I turned on the news for the first time in a while, and see that Sydney Train industrial action is still in progress.
Thankfully, it does not affect me, but I am having difficulty understanding what all of this is about.
The news does not seem to cover the relevant details such as what the train drivers are actually getting paid.
I was always of the impression, that train drivers get good money - anyone in the know able to make comment?
The industrial action was initiated by the Rail, Tram and Bus Union (RTBU) over safety concerns of a new, Korean-made inner-city fleet. NSW rail union secretary Alex Claassens also called for a deed from the state government which would confirm the changes.
The string of strikes follows more than a year of failed negotiations between the RTBU and the NSW Government for the new enterprise agreement.
“Workers won’t be bullied into allowing unsafe trains to run on our railways, nor will we be bullied into submission by a government more focused on ideological games than in delivery the public transport system we all deserve.”
So apparently they don't like the imported trains, and likely also want more pay
The commencing base salary for Trainee Train Drivers is $1,469.60 per week.
That's just for a trainee
A few jobs sites list the income at over 100k
There is a lot of opportunity for overtime in the rail network (it is understaffed) so I expect the majority of drivers earn over $100k.
How hard is it to drive a train? They only go forward and back. Don't need to steer, change gears, refuel, negotiate traffic, etc.
Surely a simple computer chip could handle it.
Maybe it is hard to recruit because people don’t see it as a long term career? Maybe it is harder than driving a model train? I think the automatic operation of trains is straight forward for new lines, built for it front the ground up, but I gather retro fitting is much harder.
Personally, I think I’d find it a bit lonely and boring, but I don’t begrudge the drivers their pay packet.
Takes 12 months of training to become a driver.
Drivers must know every signal location, each speed zone and daily speed changes.
The drop out rate is high, a high percentage of staff leave after being unable to cope with shift work. Starting at 1am one day to finishing at 1am in the same fortnight with working weekends and public holidays.
It’s not like driving a car car.
@Seaeagles: The occupational hazard of someone throwing themselves in front of your train is real too and not easy to cope with
@Scrooge McDuck: Machines don't get PTSD right? Maybe they don't even notice?
Then again, maybe the programmers get the burden instead?
@Scrooge McDuck: One day there was a tree on the tracks. Driver & his assistant stopped the train, notified the line mngmnt, went out, video'ed to HQ, got approval (and I assume got safety stuff done) cleared the tracks and continued the journey. 15 min delay with regular updates to the passengers.
I doubt machine would be able to do this.
@corvusman: This is a simple use case to deal with when design an auto-pilot system, think about what Tesla has been done for much more complex traffic scenario. Machine can do a lot more than this, let alone control centre can monitor every line realtime operation and make intervention if needed remotely.
If you mess up you can hurt hundreds of people at once and bring that route to a stand still.
Seems worth six figs to me.
@Zondor: But lots of other cities have automated trains and trams. Count me in the 'this is still a job?' club. Driving a train whould be far easier than driving car for a computer, with significantly fewer variables, no traffic or pedestrians, no steering, etc., and yet we have self driving consumer cars.
Surely a simple computer chip could handle it.
While there are autonomous trains the rail network has to be engineered and maintained specifically for them as is the case with the Sydney Metro.
Yep.
How hard is it to drive a train? They only go forward and back. Don't need to steer, change gears, refuel, negotiate traffic, etc.
Says the person who never drove one.
That said, I've never driven one either, but if their interview process is anything to go by, then it's not that easy.
Many of my mates who applied for the job who should be more than qualified (having been bus drivers) failed multiple times. I hazard a guess to the question "How hard is it to drive a train?" with "Very hard"
@suchan: Or maybe your friends aren't qualified enough, given that driving a bus is nothing like operating a train.
And no - interview questions (especially for govt jobs) are rarely an indicator of the actual job. Government hiring focuses more on attitude, background check, vaccine status etc rather than actual skills. In other words, if you've got the relevant qualification, they don't really care if you're better or worse than the next guy.
@SlavOz: @SlavOz: exactly my point then. If it is allegedly as ez as some users in this forum wants to paint it then it shouldn't be so hard to score the job.
I've applied for (and worked at) some government jobs and perhaps it's a different department / government body but my interview process is nothing like what you've described.
@suchan: lol imagine thinking people aren't train drivers because they can't get the job.
It's because they don't want the job mate. Anyone could get it if they really wanted to. This notion that driving a train is some rare martyrdom that someone must carry is nonsense. People need to stop pretending their jobs are better or more valuable than they really are.
Good on em.
That's just for a trainee
Try to become one and will see how hard it is to get in.
Their physical health even checks for "full normal color perception" (as for commercial pilots) to allow you to start training.
Fat Pigs at Canberra earn a lot more and do a lot less (nothing really) with more fringe benefits.
Compare an air-con office and free meals with a smelly cubicle for a train conductor/driver.
That's true, train drivers with 4+ years experience earn about $140k if they do a lot of overtime. It's not an easy job due to the random shift times and boredom of looking at the same bits of track all day/night.
I was told that the new trains provide a lot more automation so that opens that gateway for a lot of flagmen/drivers to lose their jobs if they are accepted. As such, the workers are deeming them to be "unsafe" and refuse to drive them. This is extremely frustrating for all the other workers on the same EA who are fed up with the industrial action as they haven't seen a pay rise in 2.5 years and they are holding everyone back (and may get everyone fired during a restructure) because they don't want to risk losing their jobs.
Luddites.
You were halfway there - the automated doors do not recognise children. The industrial action has always been about safety but the train drivers refuse to drive the trains because the doors can cause death in children
Article to accompany my comment
I doubt it's safer to have a tiny screen replace at least one person physically checking that no one is stuck a door or has fallen down in between the train and the platform.
The guards are handy too for dealing with other issues that arise like calling police for incidents aboard the train. If Sydney trains wants to get rid of guards and shift all that responsibility to the driver they should pay them for the increased responsibility.
By the sounds of things the state government wants to somehow use the train refitting as a bargaining chip in the pay negotiations. It's kind of rich that the state government charged everyone onpeak rates when the trains were empty during covid and bumped up the fees at the beginning of the year while expecting the workers to basically take a paycut with a payrise that doesn't even match inflation.
Yeah this, seems to be a concept of the employer wants to use the tech to reduce the number of jobs, the employees are highlighting the safety risks the reduction and compensating tech will bring.
Also I recall the employer offered a one off cash 'bonus' to the employees if they accepted the extra screen watching role of $3k, which was not accepted.
As the first reply above provides it seems the union want a deed that the safety issues will be fixed, which were highlighted some 3 years ago during the design phase of the train contract and not acted on.
Fun times.
I have no sympathy for train drivers with the disruptive strike. They get paid so much more when regular people are doing it tough.
The railwaymen deserve better, Guards are a necessity for commuter safety
Alan Joyce did that and now can’t find baggage handlers, caterers or cabin crew…
Turns out with the lowest unemployment rate since the 70s people are aware of what they’re worth and leaving for better paying jobs. Only those who actually enjoy where they work are sticking around to tell the company to lift their game.
people are aware of what they’re worth and leaving for better paying jobs.
Unless you're a nurse or GP, then then it's stuffed everywhere and just leaving altogether.
Why don't you get a job as a driver?
bit far to travel from melbourne to shitney to drive a train
I thought it was the tram drivers that you found highly paid?
@mskeggs: I do think they are highly paid… extremely for what they do.
Tram drivers have been striking for pay deal worth an extra $20,000
… according to their employer Yarra Trams, the wage demand would see average pay go past $114,000 at the end of the four-year deal.
@pharkurnell: 114k in 4 years time seems cheap for shift work+public holidays+no work from home.
Teachers make that with 13 weeks off and 6 hour days?
Teachers make that with 13 weeks off and 6 hour days?
You clearly don't know anyone in education or are just ignorant.
I have several family members who are teachers and friends as well. They certainly don't work 6 hour days.
Added to that they have to deal with grubby kids, they don't get paid enough.
@BHR: You're delusional if you think teachers work 6 hour days. Endless nights of marking and taking on admin roles. Holidays aren't even holidays with all the marking and lesson planning to do.
@pharkurnell: Average pay is almost $90k today. Not really seeing the outrage that they might be on $114k in 4 years.
If it is a pay rise for you, maybe apply for the job.
If it is a pay cut, what job do you do that deserves more pay? Will you be getting any pay rises in the next 4 years?
And if you have good skills and will work for peanuts, can I hire you?
@mskeggs: Just checking for the $90k salary, during school holidays teachers do work in the school 9-5 right ? otherwise there is nothing to compare with…
@dlovep: Average wages in Australia are nearly $91k:
https://www.abs.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/average-f…
Teachers and train drivers both earn above average.
@Geoff01: Agreed the average is much higher than the median for ordinary time earnings, but a lot of people get overtime, commissions and bonuses, and many don't work full time. So it is swings and roundabouts.
The median is close to $63k, but does include part time workers too, while the average (mean) is full time workers only. And there are 4million part timers vs 9m full time.
If you look at full time workers only, and include overtime/bonuses etc, the median is over $95k. (note I am just multiplying weekly by 52, some workers won't have paid holidays and will miss overtime when on leave, but some will also get leave loadings…)
Which is higher than I would have thought.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-workin…
@mskeggs: Train drivers, construction workers, diesel mechanics, real estate agents that are all on similar salary and don't require a 4 year degree and HECs. Also, it takes nearly a decade to hit that 90k+.
Add that to average of 50 hour work weeks, abuse by children and parents, I don't see how you don't think they're underpaid…there's so many better job options not just in terms of pay and opportunity costs, but job wise as well. There's a reason why there's a high burnout rate, and just as you'll say 'why not become a train driver then', why not become a school teacher then?
Ok. I’m happy to not have trains running for 18 months until they train new cheaper drivers who will quickly jump ship to freight train driving for more money.
sack em all and hire new drivers on less money….
Lol @ this trash. There is a shortage of personnel. They can’t get more people at the current wages.
How the (fropanity) do you expect them to sack them all and hire new staff at lower pay rates when the higher pay rates aren’t attracting staff to fill the gaps they already have?
And what do we do with the rail infrastructure between when you sack everyone and train up the new staff. It’s going to take months to train new “cheaper” train operators.
And if you nearly faint at what they get paid, why don’t you become a driver if the pay is that good?
There is a reason why their pay is so good and it usually boils down to shit conditions, shit hours, extreme responsibility, poor work/life balance, shift work, long hours, working away from home a lot… the list goes on.
When the borders re-open there will be an absolute flood of people willing to work for less in every industry.
The business lobby everyday is trying to convince the Govt to open the borders so they can get staff at lower wages.
Last I checked the borders re-opened many months ago.
As for softening work visas and allowing a flood of 457s in, do you really think the unions are going to allow Labor to do that?
Train the train trainers.
There is no shortage of people wanting to be a train or tram driver. Government jobs are always in demand. Do little, get paid a fortune, near infinite job security.
Bingo.
The Korean trains were purchased because they can be operated with one less crew.
The union doesn't want to see members jobs go.
Probably, it is a bit less safe with fewer crew.
The union is one of the few remaining with much power, so the conservative government in NSW would very much like to to see them brought to heel.
The cost of living has risen and union members want pay rises.
Their union has been good at getting them pay rises over the years, so they are on good money compared to Uber drivers or parcel contractors.
The government has agreed to keep crew on the trains after all the disruption, but is reluctant to spell it out in writing (I think this is still true).
The government made some blunders along the way when they could have avoided strikes.
Here we are, with industrial action. If you earn a wage, it is probably good news if the union gets a pay rise, it will add fuel to your own argument for a pay rise.
If you think inflation is at risk from pay rises (as opposed to company profits) you probably don't want any wage pressures.
IMO, its all a bit of a storm in a tea cup.
And its all legal and legit. All hoops have been jumped through. Must admit I do enjoy a bit of anarchy.
Not sure I understand how a striking worker (and in this case, strikes approved by the IRC) is “anarchy”?
You’ve watched the nsw government self combust over the issue?
Also, it’s fair work not irc
About the Industrial Relations Commission
Most of the matters the NSW Industrial Relations Commission deals with are related to state awards and agreements covering public service employment in state government and local government organisations.
People employed under national awards (modern awards) and national agreements are covered by the Fair Work system.
Except for state and local government employees, most employees covered by the NSW industrial relations system were transferred into the national Fair Work scheme from 1 January 2010.
Minns will restore industrial harmony
Jodi McKay was more effective in my opinion.
Other than this though, don't really know what he can promise besides going.. Hey at least I didn't turn a blind eye to Barilaro
Obviously trying the small target strategy, which is fine. Perotett doesn’t have the control or attention to detail Gladys had, and I suggest he was a bit “well, if Gladys can be successful, I’ll be ten times as good” and is discovering the top job isn’t one that comes on a platter.
Can’t see the Libs remaining in power, and they don’t deserve to, after the performance since December.
I stand by the NSW state government.
They are in a deficit black hole, they don't have the money to give to public servants.
The Korean train thing is just a thinly veiled excuse, give them enough money and the drivers will recite the Korean alphabet.
This is just pure greed from the Union and the public servants.
Good on you for sticking to your opinions.
While I aint a fan of the unions, they did it by the book and took all the legal steps to be allowed to strike. The nsw government even tried to shut the strikes down in court and lost.
So now its who has the greater stamina. Like i said, its a dog eat dog world.
Deficit didn't stop them creating a bunch of $500k jobs for themselves.
I wouldn't take their word for who is and isn't greedy in the world. They already lied about who shut down the rail network earlier this year, locking out workers and pretending they were on strike.
What's it like living on another planet with Ayn Rand?
The NSW Government has been agreeing and then reneging on making vital upgrades to these trains that do not recognise children-sized bodies and thus can be dangerous, causing death.
NSW Gov are tying it into pay disputes to get the public on their side.
"they don't have the money to give to public servants."
They sure loved giving it to all their mates and johnny b
Time to make the whole network driverless metro trains.
Hahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahha
AhhHaHhahahahHhahahahhahahahahhahahah omg lol ahahahhahahahhahhahashaha
Sure, let me just get $200billion from my wallet
Hardly. The entire North West Metro, which included 23km of new track construction cost $3.7b.
Chatswood to Bankstown is already underway at $12.5b as well as the Sydney Inner West (City to Parramatta) for around $25b
Covering the north, south west and west for ~$40b makes train driver strikes irrelevant for the majority of Sydney.
And the opportunity cost of not having those funds available to spend on other infrastructure that goes unbuilt?
Just so you can win some ideological game?
Don’t waste my money on that.
And that back of beer coaster assessment sounds like the nsw gov saying fixing the trains would be $1 billion, two days later $400million and two days later $200 million. Actually wait, do you work for treasury?
Also. North west metro was $7 billion
Also line from chatty to sydnenham is expected to blow out to $17b
And that back of beer coaster assessment […]
Like you did with your initial 200b comment? alright bud.
@coffeeinmyveins: Calculating opportunity cost I recall im closer. But even if im not, id still rather $40billion be spent on new programs as opposed to an ideological battle.
Opportunity Cost = Return on Most Profitable Investment Choice - Return on Investment Chosen to Pursue.
Given we already have a rail network the opportunity cost is what benefits any new infrastructure would deliver vs the benefit of the ‘upgrade’ of existing network to metro
How long will it take to recoup that in savings from driver wages? It’s literally burning money for no reason.
I don’t like unions or the drivers. But don’t waste my money on a stupid war
Well thats the Wrong attitude.
Driverless trains have already been implemented in Singapore and other major cities.
Train drivers are primarily there to assure people on board that there's still a human in charge, much like how planes could complete the entire journey themselves but pilots are there just to reassure people.
The problem is that our networks are an open system and not completely underground/closed off which introduces a lot of variables. Take away the level crossings and close in the platforms and all of a sudden the network can be automated.
Also people literally die every week, (the numbers are higher than you'd expect) on our rail networks, and the train drivers are very often confronted with it, yes we're talking suicides. Taking a human away from that situation can drastically reduce the mental anguish on people and stress leave as a result.
And think of the savings in the long run, say 5 years worth of wages to design and implement vs permanent ongoing costs.
Whats the annual wage bill? $100 million pa?
People need jobs. If all the work is automated, who's going to have any money?
@BigTriangle: People need jobs yes
But keeping jobs alive just for the sake of it is a very liberal virwpoint
Its like subsidising a loss making forestry industry to 'keep jobs'
Its like subsidising jobkeeper permanently to 'keep jobs'
Privatisation wants automated trains
Government would like to see as much money wasted as possible because its 'economic stimulus' their wage
@Drakesy: Yes. Keeping jobs alive for the sake of it is not good. But your idea will burn billions and billions to save how much in wages per annum while preventing the money being spent on something with a better ROI.
The wage bill for drivers is much less than $100million pa.
How many schools and hospitals could we build instead of this ridiculous ideological war. Not with my taxes thanks
@Awoke: How many schools and hospitals could be built and operated by saving millions of dollars in driver's pay.
It's pretty significant.
@Awoke: Where is your calculation that it'll be $40 billion? Could i get a source?
From memory it would be about a billion to retrofit.
Safer as well as you take out driver error
@Awoke: building a railway line does not equal automation of trains. Civils vs tech outlay.
WA's fare card system was delivered for $25 million in house and worked reliably from day 1, private wanted $125 million.
May want to get acquainted with prices.
Source: I worked for a railway for a few years.
@Drakesy: Sure ok. You ask the government to take your course of action the. So full of lolz you are
@Awoke: What does building a new line have to do with automating trains? You're arguing against a point no one made. Nice to see such a quality posts from our new members.
@Drakesy: You can't just assume that sacking the drivers means you will save all of their salaries.
A significant portion of what you were paying the drivers will instead have to be diverted to maintaining the control systems associated with automated trains.
@Drakesy: privatising is stupid. you end up with all the profits being siphoned into tax arrangements and a more garbage society. who said keep jobs as charity? straw man. gov wants to waste money? what?
@BigTriangle: And people need to get to their jobs. If one group of people is causing an issue to the jobs of others … a problem to be solved.
It would be a massive undertaking to convert the existing system to an autonomous one.
I suspect the government is waiting until better options become available that can deal with our neglected rail network instead of using a solution like they did with the Sydney Metro that needs the lines to be reengineered.
And the first person that gets killed by a driverless train would cause massive public outrage and backfire on the government that installed the driverless system.
It would literally take one death due to driverless train to put humans back at the controls and then the unions would have a “we told you so” attitude and would basically be able to hold the government to ransom over reinstating train drivers.
Driverless trains, my arse. About the same time as we get driverless cars.
It's already probably happened. Be it Singapore or any other major city.
No outrage.
The funny thing is a train still takes at least 200m to stop (often 3-400m) so once you see the object on the tracks, if it stays where it is its already too late.
Happened? The current Sydney metro is driverless.
@Ugly: A timely reminder how ambitious (wasteful) your plan would be, and what a total waste of money when other projects are already being put on hold
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/extra-trains-for-nsw-on-…
One suicide by train could derail (excuse the pun) the whole automation idea.
How so?
Trains driven by humans already crash into suicidal people multiple times a week in Australia?
We already have self-driving trains and cars, the second of which has already been involved in fatalities. The blowback? Surprisingly little. Tesla got a black eye, paid out a paltry fine (relative to their market cap), and Autopilot was delayed. By now, people have already moved onto complaining about Cybertruck pricing. Automation will happen whether we want it or not.
As for people getting killed by driverless trains, this already happens with human-operated trains. Automated cars and trains don't have to be perfect, they just have to be better (or at least as good) as what we have now.
CyberMurning on 17/08/2022 - 17:32 Comment score below threshold.
