Why are the providers being allowed to shut down 3G like this and why is there not more push-back?
The sheer amount of e-waste this event will generate is inconceivable, what argument could be made to justify it?
The 2G shut-down made sense, as the technology was /very/ old and barely any phones used it at all, but 3G is still all over the place. Why not wait until 5G adoption is higher?
We are already facing a huge jump in the cost of living in recent years, and now people who had bought a cheaper phone (which are the ones most effected by 3G removal) are forced to spend money they likely don't have.
Surely it is a violation of consumer rights to make millions of Australian's products, some which were only bought within the last few years (like mine) useless.
3G Shutdown Justification
Last edited 16/06/2024 - 23:49
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I live in rural Victoria
Drop us your area, love to check the coverage maps out for you!
I live in rural Victoria
stealthpaw
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MelbourneSince when is Melbourne rural Victoria?
Since when is Melbourne rural Victoria?
It's not, just as that's not my real location.
But thanks for asking.
@CurlCurl: Some people in Sunbury think they live rural because it's a 2 minute drive outside metropolitan Melbourne.
@MS Paint: Some people use straw-man arguments when they don't want to participate in a discussion.
A strange phenomenon when the purpose of a forum is discussion.Some people also don't update their various web profiles each time they move.
How Bizarre.@stealthpaw: You've thrown the "strawman argument" claim around a few times here. This time was about the closest you've got to it being accurate. Are you sure you know what it means? Are you about to accuse me of using it?
@MS Paint: It's handy to know some of the logical fallacies, particularly when you think "hang on, this person is somehow derailing the discussion" as it can help identify what tricks they're using (sometimes deliberate, often through ignorance) . In this case, OP seems to think "strawman" is when people are giving additional information or giving historical examples, e.g. 2G shutdown. They seem to think claiming "strawman" means they're smart and in the right. It certainly doesn't in this case.
Since when is Melbourne rural Victoria?
If they live in the west, I could see why they think they are rural, its the wild wild west out that way!
So maybe this isn't as big of a deal as you first thought?
We can't hear them, their '000' calls never came through!
https://www.subex.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about…
Why is Spectrum Refarming important?
Spectrum is a scarce and expensive resource, and there is a growing need to ensure its optimum utilization.
Mobile radio communications have evolved over the last three decades. From initially carrying only voice, now the networks use UMTS, HSDPA, and LTE to provide mobile broadband services. Typically, 800-900MHz is allocated to GSM bands while UMTS uses 1900/2100 MHz spectrum, and 700MHz, 1900MHz, 2100MHz, and 2400MHz frequency bands are used for LTE services.
Requirement for additional spectrum for LTE and 5G has led to increased spectrum cost, thus driving the need for spectrum refarming. As of 2016, 49% of 4G deployments globally used reframed 2G/3G spectrum, according to GSMA.
At the same time, the number of 2G users is declining in all geographies, opening up an opportunity to use this spectrum for 4G and 5G. In addition, some service providers have already shut down 2G networks as the subscribers have moved to advanced technologies.
edit: this was mentioned by a comment above https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/15389420/redir
TLDR shutting down 3G services actually lets telco's improve their mobile networks and bring higher speeds to it's users. You can see some data here provided by Vodafone. The table shows that more users are spending more time connected to 5G to 3G.
I just think the shutting down a bit too soon and it should have been in 3-4 more years from now, considering 5G really only appeared here in 2020.
That is your opinion. 3G was launched in 2003, so it is 21 years old. 4G was launched in 2014 so it is 10 years old.
Heaps of time for people to have updated to a phone that works with 4G. Basically if you got a new phone in the last 5 years it will work.
3G was from like 20+ years ago. It's over, let it go. Most people were still using dialup at the time 3G was invented.
yep and 4G is 10 years old, so get on board!
OP is very late to the 2G shutdown party….. sorry missed by 1G. Not the first time for a phone generation comms technology to be shutdown due to spectrum, cost of keeping ancient h/W running and new users buying later generation phones.
Bring back my analogue phone!!!
Sorry, missed by 2G 's
MY PAGER FROM THE 80s IS DISCONNECTED
If Apple kept up to their old naming convention the newest iPhone would be the iPhone 5GSSS or whatever.
iPhone 1 then add 1 you get iPhone 2 and then and then you get IPhone 15…
Apple follows the same naming convention and then you get variations within the range 3G, 3G HPSDA (or similar) and then 4G and 4G VOLTE and then…
Oh yeah those names are ugly.
some which were only bought within the last few years (like mine) useless.
Out of interest, what did you just buy that is 3G only? Surely someone who works in IT should have been well aware of the pitfalls of buying a 3G only device in the last few years.
According to his post history, I have a feeling that @stealthpaw might be still be rocking a Nexus 5 handset from 2013.
OP's talk of ewaste has actually missed a possible large factor - embedded modems. I have been involved in a number of jobs where thousands of devices required complete replacement because their embedded modems became unusable without a viable upgrade. Not saying it's a reason to stall progress but there is a tonne of legacy gear out there that does not follow the steep upgrade path of consumer handsets.
A valid point, and as I mentioned in another comment, I have installed these systems myself; a lot of them on farms.
embedded modems. I have been involved in a number of jobs where thousands of devices required complete replacement because their embedded modems became unusable without a viable upgrade.
There are lots out there indeed, which is why all the Telcos flagged this change years before shutting down the network so a planned upgrade of these devices could happen.
Telstra started to advise customers back in October 2019 that the 3G network would be turned off in about 4-5 years time. So they had LOTS of notice to fix things and make changes.
Not saying it's a reason to stall progress but there is a tonne of legacy gear out there that does not follow the steep upgrade path of consumer handsets.
Honestly its not the Telcos problem if you have old hardware, the same happened with the analogue and 2G networks. At the time there was lots of 2G embedded modems in devices. We had a fleet of car trackers on 2G. The world didn't end, we started buying the 3G ones and replaced the remaining ones when 2G was finally turned off.
It’s a good thing they are being forced to update then - legacy embedded devices like that are a huge security risk.
This is essentially the only valid argument imo. Some medical and on farm equipment conceivably still makes use of 3G without a cheap upgrade path.
Some medical and on farm equipment conceivably still makes use of 3G without a cheap upgrade path.
I'm sure its far cheaper to upgrade these devices than leave the entire 3G network running.
Telstra advised 200k users out of ~26 million customers will be impacted.
They are shutting it down because it's /very/ old and barely any phones used it at all. It also frees up spectrum for other things.
The whole VoLTE calling thing was a pain in the ass.
3G was being used to carry calls and when they turned that network off, 4G VoLTE was meant to "compensate". But only 'approved handsets' had access to the function on the network. Lots of newer handset models that were bought overseas (even those with the correct hardware and software) suddenly lost reception and the ability to make calls, send SMS, etc because they couldn't access the VoLTE function. My 5G handset became unuseable.
I believe even now, if you buy a handset model that's not sold in Australia (for eg Sony's flagship Xperias), VoLTE calling probably won't work because it's not an "approved handset"..
I'm amazed how many people are attacking this thread
Probably because the entire premise of uproar and outrage in your op is closer to talk back radio talking points than actual facts regarding the technology and the reason it's being phased out.
I'm amazed how many people are attacking this thread.
That would be you attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you….. But carry on.
I have such a device and I don't know if hacks would work this time round but it was nice whilst is lasted.
Looking forward to pixel 9 pro that will hopefully have a somewhat decent modem.
And I think switching off 3G might become a problem when it's no longer available for phones to fall back on when 4G is overloaded, eg. at stadiums, since calls will only use VoLTE which relies on some data bandwidth being available. Not to mention some areas are only reached by 3G and may lose their signal completely.
There are no "allowed handsets", it's up to each handset manufacture to implement the required VoLTE settings for each network which is why a lot of the overseas purchased phones don't support Australia's VoLTE networks. Telstra, Optus and TPG have no control over this.
I tried everything before ditching my Xperia (that's not sold here) last year. VoLTE worked for a few days, then it stopped. Took it to Vodafone, called them, etc and they told me it wasn't an 'approved' device. Their website also used this term at the time too (seems to have been updated now). Going through the forums at the time, there were a number of reports that it worked briefly for a few times before it stopped and never worked again. Seemed like there was some sort of validation and then block. Plenty of forum posts on these phones and VoLTE issues,
This was early last year and I'm not sure about the state of things right now.
There would be lots of issues as Sony don't include the required VoLTE settings for Aus as they don't sell the model in Australia.
From a quick google, flashing the SEA firmware and then using shizuku to enable VoLTE seems to work.
3G shutdown is also pretty devastating to regional areas where there isn't even 4g. I've got clients who work with sheep farmers who basically say people will die because of this.
3G is pretty shit in most rural areas anyway except around towns/cities. My parents farm doesn't get any phone reception and probably never will, this is reality for huge amounts of farmers, the privileged few that get mobile reception will almost always be close to a city/town.
The same was said when they shutdown the analogue network……But we lived.
The same was said when they shutdown 2G network…… But we lived.
The same is being said about the 3G network.
Do you have an example of a area that has 3G signal and not 4G? As I'm looking at the coverage map and struggling to find anything major without 4G.
The coverage map isn't 100% accurate. There are places that have coverage on paper, but in real life is highly unreliable and 3G is the better option there. I heard this from a friend directly involved in Telstra's 3G shutdown program. Of course 3G hasn't been turned off quite yet so there's still time to attempt to uplift quality in these types of areas, but the wheels are already in motion before these problem areas have been properly addressed.
The coverage map deals very poorly with elevation which is a significant factor in regional areas.
The coverage map deals very poorly with elevation which is a significant factor in regional areas.
They are far from perfect, but as I said do you have an example of a area that has 3G signal and not 4G? As I'm looking at the coverage map and struggling to find anything major without 4G.
There is no mass area that jumps out saying 3G only,
@JimmyF: For me even far out as the areas surrounding Morgan SA have this issue. They say they have it, but I camp around there, and they defs dont.
3G kindles are screwed I guess? And any old grannies who lied on 3G iPads and such. But really, they can just buy a pocket access point thing for real cheap, and if they bring in their 3G iPad to Officeworks I bet someone there can tell them that for free.
And any old grannies who lied on 3G iPads and such.
About their age?
They will have 4g before the 3g is turned off, Telstra have been very clear about this.
Pauline vows to stop all migrations.
According to her we will run out of Tik Tok bandwidth?Here's the worldwide dates for switching off legacy networks:
https://onomondo.com/blog/2g-3g-sunset/#2-g-and-3-g-sunset-d…
Then there's OP arguing to keep 3G for 3-4 more years..
"3G should defintely be shut down, but it should be at least 3-4 more years from now IMO."
Sounds like a guy who just bought a bunch of 3G equipment for cheap and is now complaining that they will become trash in a few months.
The cost of maintaining the infrastructure of 3G doesn't make sense when a large majority of your customer base is already on 4G/5G. If you want to keep 3G then you'll need to pay for it to be maintained, it isn't as simple as turning a button on and off, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. And most carriers would probably lose customers due to an increase in price than they would in turning off 3G.
It's not just the cost, but they need the freed up frequencies for use in expanding 4G/5G networks.
I agree, it's just unfortunate that many perfectly functional devices will become obsolete because speed.
A wasteful side-effect of our capitalistic society.
5g can serve more devices than 3g can. but keep on thinking about yourself and how this affects you.
3g is being replaced with 5g
Everyone seems to be justifying it by saying that 3G is old tech and 5G is new tech so therefore it must replaced it but to benefit from 5G you need to be right next to the tower/cell to be able to use 5G at all. If I'm out in the sticks I'd rather rely on a combo of 3G and 4G (good range + good range) if I needed to get a connection instead of 4G and 5G (good range + crap range and suffers a lot when things are obstructing LOS to the tower). I personally don't have the need to download gigabytes or terabytes worth of data on my phone when I'm out, I really think 5G is overrated, it's one dimensional and all about speed.
IMO the shutdown needed more lead time. I think telcos first started talking about the shutdown a few years ago but I still think the general population would've benefitted with more transition time.
5G in lower frequency bands (the one that 3g is currently using) is not the same as 5g in the higher frequency bands (like being rolled out in dense city areas).
5G in lower frequency bands is designed for large range/wider area coverage.
Its just that there's this old 3G install base making a heap of noise in that current frequency bandSo does that mean the signal will travel further? It looks like Telstra is going to reallocate their 850 mhz spectrum (currently using 3G) to 5G.
I still think there's going to be issues with redundancy on the user end, i.e. if someone has a 3G & 4G enabled phone but 4G goes down they can't connect to the [presumably working] 5G network.
Yes, how far a signal travels depends on the wavelength. 3g is using prime real estate
Agreed, and if not more lead time, an area staged shutdown. Many users have said they need to fee up the frequencies, but in regional areas this is not the case. 5G is not going to reach where 3G previously could.
4g will reach everywhere 3g could.
You're misunderstanding the technology. One of the reasons why 5G is short range because of the frequency spectrum it currently uses (High frequency).
When Telstra, for example shuts off the 3G, which is currently using a LOW frequency spectrum. 5G will actually have a far greater range.
IMO the shutdown needed more lead time. I think telcos first started talking about the shutdown a few years ag
Telstra started advising customers in Oct 2019…… basically 5 years ago. Not sure how much lead time you think they should have been giving!
https://www.telstra.com.au/content/dam/shared-component-asse…
True, but considering they also postponed the shutdown as well.
Personally I think 7 years notice would be the sweet spot because at the end of 7 years I think most people would be ready if not happy to move off 3G.
Personally I think 7 years notice would be the sweet spot because at the end of 7 years I think most people would be ready if not happy to move off 3G.
Most phones that won't work are 10 years, so they have had 10 years to upgrade to something newer and have failed. Doubt an extra 2 years notice will change anything.
From the article
Fresh figures reveal more than 200,000 Telstra customers are still using 3G-only mobile phones that will no longer work when the network is switched off
All this drama over 200k users who are using 10 year old phones, with the no 1 phone on the list that could be replaced for $40.
Most phones that won't work are 10 years, so they have had 10 years to upgrade to something newer and have failed. Doubt an extra 2 years notice will change anything.
I disagree and think longer notice for something this large and important is better.
All this drama over 200k users who are using 10 year old phones, with the no 1 phone on the list that could be replaced for $40.
A forum thread on it is hardly "drama". This should be considered as being a big deal and treated seriously because it could lead to a life and death situation. Ideally telcos would've contacted everyone (especially those who live regionally) asking them what phone they had an offered a replacement for free or at a discount because they're forcing this change onto their users.
200,000 people is still 200,000 people. I mean really, where is the empathy these days.
I disagree and think longer notice for something this large and important is better.
You're welcome to your opinion, mine differs, 5 years is ample notice.
A forum thread on it is hardly "drama". This should be considered as being a big deal and treated seriously because it could lead to a life and death situation.
The way the OP is carrying on, half of Australia is going to be left without a phone.
200,000 people is still 200,000 people. I mean really, where is the empathy these days.
Telstra has ~26 million active customers and only 200k will be impacted!? So not really sure we should have empathy for 200k people rocking 10 year old devices who haven't bothered to update their phone after repeated warnings?
https://www.telstra.com.au/aboutus/our-company#:~:text=In%20….
Smaller telcos pay to rent the 3G, 4G & 5G bandwidth seperately from larger telcos.
Larger telcos pay to built & maintain 3G, 4G & 5G towers which are all seperate.
If we eliminate 3G, we should see a drop in costs to all telcos which in theory should result in cheaper prices for consumers
Source: I worked for Virgin Mobile/Optus & NBN
If we eliminate 3G, we should see a drop in costs to all telcos which in theory should result in cheaper prices for consumers
I really, really hope that's the case, but also really, really doubt it…
Thanks for chipping in.
Like the old man yelling at the self checkouts saying I demand to be served by a human not a robot! But he'll gladly use ATMs and an iphone
I'll try to help you mate. From your comments, I read that you are using a Xiaomi Phone, and it probably doesn't have VoLTE Capability so you are concerned it will be rendered useless after the 3G Shutdown. Have you tried force-enabling VoLTE on your device? I recently commented on another post providing these details.
Many Xiaomi phones do not have Band28 and Telstra clearly mentions you need B28 for VoLTE to work on their network. I am impacted by this, whilst using Boost.
However, I have ported to Lebara (uses Vodafone), and Amaysim (uses Optus) and I can confirm I get VoLTE on both networks.
You may need to force-turn-ON VoLTE by dialing *#*#86583#*#* and then restart the phone once. Let me know if it works on any Vodafone/Optus MVNO.
Note: This will also work for many/most officially-non-supported phones on the Australian Network, allowing you to access VoLTE on your device.
Thanks for the helpful advice @djoz
I read that you are using a Xiaomi Phone
So complaining an imported phone isn't working? Got it.
So the top phone is basically a candy bar phone that could be replaced for $40
So the top phone is basically a candy bar phone that could be replaced for $40
You know what can't be replaced with $40? The Google Pixel 2 XL.
12.2mp camera, octa-core cpu, released in 2017.You know what can't be replaced with $40? The Google Pixel 2 XL.
Lucky its not no 1 on the list then!
I had one of those phone, battery will be shot by now and getting like 3 hours life per charge!
@stealthpaw: That phone has 4G. If it doesn't work, it's either because it doesn't have an update to enable VoLTE (good thing pixels now get 8 years of updates?) or some carrier setting.
goes to show how dumb of a post this is over $40
Yep and from this article, only 200k users with phones which won't work left on the 3G network Australia wide.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-06/telstra-to-extend-3g-…
@JimmyF: OP works in IT but likes crap audio quality phone calls. Tells you everything you need to know.
So complaining an imported phone isn't working? Got it.
I'm not concerned about myself, although inconvenient i am fortunate enough that I can deal with this, but plenty of families will not be.
How will those families manage… The number 1 phone impacted on the tio report above costs $40 to replace!!
Its very simple, if you are concerned about waste, then think about all the materials wasted maintaining a network that is multiple generations behind (e.g. metals for cabling, antennaes, etc, fuel to get techs out to site, the list goes on).
But very simply, you are complaining because it impacts you. Poor you, having to go buy another phone. Why should 4g and 5g users subsidise keeping a substandard network afloat because you were too cheap to buy a new phone.
See above; not concerned about myself, but sure, attack me personally if that makes you feel good.
You have this amazing ability to sail straight over the salient points and miss the big picture.
something something strawman argument
I don’t see how ewaste is really that big a problem. The average Australian replaces their phone every 3.5yrs, so it stands to reason about 30% of Australians replace their device each year.
From what I have read, less than 2% of devices are impacted by this change. Given a third would already be replacing their device this year, you’re looking at ~1.2% increase. People are keeping their phones longer now then they were a few years ago, so there is still less waste then previously.The benefits of this change outweigh the small impact. There are numerous people experiencing service degradation due to network congestion that this should help solve.
Thanks for that @jakka you have changed my opinion on the e-waste issue mostly. (I know, views being changed on the internet? Shocking.)
Wow.
Spectrum is not infinite. In order to have better 5G, the 3G spectrum needs to be recovered and repurposed. The government made billions reselling the 3G spectrum years ago. Its actually astounding that its taken so long…
Who are all these people still using 3G because I know zero
Legit, I know 3 IRL. Ended up helping them switch to iPhone (apparently iPhones are better if you want to keep your phone for >5 years.
A lot of security systems, emergency phone back ups, etc
I live in rural Victoria, very few people use Vodaphone here.