath. (Can anyone with experience clarify on this)

  3. Tiles missing in laundry under cabinet/sink. [Builder claiming laundry is not a wet area and its fine as it will just go under the floor to the puddle flage which i dont believe is installed]

  4. Tiles tilted away from drain and excessive lippage and tile gaps all over {Builder says it is within tolerances]

Not sure who tiled the kitchen but they did an amazing job, and looks like the apprentice did the bathroom.

If anyone has any advice or has dealt with going through fair trading, please let me know.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 12:40
    +1

    There's only 2 types of tilers, the ones who can and the rest. Looks /sounds like you copped both types.

    15 times? Jesus
    Anybody can call themselves a 'builder' these days, so anyone calling themselves a tradie downstream of that is of equal quality.

    "{Builder says it is within tolerances]" see above.
    It's a shit business. Good luck

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:51

      Yes i was not sure if tilers needed a licence to do work but clearly not. I am guessing they just operate under the builders licence on these builds. Thanks for the comment

      • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 13:06
        +3

        I'd contact the state dept that oversees building regulation and see what rights you have going fwd.Don't rely on resolution to your standards from a builder who oversaw the initial FU and has been back 15 times before playing the last card.
        Consider a phone call to the same building inspector and tell him your woes.It shouldn't cost you for a chat, advice, considering it is a "supplementary" to a glowing report.

  • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 12:45
    +5

    This is no laughing matter.
    Suggest OP reports these issues to the strata manager as there would be other apartments in the building with similar or worse issues.
    That way the strata manager can compile all the complaints and present them to the builder.

    But this is happening everywhere with this ridiculous self certification going on….

    The tradesman issues a compliance certificate.
    Nobody checks the tradesman
    Certifiers simply collect the compliance certifiicates.
    Again no checks and no liability.
    Boom..the building has been certified (but no physical checks)
    2-3 years later you have a long and growing list of defects
    Good luck

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:51
      +1

      Yes the strata manager sent my email to the developer/builder and told me to fill out a defect claim through a webform in our strata portal. I did that and the form went straight to the developer who is brushing the defects off. I feel i will have to go through fair trading to get this looked at further as i went to a few open homes for units yet to sell, and found similar issues.

  • Muzeeb on 18/11/2023 - 12:47
    +1

    That painting on the door jamb is poor quality as well. Bits of carpet in the paint amongst several other issues.

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:53

      Yes i am still waiting on the painter to come back as there are a few paint issues all over the place.

      • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 12:55

        Already?
        Scarey what paint issues will crop up over the next couple of years

        • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:58

          Yeah there are visible areas where they only did a second coat on half of the skirting board along the wall. Dried paint drips all over the walls etc

  • Xistn on 18/11/2023 - 12:50
    +2

    That's a rip up and redo if I have ever saw!

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:54

      Yeah i am hoping fair trading will think the same.

  • bohn on 18/11/2023 - 12:57
    +5

    Feel sorry for you.
    I've been watching this channel a bit recently, somehow came across it, https://www.youtube.com/@Siteinspections

    he covers a lot of stuff like this.
    Definitely 'non-compliant' as he loves to say

    lazy/sloppy work and very easy to fix at the time they do it.

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 12:59

      Yes i love this guy. I might have a look through his vids and see if i can find some similar issues. Thanks for the idea.

    • CheapandUsed on 18/11/2023 - 16:22
      +1

      Good to see the latest episode where NSW fair trading got in touch with him to find out where that dodgy non compliant build was.

      Builder under investigation and the certifier now unlicensed for 6 years.

      Hopefully more of that starts to happen

      • bohn on 18/11/2023 - 17:00

        yeah but he also says what a joke Victoria is, which is a shame

      • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 18:29
        +2

        The problem is the ability of these bent builders to pop up under another name or license.There needs to be meaningful penalties that impact so much it creates a DETERRENT. Clearly there's too much self regulation to begin with, not enough tough laws, and piss poor penalties.
        I reckon if you are involved in two failed court/tribunals where the faults exceed a certain total amount, say $50K you should be banned from the industry. As for the bigger crooks in commercial construction, how long since we had a Royal Commission, and are the recommendations of previous ones being followed or not? If not why not.
        People paying out their life savings on a once only home mortgage should be fundamentally protected right down the line from these shonks

        • universe on 18/11/2023 - 21:33
          +1

          I agree completely and i can tell these guys are serial offenders as they have had 3 ABN's over 9 years with very similarly named companies. Hopefully Fair Trading can send an inspector out and issue a rectification order. Thankfully it is a new build so i have time before the builder can claim their bond back from the NSW government.

          But a 500k bond doesn't go far if you consider there could be up to 110 other apartments in the complex with similar defects

          • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 21:35
            +3

            @universe: 2 words.
            'self regulation'
            This design is by and for the industry, because the biggest scam of all is the claim that the default position is honesty and integrity.

  • try2bhelpful on 18/11/2023 - 13:19
    +3

    Given the timeframes it is probably an idea to start looking at the fair trading process. If this guy can’t fix it within 15 visits then it might be time to get some money back and find someone who knows what they are doing.

    You might be able to sue the building inspector as well. I would, at least, be discussing the list of building defects with him.

    Ask the Strata Manager to call a meeting where building defects can be discussed. The odds are you won’t be alone with having issues.

    • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 14:12
      +3

      The reality is that if any of the current crop of numpties can call themselves builders,or trades ppl imagine how inept the side gig inspectors are. His glowing review of this unit, reminds me of the not so long ago discovery some of those guys were on the take.
      Building industry is still as corrupt and dodgy as far as the eye can see.In fact with this so called 'tradie' shortage, it's getting worse. Would not build a house these days without knowing the builder and vetting the sub trades.Would not buy a house post 2020 build ,either.

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 14:17
      +1

      Yes i am gathering the building certification documentation and will process the complaint once i receive the documents. The building inspector refuses to call me back and is not answering the phone. The inspection company boss says the report was complaint with the requirement in the AS that they are governed by. Ill have to go over that this weekend. Thankfully i can access the Australian standards for free thorough my work.

      Thanks for the comment

      • try2bhelpful on 18/11/2023 - 14:36
        +1

        We had crap advice from the Archicentre building inspectors they missed the important faults. We had friends where the building inspectors missed that the extension on the back of their house was sitting straight on the ground. I’m not sure these guys are capable of much apart from taking our money.

        • universe on 18/11/2023 - 14:37
          +1

          Yeah i had read online that building inspectors were a waste of money and decided to try it anyway being my first property purchase. Never again

          • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 15:40
            +1

            @universe: A 'good' inspector is worth their weight in gold. But sadly it's another cert 3 in making it up, occupation. Not your fault the guy you got didn't pick this up, but I'd still give him the chance to comment on what's going on.Then get in his ear and ask about what qualifications ,training the industry have these days.
            Maybe find a senior CFMEU member and give him the opportunity to have a gander.They love educating piss poor builders

    • kiitos on 18/11/2023 - 20:55
      +1

      The building inspector no doubt has a raft of disclaimers in the report, including only being able to report on visible things, so the waterproofing side they'll just shrug.

      Doesn't get them out of the appalling tile work though.

  • valuer on 18/11/2023 - 18:02

    How old would an apartment need to be to have been built in 'good' times?

    • Protractor on 18/11/2023 - 18:31

      P-R-O-P-E-R-L-Y.
      as in up to the builders own expectations if it was his family home. At a minimum.

      • valuer on 19/11/2023 - 09:14

        You don't know? A tricky area, indeed.

        • Protractor on 19/11/2023 - 09:45
          +2

          In Straya I'd say the 90's.Maybe earlier
          Trades are a shadow of their former selves.
          It's more about accumulating work, than finishing a job properly. GREED

          • valuer on 19/11/2023 - 11:43
            +1

            @Protractor: Yes I think that there was a time when (more) people had pride in their work and wanted their name to be respected. There were exceptions, but fewer.

            My wife would like us to move to an apartment but I don't like how an owner can run out of options if major issues come to light down the track. Left with an uninhabitable liability at the worst.

            • Protractor on 19/11/2023 - 12:49
              +1

              @valuer: I actually think Australian buildings are entering into an era of 'majority are shit-ism" when it comes to workmanship.The better builders build fewer buildings and have a long waiting list and have been around under the same name for a long time(same owner/s). They 'generally' have a pool of reliable tradies . Builders like this are hard to find, and fly under the RADAR. Apartments are even hard to suss out via building inspections. So many places where ticking time-bomb problems can lurk. I just wish the public would unite to demand we get better laws/regs/rules around building & construction, and make licenses harder to get, and easier to lose when they FU. There should also be a tipping point where serial offenders are banned from the industry. Self regulation kills every industry it touches as far as consumers go.

  • c2pv1ru5 on 18/11/2023 - 19:53

    You mind sharing the address?

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 21:15
      +1

      Yeah they have three buildings i'd avoid. 12-14 Northumberland Road, 5-7 Northumberland Road and 8 Station Road Auburn.

  • WordsToSayIt on 18/11/2023 - 20:32

    Feel free to name and shame the builder!

    • universe on 18/11/2023 - 21:12
      +4

      Yeah the builder/developer is Southern Han Construction Australia Pty Ltd. Apparently linked to club Auburn Soccer Club. On google you'll find a few very similarly named ABN's as it seems they close the company after they get their new build defect deposit back 2 years after build completion.

      They have built 3 buildings in the area (auburn) over the last 8 years.

  • Iwantthebestprice on 18/11/2023 - 23:01
    +1

    Nice knees ;)

  • backpaqer on 19/11/2023 - 11:02
    +1

    If you have builders insurance make sure you get this sorted before the warranty goes. Luckily I took photos off all stages of my build including the waterproofing. Everything was signed off as all good, but a couple of years later we had efflorescence coming up through the tiles (the reaction of water into concrete). Builder had gone bust thankfully so put the claim through the vmia insurance and showed them photos and their builder said "not code, that's got to go back to studs". Two bathrooms worth=$60,000. I only had to pay $500 excess.

    I think if the builder is still around your only chance is to get a third party to pull a tile or two up from the floor in the bathroom to see if the waterproofing covers the entire floor (it should). And we suspect the reason why ours became a problem is due to the plumber siliconing the shower drain in place so that water going through the grout and under the tiles had nowhere to go

    • rogerwilko on 21/11/2023 - 20:19

      Builder warranty insurance is insurance to cover your dodgy builder and their dodgy workmanship under the warranty period due to the builder most likely claiming bankruptcy to avoid having to rectify the dodgy work done.

      Not having a go at being smart enough to buy it, just crap that we need to buy it knowing that people are allowed to get away with this and use it as a loophole for profit.

  • wobblydrow on 19/11/2023 - 12:32
    +4

    Hi
    For most of my career I have been technical manager for building products such as sealants and tile adhesives so have a good back ground. Waterproofing is responsible for 90% of insurance claims as the quality of attention to detail is often poor and incorrect use of materials. The photos you are showing are really not acceptable as in some areas are not compliant to the building code. Silicone should not be relied upon as a substitute for a waterproofing membrane or a patch job, as often a silicone and an acrylic membrane is not compatible, i.e. they wont bond to each other. Which is why silicones are used as the final trim as if they dont bond to the substrate, then water will eventually leak between .

    In regard waterstop:
    For enclosed showers without a stepdown or a hob, at the extremity of the shower area, a waterstop must be positioned so that its vertical leg finishes—
    where a shower screen is to be installed, not less than 5 mm above the finished floor level (see Figure 10.2.17); and where the waterstop intersects with a wall or has a joint, the junction must be waterproof.

    The tile lipping should be less than 2mm as per AS 3958.1 (Guide to the installation of Ceramic Tiles), however, more concerning is the slant of the tiles, no way should they be draining back to the outer edge, this is asking for trouble.

    A laundry is a wet area as per the building code "Wet area - An area within a building supplied with water from a water supply system, which includes bathrooms, showers, laundries and sanitary compartments and excludes kitchens, bar areas, kitchenettes or domestic food and beverage preparation areas.". The building is incorrect in his claim its not. the whole point is if a pipe leaks and not waterproofed then that water goes staight down to the apartment underneath.

    The fall of the tile must be "Where a floor waste is installed—
    the minimum continuous fall of a floor plane to the waste must be 1:80; and the maximum continuous fall of a floor plane to the waste must be 1:50"

    You can read exactly what is needed here:
    https://ncc.abcb.gov.au/editions/ncc-2022/adopted/housing-provisions/10-health-and-amenity/part-102-wet-area-waterproofing#:~:text=(2)%20For%20laundries%20and%20WCs,be%20less%20than%2040%20mm.

    You need someone who knows the code to give you a report, the builder is fobbing you off, the code is clear what is required.

    • universe on 19/11/2023 - 21:24

      I'm sure NSW builders are trembling in fear

      Hopefully NSW government building inspectors aren't as useless as mine was

      • Protractor on 19/11/2023 - 21:28
        -1

        Given they are just re-positioned or new trainees, hoping might be best strategy. Naming and shaming shonky builders and inspectors and having a public register should be step one

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